New Update Killed Lancers?

[Spanky89]

I think that at full gallop, a lance thrust from horseback should kill an unarmoured person pretty much all the time.

Reducing the speed bonus was a mistake I believe - speed bonus should be more important, with less base damage from lancing to compensate. That way we don't have ridiculous sideways pokes while at a trot doing the same damage as a forward thrust at full speed.

Yes the speed dmg is the worste part here... in past you didnt need much speed and you could kill a person easy with a poke (shouldent be like that) now you can even be galloping at full speed and hit somone and they wont even die!!! thats insane, speed dmg should be the most important thing to a lancer!!!

 

[Spanky89]

Spoiler

I played a deathmatch when the patch was out, a lancer was leading the board all of the time. And it really was only lancing, on foot he didn't even care to block anything, he just wildly swung his sword about (and I actually died by that once , though on foot I killed him 95% of the time). First time I had an awlpike, I could beat him, but second round I was nord with my longest weapon being a Warspear, and he used the Jousting lance, and he seemed to be rather good at anticipating dodges. And he was poking, not couching.

So I voted that lancers aren't underpowered now. I still get killed in good armor by a single blow, much to my annoyance, and lancers are still capable of leading the scoreboard. It could be though because I played deathmatch, where the chaos often works to their advantage. A prepared line in battle will be harder to attack I presume.

BTW spanky, lancing itself wasn't overpowering. It was the people on the horses. They wore the best armor, got the best training, ... etc. Lancing simply allowed them to use all that to full potential, as it gives them the initiative, and such a dangerous tactic was allowed by their good armor. Even if you are right and I am wrong, it shouldn't be that way in the game.

edit: btw, I think you were playing along with us in that server... The player I meant was RussianLiberation, I think you joined too for a while (I know I killed you a few times in field by the river ). So you could see for yourself that lancing isn't underpowered. But most lancers are using the normal lances, not the jousting lances, I'd advise to try them.

another edit: goddammit, I accidently pressed 'no', I read the thread title 'New Update Killed Lancers?', and pressed no without reading the question...

Russian is very good, he and me had a server to ourselves for a while and was lancing, it was 1:1 ratio nearly all the way, in the end I lead about 2 kills on him when I left but he'd have probably caught up with me (i'm Shaytan btw, que insults).

What I notice is that some cavallery players still do well, myself, fredelios, russian etc and other names I regularly see topping the scoreboards.

Thats because these players (myself included) dont just rush about poking a stick at people, we've learned how other play styles counter us, found ways to counter that and make a real effort when we fight.

A lot of people say lancing takes no skill, well thats daft, of course it takes skill thats why it's always a few lancers leading the scoreboards, despite there being many other lancers in the game near the bottom with horrible K ratios, the hardest thing to face as a lancer is infantery (skilled infantery of course anything else is just kill padding).

There are a few key tactics you need to learn and really practice to be a good lancer, just like there are for every other play style, and it doesnt require a great lance, I only use that because it has greater reach.

The heavy lance has more damage and is frankly my favourite weapon, but it's hard to turn down the reach of a great lance when being countered by others using it and pikers on the ground.

Russian is one of the best lancers i've ever fought though, and he probably doesnt care much about the foot fighting becaus time spendt on foot is time wasted (in a way) he wants to get back on his horse and do what he enjoys doing, god knows thats how I feel when i'm spending two years exchanging blows on shields with some guy on foot, I keep hoping someone will come lance me in the back and get this boring running around over with.

Note that my opinion is not that lancing takes no skill. But lancing is something where you can easily get kills with even when you are a very poor lancer. On top of that it is extremely frustrating to get oneshotted in full armor, usually in the back. Which leads to lancer-hate. Because they can kill you without effort at times.

got most kils, but they ALSO HAVE MOST DEATHS!!! way more then any footman  twice deaths even.. ofc they are going to have more kils then aswell if they fight more!

Bad lancers end up with horrible K ratios in every game though, if you got your back turned anyone will kill you, if you constantly get killed in the back YOU'RE the bad player for letting it happen
u look at top players they mostly
Horsemen will always get more kills, because they get to the fights faster, thats simple logic.

i so agree, horseman always gets most kills because they are fastest into battle, if they got most kills,  they ALSO HAVE MOST DEATHS!!! way more then any footman  twice deaths even.. ofc they are going to have more kils then aswell if they fight more! I dont think lancers are overpwered. Lancing s very diffcult - and for noobs lancing now is impossible...i htink we have seen the end of lancers if no update commes now.

 

[Mage246]

I always laugh irl when I see someone riding around trying to couch, you just KNOW everyone and their mother is going to own him, wether on foot or in the saddle.

A guy with a 2 hander on foot has better reach.

This. Every so often you can get a couched lance kill, but you're still almost always better off with thrusting. You can't get enough range most of the time, and they'll kill your horse with 1 hit if they manage to outrange you, usually. Couched lancing is a great way to get yourself killed, it only works against people who have no idea you are there or are incapable of moving out of the way at the moment.

 

[Lord Rust]

At the moment skilled lancers do very well, but unskilled lancers get their asses handed to them.

Just like it is with skilled footmen, archers etc, it's currently very well balanced.

 

[Kaeli]

I played against Russian last night, and well the only hope of killing him i had on foot was that he would charge me head on so i could poke his horses head... If he just did the turn poke thingy. No way i hell i could get to him with my awlpike. And i do see myself as a fairly good pikeman. Its more about skill now then it used to be. I enjoy that Although the really good lancers i stand little chance against sadly. Unless ofcourse they charge head on.

 

[Lord Rust]

I played against Russian last night, and well the only hope of killing him i had on foot was that he would charge me head on so i could poke his horses head... If he just did the turn poke thingy. No way i hell i could get to him with my awlpike. And i do see myself as a fairly good pikeman. Its more about skill now then it used to be. I enjoy that Although the really good lancers i stand little chance against sadly. Unless ofcourse they charge head on.

When i'm unhorsed, I kill nearly EVERY horseman that comes from the front, it's pretty easy to predict where they'll turn.

But as I said, russian is one of the VERY best players i've ever played, and i've played a lot, so it's no wonder he'll own a lot of you.

I mean, usually in lancer vs lancer I win nearly every time, but russian? he and I know the exact same tricks and it's a crap shoot which of us wins whenever we meet, and yes i've faced him plenty of times dismounted with a lance and killed him, it's hard and he would often get me, but it's doable.

The fact that he and other skilled lancers get so many kills is as i've said previously, they move so fast between kills, a skilled footman has to run for 10-20 seconds where as we're on the next guy in 3-5 seconds usually.

There are a few guys who get me four in five times with a pike on foot, others who NEVER get me no matter what weapon they use, simply because I am able to out maneuver them.

If horsemen have to couch straight at people, they'll be useless, unless you extend the weapon lenght so that they'll always win, in which case they're over powered and dull.

At the moment lancers are very well balanced, please dont try to nerf or buff them anymore, it'll only end in disaster

 

[faigulla]

I unhorse most cavalry with just a simple/free spear and shield. I can't do the same to the really good ones, so I just tend to avoid them. When you can kill a lancer who has longer reach than you, on a horse, with just a spear and +100 ping, you are more than allowed to pat yourself on the back.

 

[Yoshi Murasaki]

It just takes more skill now to be lancer, instead of everyone stabbing you left and right. I see nothing wrong with that. I still see people getting stabbed (sometimes one-hit-kill, and when not it's still knockdown which should not be underestimated). And horsemen can still score the most kills.

The fact that lancing now requires more skill is not the problem of the game, it's a problem of people who got used to easy mode.

 

[kingofnoobia]

I played against Russian last night, and well the only hope of killing him i had on foot was that he would charge me head on so i could poke his horses head... If he just did the turn poke thingy. No way i hell i could get to him with my awlpike. And i do see myself as a fairly good pikeman. Its more about skill now then it used to be. I enjoy that Although the really good lancers i stand little chance against sadly. Unless ofcourse they charge head on.

When i'm unhorsed, I kill nearly EVERY horseman that comes from the front, it's pretty easy to predict where they'll turn.

But as I said, russian is one of the VERY best players i've ever played, and i've played a lot, so it's no wonder he'll own a lot of you.

I mean, usually in lancer vs lancer I win nearly every time, but russian? he and I know the exact same tricks and it's a crap shoot which of us wins whenever we meet, and yes i've faced him plenty of times dismounted with a lance and killed him, it's hard and he would often get me, but it's doable.

It is indeed doable, but I couldn't do it with a 150 reach warspear vs his jousting lance (about 200 reach?) . With an awlpike he's beatable though.

And indeed, most horsemen are easy to kill with an awlpike or even a warspear, that was one of the first things I could do when I got into warband.

About backraping, when I am walking around I am constantly alert for lancers, and without any action I spot them 95% of the time. But it is so very annoying when you are fighting one on one on foot, it's impossible then to look out for lancers. That is also the moment we get killed by archers.

And I am still convinced that unskilled lancers get better k:d than unskilled footmen (in deathmatches especially) for example. I can still get reasonable kd with lancer though I absolutely suck at it (with reasonable I just mean usually about 1). Though probably they usually attract more archer attention than footmen. And a very skilled lancer will also often get more kills than a very skilled footman. Perhaps his kd isn't that good, but usually lancers have a lot more kills.

 

[Lord Rust]

Of course they get more, they're more mobile.

Mobility on a battlefield is damn sexy, horses will always be more mobile you can't change that, not unless you simply remove them, and that better not happen because mounted combat is the only damn combat I enjoy in warband

But their K ratio's are often horrible, and usually a bad rider will have more deaths than your average footman, as he can run into spears more often

I'm convinced that a lot of these guys on foot shouting curses the loudest at the lancers, are people who got owned so badly by everyone when they tried it themselves they've given up and are now butthurt, becaues it goes both ways.

Personally I wish there were more lancers about, it's not nearly as much fun fighting footmen, either they just block you forever, or you stab them in the back, or you end up dehorsed or yatta yatta, sure I usually rank #1 if its a mostly footman fight, but so what, I play for fun not score.

With a field full of cavallery its more of a challenge, constantly having to watch your back, jousting head on etc, godamn awesome is what it is.

 

[kingofnoobia]

Of course they get more, they're more mobile.

Mobility on a battlefield is damn sexy, horses will always be more mobile you can't change that, not unless you simply remove them, and that better not happen because mounted combat is the only damn combat I enjoy in warband

But their K ratio's are often horrible, and usually a bad rider will have more deaths than your average footman, as he can run into spears more often

I'm convinced that a lot of these guys on foot shouting curses the loudest at the lancers, are people who got owned so badly by everyone when they tried it themselves they've given up and are now butthurt, becaues it goes both ways.

Personally I wish there were more lancers about, it's not nearly as much fun fighting footmen, either they just block you forever, or you stab them in the back, or you end up dehorsed or yatta yatta, sure I usually rank #1 if its a mostly footman fight, but so what, I play for fun not score.

With a field full of cavallery its more of a challenge, constantly having to watch your back, jousting head on etc, godamn awesome is what it is.

I do not complain about their mobility, it's just that that is in itself a great advantage, I do not think we can speak about lancers being underpowered right now.

And I like footmen duels most . It's simply a matter of taste. I have tried lancer and have been rather succesful with it, but I simply like footmen fights more.

Note that I no longer complain about lancers, only about their ability to kill me in one blow when I wear full armor. I think you can agree that that is not fair for footmen. Even when very alert you WILL be backraped a lot as a footman when you're in the middle of a fight. Lancers are FINE as they are now, I just want better armor (in general, not only vs lances).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNdK_z0OcvI

About the 4th time I post this. A lance does NOT pierce good armor like coat of plates (swadian brigandine is an improved version of cop). The damage done is mostly blunt shock damage, which is not to be underestimated, but which also doesn't kill you in a single blow. Footmen in full armor should be able to resist 3 couched lance strikes at least, and about 5 thrusts, even at full gallop.

 

[Lord Rust]

You currently can't one-hit-kill someone in good armour with a lance.

You need 2 hits, where one has to be a direct hit from full speed, trust me, i've seen it happen several hundred times this week alone

In fact, its only 50/50 if you one hit people in rubbish/default armour atm, and I suspect a lot of those kills are people with an arrow in their foot etc, try some lancing atm and you'll see, most the people you one hit will already have an old wound or two.

 

[Spanky89]

You currently can't one-hit-kill someone in good armour with a lance.

You need 2 hits, where one has to be a direct hit from full speed, trust me, i've seen it happen several hundred times this week alone

In fact, its only 50/50 if you one hit people in rubbish/default armour atm, and I suspect a lot of those kills are people with an arrow in their foot etc, try some lancing atm and you'll see, most the people you one hit will already have an old wound or two.

eaxclty, lancers cant kill atm - with couching they cant reach ****.... therefor they cant win vs good infantry, just not possile...

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

You currently can't one-hit-kill someone in good armour with a lance.

You need 2 hits, where one has to be a direct hit from full speed, trust me, i've seen it happen several hundred times this week alone

In fact, its only 50/50 if you one hit people in rubbish/default armour atm, and I suspect a lot of those kills are people with an arrow in their foot etc, try some lancing atm and you'll see, most the people you one hit will already have an old wound or two.

eaxclty, lancers cant kill atm - with couching they cant reach ****.... therefor they cant win vs good infantry, just not possile...

Everybody knows how awful I am with cavalry, yet I've been topping scoreboards lately from horseback.  Frankly, I think you only disapprove of the new cavalry because it's not as easy.    Of course they can't kill skilled spearmen who are prepared, they shouldn't be able to!

 

[Lord Rust]

You currently can't one-hit-kill someone in good armour with a lance.

You need 2 hits, where one has to be a direct hit from full speed, trust me, i've seen it happen several hundred times this week alone

In fact, its only 50/50 if you one hit people in rubbish/default armour atm, and I suspect a lot of those kills are people with an arrow in their foot etc, try some lancing atm and you'll see, most the people you one hit will already have an old wound or two.

eaxclty, lancers cant kill atm - with couching they cant reach ****.... therefor they cant win vs good infantry, just not possile...

l2p

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

lancepoking is impossible now

Lance poking, as you call it, should never be anyway.  Couching is how lancers should really fight and I am glad the recent versions haven't made it completely useless.  I am normally infantry, but the other day I tried a lancer and was couching infantry all over.  I found couching useless against other cav, because the "poke".  Poking is the dumbest thing going, try stabbing with a giant stick being held with one hand, you would have no power behind it.  If you were at speed, you would probably break your wrist doing it too.  Couching needs to be the new lancer primary, except for short or light lances when at slow speeds.

I am sorry you are disappointed with the new patch spanky, but it is closer to how it should be.  I can't tell you how many times changes in combat mechanics have messed with my infantry fighting abilities, but I always adapted.  You will do the same.

 

[Spanky89]

actually i just played lancer for the second time since the update, havent been around.. its good now i think lol... a bit harder to kill infantry but everything else is the same.. just new play style =)

i like new update now a bit too weak vs full speed hit on a infantry but yeah....

its ok... i was rank 1 in scorebord now, 35 kills 11 deahts.. i was lancer all the time.. DM

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

its ok... i was rank 1 in scorebord now, 35 kills 11 deahts.. i was lancer all the time.. DM

I wonder if anyone can even get 35 and 11 on a DM server as anything but horseman.  Infantry just does not lend itself to it, though I guess an xbow or bowman can do it if they are stealthy and cowardly enough. 

 

[Urist]

Actually I was kinda sad today, only scored 50ish/11 in a deathmatch round on spanky's server. I died too often. *shakes fist at backstabbing archers/throwers/sodomists*
Oh, I was playing a swadian swordsman.

 

[Kevlar]

All we need now is cavalry to take fall damage and spanky will probably kill himself 

This patch feels very much like that other one that reduced your lancing to just infront of you, except almost worse. Now I try to use a sword up close but most of the swords have such terrible reach that you just swing at the air. Hopefully we get some new melee weapons to make melee halfway decent for a lancer because as is even archers beat me in melee on horseback since they can just jump all around me.