Polish History and suggestions thread.

[niczego]

Seeing as it's been a while since I showed up I decided to gather all the info put together in the previous topic into one post (having free time helps).

In the year 1200 Poland found itself briefly unified, at least theoretically. Mieszko (known as “the old”) successfully forced his nephews, cousins and powerful landowners to acknowledge his right to being Sovereign of Poland ( He is titled variously in the chronicles as “Duke”, “Grand Duke” or “Prince”. It would be nearly a century until somebody was crowned king of Poland again) though at a cost and Poland would soon be split in various independent principalities fighting amongst each other.

Fortunately this is mount and blade so were not interested in that.

Princeps: Mieszko the Old (77 years old). coat of arms
Family: Son – Wladyslaw Spindleshanks, Daughters- Elzbieta (48 married to Conrad of Landsberg) Wierzchoslawa (47? Married to Frederick lord of Bitsch) Judith (46? Married to Bernhard Count of Anhalt) Anasztazja (37? Married to Bogislaw Duke of Pomerania) Mieszko Tanglefoot, Leszek the white, Konrad (Nephews).

Duke Wladyslaw Spindleshanks (38?) coat of arms
Married to Lucia of Rugen (25? Daughter of Jaromir Prince of Rugen) Mieszko Tanglefoot Leszek the white, Konrad (cousins) Mieszko the old (father) Elzbieta, Wierzchoslawa, Judith, Anastazja (sisters)

Duke Leszek the White (15?) coat of arms
Family: Mother Helen of Znojmo, Brother Konrad, Mieszko the old (uncle)  Mieszko Tanglefoot, Elzbieta, Wierzchoslawa, Judith, Anastazja, Wladyslaw Spindleshanks (cousins)

Duke Konrad: 13(?)coat of arms
Family: Helen of Znojmo (mother) Leszek the White (brother) Mieszko Tanglefoot, Elzbieta, Wierzchoslawa, Judith, Anastazja, Wladyslaw Spindleshanks (cousins)

Duke Mieszko Tanglefoot: (62?) coat of arms
Family: Ludmila (wife, suspected member of Premyslid dynasty unknown age) Casimir (son) Ludmilla, Agnes, Euphrosyne, Ryksa (daughters, don’t know age or fate) Wladyslaw Spindleshanks, Elzbieta, Wierzchoslawa, Judith, Anastzja (cousins) Mieszko the old (uncle)

Duke Kazimierz (21?) coat of arms
Family: Mieszko Tanglefoot (father) Ludmila (mother) Ludmilla, Agnes, Euphrosyne, Ryksa (sisters) Jaroslaw, Henry the bearded, Adelieda (cousins)

Duke Boleslaw the Tall (73?) coat of arms
Family: Mieszko Tanglefoot (brother) Christina (50s? wife, suspected member of the Everstein family) Jaroslaw (son from first marriage) Adelieda (35 married to Diepold 2 Duke of Bohemia?) Henry the Bearded (Son) Wladyslaw Spindleshanks, Elzbieta, Wierzchoslawa, Judith, Anastzja (cousins) Ludmilla, Agnes, Euphrosyne, Ryksa (nieces) Casimir (nephew)

Bishop Jaroslaw (bishop of Wroclaw) (49?) coat of arms
Family: Boleslaw the tall (father) Adelieda (sister) Henry the bearded (brother) Casimir, Ludmilla, Agnes, Euphrosyne, Ryksa (cousins) Mieszko Tanglefoot (uncle)

Lord Henry the Bearded (32?) coat of arms Heir of Boleslaw the Tall.
Family: Hedwig (26 wife, daughter to Count Berthold of Andechs) Boleslaw the Tall (father) Christina (mother) Adelieda (sister) Jaroslaw (brother) Casimir, Ludmilla, Agnes, Euphrosyne, Ryksa (cousins) Mieszko Tanglefoot (uncle)

Governor Sambor (50?) coat of arms
Family: Msciwoj (brother) Married, unknown name and descent (Bozena?).

Lord Msciwoj (40?) coat of arms Duke Sambors Heir.
Family: Sambor (brother) Swinislawa(30? wife Related to Ratibor of Pomerania?)

Wojewodowie (singular: Wojewoda) (Voivode?)

Goworek Voivode of Sandomierz: Allied to Leszek the white and Konrad, hated by virtually everyone else. Suggested Coat of arms.

Mikolaj Gryfita Voivode of Krakow: The man responsible for the agreement that saw Mieszko the old take Krakow in return for accepting Leszek as his successor in that province. Seems to have been in conflict with Goworek. Related to Bishop Fulko, cousins?  Suggested Coat of arms

Hieronim Jarost Voivode of Kalisz: Suggested Coat of arms

Krystyn Voivode of Plock: Suggested Coat of arms

Archbishop (seat in Gniezno) Henryk Kietlicz: A firm believer in the Gregorian reforms. Seems to have been in good relations Mieszko the old, in conflict with Wladyslaw spindleshanks. Suggested Coat of arms

Bishops:

Fulko (seat in Krakow): 2 brothers Stefan (castellan of Krakow) and Stepota. Unclear relation with Mikolaj (brothers, cousins?) Reformer, wanted to be an archbishop (conflict with Kietlicz?) Suggested Coat of arms

Wit z Chotela (seat in Plock): Brother: Dzierzko. Seems to have been an opponent to Mieszko the old. Suggested Coat of arms

Stefan (seat in Wloclawek)): Reformer. Suggested Coat of arms

Arnold (seat in Poznan): Ally to Wladyslaw Spindleshanks, enemy of Henryk Kietlicz. Suggested Coat of arms

Cyprian (seat in Lubusz): Ally to Boleslaw the Tall and Henry the bearded. Is credited with destroying the last pagan shrines in Silesia (zealous + crusade like quests?) Suggested Coat of arms

Castellan Stefan: Brothers: Bishop Fulko, Stepota. Cousin: Voivode Mikolaj. Suggested Coat of arms

Castellan Beron: Son: Karol. Suggested Coat of Arms

Captain Stepota: Brothers: Bishop Fulko, castellan Stefan. Cousin: Voivode Mikolaj. Suggested Coat of arms

Captain Dzierzko (took part in the 3 Crusade): Brother: Bishop Wit z Chotela. Suggested Coat of arms

Captain Karol: Father Beron. Suggested Coat of Arms

Map of the area, more or less correct time frame presenting many settlements.

Spoiler

Suggested Settlements:
Towns: Krakow, Wroclaw, Poznan.

Castles: Lubusz, Opole, Cieszyn, Sandomierz, Lublin, Drohiczyn, Czersk, Plock, Wloclawek, Sieradz, Kalisz, Gniezno, Dobrzyn, Oswiecim, Gdansk, Tczew, Glogow, Santok.

Villages: Tyniec, Sacz, Mogila, Olesnica, Brzeg, Ujscie, Srem, Cedynia, Olesno, Orlowo, Kielce, Lukow, Liw, Sochaczew, Lowicz, Brescz, Ruda, Konin, Trzemieszno, Sierpe, Ibramowice, Lebork, Starogard, Zagan, Miedzyrzecz.

Here they are on the map:

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List of territory of each individual duke (to the best of my knowledge. Lands for others would have to be decided as quite often they were Bishop/Voivode of a city which was the dukes seat of power.
Bright Red would be Mieszko the Old.
Dark Red : Wladyslaw Spindleshanks
Brown: Leszek the White
Grey: Konrad
Dark Blue: Mieszko Tanglefoot
Green: Kazimierz
Dark Yellow: Boleslaw the Tall
Light Blue: Jaroslaw
Black: Sambor

List of Possible faces:

Spoiler

Mieszko the old
0x0000000fff00134136db6dbb656db6db00000000001eb6c80000000000000000

Wladyslaw Spindleshanks
0x0000000aa800254136db6db9756db6db00000000001eb6db0000000000000000

Leszek the white
0x000000000000100f26db6db9646db6db00000000001d26e20000000000000000

Konrad
0x000000003900101016db6dbb1bedb6db00000000001d36f30000000000000000

Mieszko Tanglefoot
0x0000000f7900229326db6dbb2d6db6db00000000001f36db0000000000000000

Kazimierz
0x000000026300219426db6dbb258db6db00000000001e36eb0000000000000000

Boleslaw the Tall
0x0000000fef0032c326db6dbbad6dbadb00000000001eb6e30000000000000000

Henryk the bearded
0x00000006ef00321226db6dbbad6db8db00000000001e46e30000000000000000

Jaroslaw
0x0000000e0f00324e28db6e3ba56db6dc00000000001e36e30000000000000000

Sambor
0x0000000c9700518476db8e3b156db71c00000000001e36d30000000000000000

Msciwoj
0x00000009b000220516db8e3b156db71c00000000001e36e30000000000000000

Voivode Goworek
0x0000000f6300301226db6dbd1e6db6db00000000001cb6eb0000000000000000

Mikolaj Gryfita
0x0000000ea900225216db6ecb6545a8a300000000001d48f20000000000000000

Hieronim Jarost
0x0000000da900318507136e38ed6e38e300000000001d38ec0000000000000000

Krystyn
0x0000000bae00104540dc6e372d8db6db00000000001eb6eb0000000000000000

Archbishop Henryk Kietlicz
0x0000000f7110200e36db6db565cdb6db00000000001f36db0000000000000000

Bishop Fulko
0x0000000e2900214e169b6ecb65ada6e300000000001dc8e20000000000000000

Wit z Chotela
0x0000000db110200e28dd6dbbae21aaeb00000000001cd6ab0000000000000000

Bishop Stefan
0x0000000db110300e36a46a3aecada49400000000001f44aa0000000000000000

Arnold
0x0000000d3110514e24d591c6dc89c92400000000001d24920000000000000000

Cyprian
0x0000000dc310114e371b8db95351d4ad00000000001d26d30000000000000000

Castellan Stefan: 0x000000095f002192051b6a37acc5b6dc00000000001e26e10000000000000000

Castellan Beron: 0x0000000e4a00325236db6e37654dbadb00000000001db6db0000000000000000

Captain Stepota: 0x000000065500204434db6a376c8db6db00000000001db6e20000000000000000

Captain Dzierzko: 0x0000000da90012ce49247239246db8db00000000001cc9230000000000000000

Captain Karol: 0x00000005e000318536db6e39656db8db00000000001d36db0000000000000000

Lucia of Rugen (wife of spindleshanks) 0x0000000393003004091b6dc4db6db6db00000000001e38dc0000000000000000

Ludmila (wife of tanglefoot) 0x0000000a31000004191b49c91c6db6db00000000001db89c0000000000000000

Christina(wife to boleslaw the tall) 0x0000000c2e00100447194e491d95b72300000000001cb6cb0000000000000000

Hedwig (wife to henry the bearded) 0x00000003c6000004471b4dc8dc65c6e300000000001d36db0000000000000000

Wife of sambor (Bozena?) 0x0000000bfc002004449b71c71b8a291b00000000001db6db0000000000000000

Swinislawa (wife of msciwoj) 0x000000075700200446e48e49238e472300000000001da8e30000000000000000

Daughters of tanglefoot:
Euphrosyne0x00000003080000010cdb49d29c46256400000000001d36460000000000000000

Ryksa 0x000000010000300226986a56dc8da56300000000001db6840000000000000000

The Polish lord list is severely lacking in marriageable females so I ended up listing the last two as possible maidens as I found no info on their fate... for the female avatars roaming Europe there are plenty of eligible bachelors (or widowers, depends)

Reconstructions:

From the illustrations by Mr. Heath:
Urban and Rural Levies plus sergeants and professional infantry:

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Armoured Cavalry and Knights:

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From Osprey I borrow the following:

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The guy in a white robe is a member of the Order of Dobrzyn (Dobrin) a short lived monastic order created in the early thirteenth century to protect Cistercian monks in their Christianisation missions amongst the Prussians. Officially recognized in 1228, largely disbanded in 1235 and the last members dying during a last stand in 1240.

And here I have various others:

Spoiler

And here are others, usually from osprey presenting other nationalities but using elements of gear that could/would have been used in Poland at the time.

Spoiler

To really get the image of a Polish knight from the period we would need a type of armour not yet in the mod, a long sleeved hauberk reaching to or even below the knees with an even longer robe underneath, visible where the mail no longer covers the legs.
As a general rule Poland at this time imported most of its equipment and designs from the west (mostly Germany for obvious reasons) but the early 13th century was also a period of intensified activity of Polish armies in the east where they often were hired or appeared as allies of one Ruthenian contender or another so undoubtedly such men would end up bringing Ruthenian gear home, maybe even ruthenian smiths.

And there would be a lot of missiles, a lot. Many of the infantry at the time were archers or crossbowmen and even those who were not carried a wide array of javelins, throwing axes/maces and other fun things to make their enemies life miserable.

Coat of arms:

Polish heraldry was in its infancy at the time and yet here I’ve collected some of the oldest if the creators feel like adding more to the already available player banners:

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The Order of Dobrzyń (Fratres Milites Christi de Dobrzyń)

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This one is nearer the 1250's but you will admit it is too cool to not mention:

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I mean I thought that such coat of arms were the stuff of fantasy and here you find out that there was a family that used the above.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Very nice piece of research! I especially liked that you included the relations between important men.

 

[Korinov]

Huge thanks. I was planning to do something like this but never found the time.

Now, regarding more 'practical' matters... how many different regional troop trees should we include? I suppose (just suppose) the urban troop tree could be the same for all towns ("polish") but I guess it won't be so for the rural ones. At least there should be some difference between western and eastern areas. What about professionals and nobles?

 

[quapitty]

Very nice research indeed! If you don't mind I'll use some of your player suggested heraldry for new player banners to come....

 

[niczego]

Very nice research indeed! If you don't mind I'll use some of your player suggested heraldry for new player banners to come....

Absolutly! I posted them in the hopes that they might become banners.

Now, regarding more 'practical' matters... how many different regional troop trees should we include? I suppose (just suppose) the urban troop tree could be the same for all towns ("polish") but I guess it won't be so for the rural ones. At least there should be some difference between western and eastern areas. What about professionals and nobles?

Before anything else I should probably stress that I have no experience nor knowledge of modding and coding and such so I can only guess as to what is practical.

Poland has been a  „melting pot” of nations for most of its history. Not as visible as during the Renaissance but still. I recall an anecdote about how a man from the west sent a complaint to Rome about how a city had a church, tserkov and synagogue all within walking distance of each other. Poland was home to Poles(naturally) Germans, Ruthenians, Gypsies, Jews, Armenians, various Turko and Hunno ethnic nomads and a lot more.

For simplicities sake than It would probably be best to simply have „urban Poles”, „western Poles” and „eastern Poles” with the only real difference being the type of equipment used by the recruits drawn from the appropriate settlements more than anything else.

Maybe a village or two somewhere with a nomadic troop tree to represent the nomads (settled in Poland by its rulers to serve as light cavalry, messengers and executioners)?   

Equipment wise I'd see the rural troops being mostly light infantry armed with bows and/or spears, axes and various „thrown” weapons. Urban troops could probably be equipped much like their western European counterparts ergo: crossbows, spears and medium armour.
Maybe in one or both of the lists have an option to turn a combatant into a horseman. Maybe something like the „strzelcy”  you could find in Total War.

About professional infantry and nobles I don't see a reason why they should differentiate too much from their western counterparts, the biggest difference would probably be visual.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

We already had some discussions about Poland, I'll look for them because I think I saved them.

About troop trees, there's two basic distinctions: the more western-like troops especially from Silesia, and the others. So I suggest two professional troop trees, one Silesian and others, Poles. Then, locally, maybe we should follow this map:

Polans, Mazovians, Vistulans and Silesians. And Pommeranians. But I'm no expert on the matter.

 

[niczego]

About troop trees, there's two basic distinctions: the more western-like troops especially from Silesia, and the others. So I suggest two professional troop trees, one Silesian and others, Poles.

If I'd want to be nitpicky I'd mention the Mazovians as being the most "eastern" in their appearance...

Polans, Mazovians, Vistulans and Silesians. And Pommeranians. But I'm no expert on the matter.

No problem with Mazovians, Silisians and Pommeranians but rather than Polans and Vistulans it would be "Wielkopolanie" and "Malopolanie" respectively. The translation might be a bit tricky as they literally translate into "Great Poland" and "Small Poland" though the actual meaning at the time, apparently, was more along the lines of "Closer" and "Further" though in latin it was written as "Polonia Maior" and "Polonia Minor"... so I'm afraid that writing it properly in english is something I'm not sure of. 


All that said I realized I made a bit of a mistake in not placing any of the settlements in the part of Poland where Duke Kazimierz was in charge... 

Taking that and the fact (which I only noticed) that Slupsk is (in the mod) a village belonging to Denmark I'd suggest switching Slupsk and Sczytno and replacing them with Oswiecim as a castle and Bytom as its village.

 

[Korinov]

For next release I'm planning to do this:

Villages: "western polish" + "eastern polish" + bohemian rural TT in the area of bohemian influence (easy one as we already have a troop tree made for them).
Towns: polish militia.
Proffesional: Silesian (western) and "Polish" (eastern)
Noble: polish.

Maybe in future releases we could include slovaks (southern polish AND maybe northern hungarian domains) and some nomads to give more variety. But for now, I think this will suffice.

 

[niczego]

I'm not sure whether Bohemian influence in Poland was strong enough to warrant adding them.

Apart from that no complaints or whining from me on the list, especially if the nomads and Slovaks are added.
Though with the later wouldn't it be more appropriate for it to be "In northern Hungary and maybe some in southern Poland"?

 

[Korinov]

Fine.

About the troop trees... we could use a little brainstorming here. Here's an initial proposal (not definitive at all):

Western rural:

1. Serf
1. 1. Freeman (?)
1. 1. 1. Axeman
1. 1. 1. 1. Veteran Axeman -> Tennant?
1. 1. 2. Spearman
1. 1. 2. 1. Veteran Spearman -> Tennant?
1. 2. Skirmisher (thrown weapons: javelins, darts?)
1. 2. 1. Hunter (bowman)
1. 2. 2. Javelinman

Eastern rural:

1. Serf
1. 1. Freeman (?)
1. 1. 1. Axeman
1. 1. 1. 1. Veteran Axeman -> Horseman?
1. 1. 2. Spearman
1. 1. 2. 1. Veteran Spearman -> Horseman?
1. 2. Skirmisher (thrown weapons: javelins, darts?)
1. 2. 1. Hunter (bowman)
1. 2. 1. 1. Mounted archer?
1. 2. 2. Javelinman

 

[niczego]

I like it. Are both axemen and spearmen meant to evolve into tenants/horsemen?

About other troop trees than I'm thinking the Urban troop tree might as well be similar to a German urban troop tree like this one?

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Militia - Militia Spearman - Veteran Militia Spearman - Swordman - Loricatus
        |
          - Crossbow Militia - Veteran Crossbow Militia

Likewise with the professional tree:

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Footman - Solidarus - Sergeant - Clipeatus - Man at Arms
            |
              - Crossbowman - Veteran Crossbowman - Mounted Crossbowman(strzelec?)

Though maybe for the eastern provinces replace the crossbow with bows?

With all the German names in the noble tree I began replacing them with Polish names, and I think I may have gone overboard:
Pacholek - Paz (page) - Giermek (squire) - Szlachcic (noble) - Rycerz (knight) - Druzynnik (member of the druzyna)

I've seen both "pacholek" and "paz" translated as "page" though they don't seem to be different kinds of men, pacholeks seemed to have been the lowest of the nobles retinue so it seems to be similar to how the Germans have both "page" and "knecht".

Good? Not good?

 

[Korinov]

Good, I'd rather have it this way to avoid confusion:

Polish Page -> Giermek -> Szlachcic -> Polish Knight -> Druzynnik

About the rural troops... the western ones are intended to evolve into tennants, the eastern into horsemen. But it's just a possibility, nothing definitive, I'm absolutely open to suggestions.

 

[niczego]

I was confused as in both eastern and western we seem to have both axemen and spearmen evolving into another level (horsemen and tennants). Is this intentional or does it mean that it hasn't been decided yet?

As a whole I think that the rural tree is a good one.

PS Do you want more Polish names in the other troop trees?

 

[Frajda]

Awesome work! I downloaded the later version but didn't play it... Now I think I will give it a chance, I mean if Poland appeared on the map(is it included in the new version?).

Brawo i dziękuje

 

[quapitty]

Awesome work! I downloaded the later version but didn't play it... Now I think I will give it a chance, I mean if Poland appeared on the map(is it included in the new version?).

Brawo i dziękuje

No, next release maybe or the one after that.... Check the changelog thread for more info on the different versions.

 

[Korinov]

I'm being unable to implement two separate professional troop trees (silesian - eastern) since the silesian, being considerend the "main" one, just "overwrites" the other one. So in the end I'll probably include a single professional tree, with the option of both archers and crossbowmen.

 

[kdm]

Somehow it does not seem right to me that bishops/archbishops lead war parties in-game. Especially for Poland - yes there are many examples of this happening in western Europe, e.g. Philip of Dreux good example but I believe this was unheard of in eastern Europe.

I think we should review this practice. It's nice to have clergy ingame but they have to wait until religion is somehow implemented in this mod

 

[wfox]

Good, I'd rather have it this way to avoid confusion:

Polish Page -> Giermek -> Szlachcic -> Polish Knight -> Druzynnik

About the rural troops... the western ones are intended to evolve into tennants, the eastern into horsemen. But it's just a possibility, nothing definitive, I'm absolutely open to suggestions.

Actually Druzynnicy, Rycerze (Knights) and Szlachta "evolved" from each other. My knowledge unfortunately isn't too great, but Druzyna, being too expensive, slowly started receiving land from rulers, becoming knights somewhere around 1030-1050 (though I'm not sure how long it took for them to be gone entirely).

Szlachta, on the other hand, replaced knights much later (most common image of a Szlachcic is with a sabre and maybe a pistol), so at the time only knights fit well.

Of course I would appreciate someone backing me up with solid info, or correcting me 

 

[NikeBG]

Btw, Poland's already implemented, but I found some nice maps here, so I thought I'd post it anyway.