MP Racism in Multiplayer

[Younes]

Don't know about you, but i will never curse at people i don't know. People you know yes, because you know them.


This issue has more to do with moderation then putting a censor function. I don't think censoring each single word should be a thing.

I think people should be able to use those words. It's up to them to face the consequences of using them. As soon as community servers become a thing, i doubt this will be an issue.

 

[helari]

bro its just a word bro you're infringing on freedom of speech!

edit: I mean it's not gamers who are more likely statistically to commit certain crimes, have lower intelligence quotients or commit terror attacks.

 

[Younes]

bro its just a word bro you're infringing on freedom of speech!

I hope you're joking right there.

 

[coc]

The only moderation that is necessary is a vote-kick function. If the group of people you are immediately playing with doesn't want to put up with you, then they should be able to kick you. If they don't care, or are having a laugh alongside you, then that's fine as well.
Team games are social games. What is acceptable to one group is unacceptable in another. Give people the tools to self-moderate; there is no need to impose a top-down morality moderator.

Maybe you don't think -ism jokes are funny. You, however, are not the sole arbiter of humor. Let an in-group enjoy its jokes. Stop trying to micromanage what other people say and do.

 

[Younes]

The only moderation that is necessary is a vote-kick function. If the group of people you are immediately playing with doesn't want to put up with you, then they should be able to kick you. If they don't care, or are having a laugh alongside you, then that's fine as well.
Team games are social games. What is acceptable to one group is unacceptable in another. Give people the tools to self-moderate; there is no need to impose a top-down morality moderator.

Maybe you don't think -ism jokes are funny. You, however, are not the sole arbiter of humor. Let an in-group enjoy its jokes. Stop trying to micromanage what other people say and do.

Servers are not public domain. There isn't some kind of democracy that decides what is allowed or not.

If a server provider tells you to not do certain things, in this case taleworlds you will abide by the rules. If not you will face the consequences of your actions.

This has nothing to do with humor. Stop trying to put racism behind humor when it's not.

 

[coc]

Servers are not public domain. There isn't some kind of democracy that decides what is allowed or not.

If a server provider tells you to not do certain things, in this case taleworlds you will abide by the rules. If not you will face the consequences of your actions.

This has nothing to do with humor. Stop trying to put racism behind humor when it's not.

Taleworlds outlines what isn't allowed: "Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws."

Barring legal definitions, much of this is subjective to the people involved. Having a third-party review it after-the-fact and make a decision is, in my opinion, less accurate than letting the immediate group (who would have a better feel for the situation) make that decision in the form of a vote kick.

 

[Younes]

Taleworlds outlines what isn't allowed: "Content which is defamatory, abusive, hateful, threatening, spam or spam-like, likely to offend, contains adult or objectionable content, contains personal information of others, risks copyright infringement, encourages unlawful activity, or otherwise violates any laws."

Barring legal definitions, much of this is subjective to the people involved. Having a third-party review it after-the-fact and make a decision is, in my opinion, less accurate than letting the immediate group (who would have a better feel for the situation) make that decision in the form of a vote kick.

Taleworlds can easily look at the logs and see the context of everything. The fact is that taleworlds can prohibit the use of certain things in their servers.

You saying the immediate group should decide on that is absurd. This is the kind of behavior that wouldn't work because of the very nature of medieval games and their communities.

If a server says: "Don't do that" you are to obey. If you don't you can just leave the server. You have to remember that not using this kind of slurs or whatever the server is prohibiting is a choice. You have the choice to not use them. Or if you do face the consequences.

 

[coc]

Taleworlds can easily look at the logs and see the context of everything. The fact is that taleworlds can prohibit the use of certain things in their servers.

Heavy disagree. If I'm playing with my friend and he accidentally shoots me in the back of the head during a melee and I toss an insult at him, we both understand that I'm not meaningfully insulting him. Another player on my team may see the word and report me. A moderation board will review the chat log and, without context, assuming I was maliciously insulting my friend.

You saying the immediate group should decide on that is absurd. This is the kind of behavior that wouldn't work because of the very nature of medieval games and their communities.

I'm not sure what you're implying here. If you're implying that the broader community does not view this stuff as worthy of kicking or banning a player, then that's fine. I see no reason for a higher power to dictate to the community what it should and should not accept.

If a server says: "Don't do that" you are to obey. If you don't you can just leave the server. You have to remember that not using this kind of slurs or whatever the server is prohibiting is a choice. You have the choice to not use them. Or if you do face the consequences.

The server hasn't banned any words. The server has banned intentions. Point me to a bad-word list.

 

[Greedalicious]

I hope you're joking right there.

Considering how many time people have said they have free speach to say whatever they want on a private server that I paid for, I'm pretty sure hes not. The "I have free speach to say whatever I want!" play is one of the dumbest things on the internet...

The only moderation that is necessary is a vote-kick function. If the group of people you are immediately playing with doesn't want to put up with you, then they should be able to kick you. If they don't care, or are having a laugh alongside you, then that's fine as well.

Until me and my group kick you from the Skirmish match because you didnt win that 1v6. We outnumber you, so we can do it right? No way of stopping us. People would do that quite abit on warband servers, they wanted to play privately so anytime someone joined a server, they would just votekick or voteban them. That was on private servers though and you could always contact the admins to have them punished for it.

I doubt anyone has ever heard someone say ***** and then burst into tears and killed themself... but seing some 12 year old spam the n word non stop then throwing out whatever edgy word he read on 4chan is frustrating and some people dont want to deal with that **** so they leave. Its not about having a thin skin its about being annoyed by loud mouthed morons.

 

[coc]

Until me and my group kick you from the Skirmish match because you didnt win that 1v6. We outnumber you, so we can do it right? No way of stopping us. People would do that quite abit on warband servers, they wanted to play privately so anytime someone joined a server, they would just votekick or voteban them. That was on private servers though and you could always contact the admins to have them punished for it.

Agreed that there is not an ideal solution. I am arguing for my personal preference, and willing to acknowledge the shortcomings of it.

 

[Younes]

Heavy disagree. If I'm playing with my friend and he accidentally shoots me in the back of the head during a melee and I toss an insult at him, we both understand that I'm not meaningfully insulting him. Another player on my team may see the word and report me. A moderation board will review the chat log and, without context, assuming I was maliciously insulting my friend.

You can send a message on steam, or communicate it to him while talking on third party software. There is a limit to how anyone can review something, just like the way you describe your system it wouldn't take into consideration the same thing you describe.

This is the same for any videogame. Bannerlord is not an exception.

I'm not sure what you're implying here. If you're implying that the broader community does not view this stuff as worthy of kicking or banning a player, then that's fine. I see no reason for a higher power to dictate to the community what it should and should not accept.

The reason why a higher power can dictate what people say on their server, is because they pay for the server and own it.

The higher power you describe is taleworlds, the developers of the game. Not some random group of people.

The server hasn't banned any words. The server has banned intentions. Point me to a bad-word list.

The server can prohibit any kind of slurs, which can be considered hateful. I'm not talking about just the magic n word. I'm talking about ALL of them.
It's your choice to use them. If you can't communicate with another human being without using any kind of hateful, threatening words then something is wrong.

Obviously common sense takes a big role into this. Some words are more hateful then others. Calling someone an idiot isn't as offending as some other things you could say.

 

[Greedalicious]

Agreed that there is not an ideal solution. I am arguing for my personal preference, and willing to acknowledge the shortcomings of it.

Wish everyone would discuss topics like this

 

[Younes]

Considering how many time people have said they have free speach to say whatever they want on a private server that I paid for, I'm pretty sure hes not. The "I have free speach to say whatever I want!" play is one of the dumbest things on the internet...

BUT MUH FREE SPEECH DUDE

 

[Greedalicious]

BUT MUH FREE SPEECH DUDE

"Lol he kicked Hitler_did_nothing_wrong. Admins a nazi"
Adminning is fun!

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

Just censor words with ****s and have a teamkill threshold of like 300 dmg that autokicks. Problems solved.

 

[Younes]

Don't censor the words, prohibit them. People learn a lesson more when you ban them then by just putting a censor.

 

[coc]

You can send a message on steam, or communicate it to him while talking on third party software. There is a limit to how anyone can review something, just like the way you describe your system it wouldn't take into consideration the same thing you describe.

This is the same for any videogame. Bannerlord is not an exception.

Right. Which is why I'm saying that the people in the match are in the best position to decide this - not a review panel. It is far less likely that all of my teammates misread the atmosphere and intention of **** talk and decide to collectively kick/censor me, than it is for an individual review who wasn't there to do the same.

The reason why a higher power can dictate what people say on their server, is because they pay for the server and own it.

The higher power you describe is taleworlds, the developers of the game. Not some random group of people.

The higher power I describe is not Taleworlds. Taleworlds has a terms of service, and it prohibits things which are clear (PII, copyright infringement, content which violates a law) and things which are subjective (offensive content, threatening content, objectionable content). I am pushing back against moderation which is disassociated with the immediate context of a situation because the words we use and how we use them are highly contextual and any blanket policy, combined with a third-party evaluation, will result in false impressions and unjust punishments.

The server can prohibit any kind of slurs, which can be considered hateful. I'm not talking about just the magic n word. I'm talking about ALL of them.
It's your choice to use them. If you can't communicate with another human being without using any kind of hateful, threatening words then something is wrong.

Obviously common sense takes a big role into this. Some words are more hateful then others. Calling someone an idiot isn't as offending as some other things you could say.

The server hasn't banned any specific words.

Wish everyone would discuss topics like this

I think a good compromise might be to let the players mediate social content, and have a report function for griefing content that damages the ability to play the game (teamkilling, repeatedly opening the door on siege, etc), but I am wary of where that distinction is drawn. Something to explore, though.

 

[Younes]

Right. Which is why I'm saying that the people in the match are in the best position to decide this - not a review panel. It is far less likely that all of my teammates misread the atmosphere and intention of **** talk and decide to collectively kick/censor me, than it is for an individual review who wasn't there to do the same.

Well no, review panels are supposed to forward the report for inspection. Not just ban people when someone gets reported. I'm not pushing for a third party software to ban people. What i understand under a report panel is a reporting tool that will forward the report and will be done under manual review. This is obviously a big issue with taleworlds doing this for all servers, but when community servers become a thing, this shouldn't be much of an issue anymore.

The higher power I describe is not Taleworlds. Taleworlds has a terms of service, and it prohibits things which are clear (PII, copyright infringement, content which violates a law) and things which are subjective (offensive content, threatening content, objectionable content). I am pushing back against moderation which is disassociated with the immediate context of a situation because the words we use and how we use them are highly contextual and any blanket policy, combined with a third-party evaluation, will result in false impressions and unjust punishments.

Advocating for a nazi regime in the middle of the game and then claiming it supposed to be for a friend isn't the same. Don't say those things in the chat, its as simple as that.

The server hasn't banned any specific words.

Prohibiting racial slurs is the same as banning words. We all have common sense in here and know what type of things can't be said i mean come on.

I think a good compromise might be to let the players mediate social content, and have a report function for griefing content that damages the ability to play the game (teamkilling, repeatedly opening the door on siege, etc), but I am wary of where that distinction is drawn. Something to explore, though.

In warband admins were constantly online on the servers, the players will not have to mediate the social content. If community servers are out, this will again be less of a problem.

 

[Sundeki]

Let's put it this way, what is there to be lost if people got chat banned for example for saying racist things.

Because most of what someone can be banned for 'racism' isn't necessarily racist, leading to people getting banned over misunderstandings. There are clear cut examples which are easy to enforce, and then there's all the subjectively defined and open to interpretation stuff that goes into banter.

This issue has more to do with moderation then putting a censor function. I don't think censoring each single word should be a thing.

I think people should be able to use those words. It's up to them to face the consequences of using them. As soon as community servers become a thing, i doubt this will be an issue.

What utility is there is that, though? This is the sort of thing I argue against most of all. If there is a problem, in this case the broader problem is people being offended by chat content, then the most straightforward and least resource intensive way to resolve this problem is to create a chat filter that is on by default and toggleable, and an easily accessible personal mute function that actually works. This maximizes the ability of players to see, and not to see, what they do and don't want to see. Why is central moderation of a chat needed, if what I have just outlined works properly?

 

[coc]

Well no, review panels are supposed to forward the report for inspection. Not just ban people when someone gets reported. I'm not pushing for a third party software to ban people. What i understand under a report panel is a reporting tool that will forward the report and will be done under manual review. This is obviously a big issue with taleworlds doing this for all servers, but when community servers become a thing, this shouldn't be much of an issue anymore.

I'm actually referring to Taleworlds (or the review panel, or potentially even the guy who submits the report) as the "third party" here, not a software. The guy who said BadWord and the person (or people) he was speaking to are the first parties. Anyone else is external to the situation.
EDIT: And to clarify, I'm okay with whatever moderation style or tool a community server wants to implement. A community has the right to self-moderation. Here, I'm arguing for what Taleworld's style of moderation for its own official servers should be, guided by their current content policy.

Advocating for a nazi regime in the middle of the game and then claiming it supposed to be for a friend isn't the same. Don't say those things in the chat, its as simple as that.
Prohibiting racial slurs is the same as banning words. We all have common sense in here and know what type of things can't be said i mean come on.

This brings me back to humor. Like it or not, there are plenty of people who enjoy jokes that you or I might find unsavory. If you get into a game as the sixth guy to a stack of five friends, and they have an off-color sense of humor, you're going to get offended. I don't think there's any reason they shouldn't be able to use the most immediate tool available to them (the in-game team chat) to joke around.
There is, of course, a difference between targeted abuse and in-group humor - but you cannot make that distinction based solely on the content of what is said. Nor do I believe humor should be subject to moderation, regardless of its content - only its intent.