MP Multiplayer Class System

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BNS Marko said:
vicwiz007 said:
@578 The backlash is not as bad as you think. Don't forget about all the positive feedback from players new to the series who tried it at Gamescom. Even if they went back and tried Warband to get a comparison, they'd be playing such an outdated game without the love and nostalgia of us who have been playing for years. Those are the people they're targeting, and seeing that succeed has only made them more confident in classes.
The people that they're 'targeting' had received like 5 000 beta keys and you couldn't find 20 people on the beta later lol
These people will not be playing the game and adding to its longevity like Warband.
I mean imagine playing that captain mode demo and then going into the beta. You see only 20 players total and the only mode available is 6v6 after playing a mode with epic battles. Not to mention of those 20 people most are veteran Warband players who will cream you. I still think it was a bad idea to give these people beta access.

The positive feedback was not only for single player. Why would you assume that?
 
I was personally at gamescom and the line was always filled. I believe 5000 is pretty close to what it is.

If i remember correctly there were two games ongoing, each with 10 players and both playing captain mode. I believe it took around 20-30 mins for each session.
 
vicwiz007 said:
BNS Marko said:
vicwiz007 said:
@578 The backlash is not as bad as you think. Don't forget about all the positive feedback from players new to the series who tried it at Gamescom. Even if they went back and tried Warband to get a comparison, they'd be playing such an outdated game without the love and nostalgia of us who have been playing for years. Those are the people they're targeting, and seeing that succeed has only made them more confident in classes.
The people that they're 'targeting' had received like 5 000 beta keys and you couldn't find 20 people on the beta later lol
These people will not be playing the game and adding to its longevity like Warband.
I mean imagine playing that captain mode demo and then going into the beta. You see only 20 players total and the only mode available is 6v6 after playing a mode with epic battles. Not to mention of those 20 people most are veteran Warband players who will cream you. I still think it was a bad idea to give these people beta access.

The positive feedback was not only for single player. Why would you assume that?

Because current beta gameplay is a big pile of ****, mate. That's why. Not even veterans play it right now because of the lack of a patch in a month and how bad it currently is. If you have access to the beta, I am sure you know. Beta chat is always full of discussion. I dont bash it, since its early beta but that's just the current truth.

 
578 said:
vicwiz007 said:
BNS Marko said:
vicwiz007 said:
@578 The backlash is not as bad as you think. Don't forget about all the positive feedback from players new to the series who tried it at Gamescom. Even if they went back and tried Warband to get a comparison, they'd be playing such an outdated game without the love and nostalgia of us who have been playing for years. Those are the people they're targeting, and seeing that succeed has only made them more confident in classes.
The people that they're 'targeting' had received like 5 000 beta keys and you couldn't find 20 people on the beta later lol
These people will not be playing the game and adding to its longevity like Warband.
I mean imagine playing that captain mode demo and then going into the beta. You see only 20 players total and the only mode available is 6v6 after playing a mode with epic battles. Not to mention of those 20 people most are veteran Warband players who will cream you. I still think it was a bad idea to give these people beta access.

The positive feedback was not only for single player. Why would you assume that?

Because current beta gameplay is a big pile of ****, mate. That's why. Not even veterans play it right now because of the lack of a patch in a month and how bad it currently is. If you have access to the beta, I am sure you know. Beta chat is always full of discussion. I dont bash it, since its early beta but that's just the current truth.

It is actually the current state of the game. I personally just mess around with the game, leak screenshots from maps and make video's about things i find fun to show. But playing the beta right now is so boring. Since i came from gamescom there has been 0 patches and cavalry is still as overpowered. I heard this has been a complain for a while so i don't know why they are not patching things up.
 
Memoefe said:
If class system worked at the moment there wouldn't be any need for beta. I can see why class system fails, and what can be done to make it better. Its been no more than 3 months since beta began. What is the all this fuss about?

The class system is not the only thing that needs fixing. I agree that there's enough time to work on all the things that need improving, but with the information we have right now, the class system doesn't seem to need just a little fix, it needs A LOT of work.

vicwiz007 said:
You guys who replied to me are right- Warband could've benefited greatly with both single player and multiplayer tutorials. It's somethinf TW has made a point of addressing for BL. However, instead of improving the old system; adding matchmaking, tutorials, whatever, they have scrapped it and made a new one which is clear from the start.

Right now it looks so clear because it is simply unfinished, it is barebones. The system as of right now can only kind of work in the modes of skirmish and captain battle, because those two modes include other variables that affect balance, those being the ring system in skirmish and the army size in captain battle. As for the other modes, Davic said this a couple pages back:

Davic said:
They'd still need to find a way to have the system work convincingly with other gamemodes like Siege because right now all I can imagine is castles being assaulted and defended by hordes of Fianns and other high-tier troops.

And I think that he is completely right, there's no reason for a player to play a low tier troop when they can just pick another one that is just straight up better. If they plan to push this system for all game modes, they really NEED to adapt it properly.
 
@578 im not talking about the beta man I am talking about the Captain demo. It is clearly different from the beta which has nobody playing and no captain mode. People seemed to enjoy that captain mode based off comments, thats all im saying. Its clear they dont enjoy beta as much or theyd be playing/discussing it.

@Klaus youre right, I’ve seen that in deathmatch there is no point system for spending on classes. Thats just the mode being unfinished for sure. Skirmish, while unbalanced and whatever else you want to say about it, seems to have the core features of the mode finished and is very clear.
 
DanAngleland said:
If you think about it, that's not realistic. The most that were ever playing multiplayer on any given day would have been a few thousand (and I noticed that the server populations dropped significantly after 3 months or so), and if that had ever been more than were playing single player then Taleworlds would not have had the millions of sales in the M&B franchise that they have had. You went on to talk about mods in your post, but have you never looked at the threads for all the singleplayer mods? They vastly outnumber the multiplayer mods and it is clear from the number and content of posts how popular many of them are/have been.

I can't provide statistics to compare, but I've made people mine iron for thousands of hours. After all back in 2010 when Taleworlds had not the mentioned massive marketing measures they do these days, mp was the new thing to do while singleplayer was already "old" for those having played M&B before, such as me.
Don't get me wrong, I played warband sp too. I also know one person that bought the game on xbox and plays singleplayer up to day.

What I am talking about is game potential, mostly, and I am highly concerned it seems that multiplayer is being neglected in favour of half-baked stuff like Captain Modes. Might just be me, but battling bots will never have the same thrill as fighting real people whose actions and movements I can maybe anticipate, but never calculate. And don't even get me started on the interactive part of mp settings- refering to the iron mining again. It's not like I had had measures to force people to do that, it just was apparently enjoyable. Same goes for warfare, commanding bots just feels dull once you had to deal with heros in a line that was supposed to hold, or deserters.
And while all that can get modded in, the more crap is packed on the vanilla game that's useless, the more work modders will have to put in.

And don't get me wrong, I personally still have perfect hopes this game will work out just nicely, ideally with modding tools so easy to access we'll have interesting mods even quicker then back in 2010-11 with the warband release.
But regardless this it cannot hurt to mention that what did the marketing for Warband's sales was the 97% rating on steam, and play modes like SP or Captain lack the ability to tie people to the game for long term- at least in nowaday's time where there's thousands of potential playmates available at any given time via the internet.

Captain is the classic mode to fancy people for five minutes- gives an army of bots right away as disposal, without any of the preparation time both a singleplayer-campaign as well as a multiplayer-mod-army need to be formed, equipped etc.
It's not worth bothering with unless a game already has wasted it's mp potential and is getting outdated and the mp servers lack appeal. That's why this mode was perfectly fitting in VC. It should not be the focus for the new game, however. If anything it should be kept back for those who still want to lead armies online when there's no one anymore to form this armies. Granted, maybe Bannerlord is already foru years late and Captain Mode will be what it needs, I personally though, as mentioned, still have big hopes.
 
Knüppel said:
Might just be me, but battling bots will never have the same thrill as fighting real people whose actions and movements I can maybe anticipate, but never calculate.

The very reason why I dropped SP as soon as Warband was out. I don't see the point in fighting bots when you can fight actual people.
 
The class system is flawed and should be reworked to impose more freedom of choice for the player i.e. as in Warband.

 
Memoefe said:
Al-Mansūr said:
I think the class system is not just flawed, it's bad to the core. And the Warband sytem enabled us to create our own classes.

What's bad about core of classes? I think there are pros and cons of both system equally.

Could you please elaborate on the pros? We haven't really heared that many so far.
 
TFK_Ted said:
Could you please elaborate on the pros? We haven't really heared that many so far.

Easier to understand at a glance, less vertical progression (good players have a smaller advantage over bad players than Warband), easier to balance.
 
Maroon said:
TFK_Ted said:
Could you please elaborate on the pros? We haven't really heared that many so far.

Easier to understand at a glance, less vertical progression (good players have a smaller advantage over bad players than Warband), easier to balance.

easier to balance, technically not with the old system of Warband only the items of the classes must be managed on their stats or other, as for the new, they will not only have to know which class they will have to add for each faction, and in addition to balance them on their equipment, so they will doubly think for the end to give us this system more restrictive than funny
 
I think suggesting, or brainstorming an alternative might be a useful thing for constructivity's sake, so here goes:

Here are what I think the criteria for a class system should be:

1. Maximise choice. Let players use the exact gear they want, within faction and "financial" limits.
2. Keep it accessible. The system must be well explained, and ideally intuitive. The speed at which you can equip yourself is also important. You should be able to choose what you want as quickly as possible.
3. Customisation! This is the big, high explosive pink elephant in the room with the Bannerlord system. Cosmetic customisation is simply a good, important thing for a game like this. Not only is it extremely popular in games these days, but it also is 100% suitable to the setting.
4. Maintain balance. The old money system was always good. The better, or more specialised the item, the higher the cost. It's also extremely flexible. You can give everyone the same set amount of money, or you can reward players for their performance (the best for casual modes), or even reduce your respawn amounts based on crossing price thresholds.

So.

1. Choice
As in Warband, a small amount of very broad classes really is ideal. High amounts of choice increase replayability, and let you precisely gear your character to your playstyle, or the situation, or even just to goof around and experiment.
There is literally nothing wrong with the Native Warband system in concept, and I really think it should've just been iterated upon. Adding more options is vital, and there should be as few "gaps" in the equipment selection as possible. Take for example the Rhodoks in Native. Their infantry can't select the Green Tunic over Mail. This means you have a huge gap between the Ragged Outfit and the extremely expensive Green Surcoat. These gaps should be filled both to keep progression (in modes that allow for it) more steady, and also to maintain better faction balance.
If Taleworlds wants to make modes that are "balanced" (and probably not fun), then those modes could always have a different selection of gear, or boring rigid classes instead.

2. Accessibility.
Of course, for starters, a simple tutorial would make everyone's life easier. Some simple tooltips and stuff to explain things also go a long way. In addition, things like saving loadouts and tagging items as "high priority" for when you can't afford the whole loadout would massively make life easier.
Naturally, this also means the loadout menu should be accessible out of gameplay, i.e. when you're not on a server, so you can design loadouts before you play. Default example loadouts would also make things much easier for beginners.

3. Customisation!
An actual banner system would do wonders here. Let players choose their colours, their charge, everything. Make the cloth bits that colour. You want faction colours instead? Make that a client-side option. Technicolor tutti-frutti armies were a thing historically, and they make players recognisable from a distance. In addition, different "tiers" of armour could have multiple variants. Say for example you right click the "gambeson" in the gear selector, and a drop down menu of the various faction-specific styles of gambeson pops up.

Finally, this I see as the most important thing everyone's forgetting:
Bannerlord has a bloody weapon editor! Let us use our own weapons in MP! At least in the non-competitive modes. This is to me the biggest no-brainer!
If there's no technical problem with implementing it in MP, it'd be such an incredibly awesome feature. Whether you want to design weapons to be perfect for a certain playstyle, ones that you think look cool, or just something funny/ridiculous, all those reasons are 100% legitimate.
The weapon editor should be accessible out of gameplay too, your choice of weapon bits should depend on the faction, and the price could probably be determined via weapon attributes.

I'm 100% convinced that custom weapons in MP would be a very popular feature.

4. Balance.
Again, the money system is fantastic and flexible. It should be the basis for Bannerlord too, not some class system.
The way cost and money function could depend on the mode. In some modes, you could have the old system where you get rewarded with extra gold for playing well.
In a mode with limited respawns, the more you spend, the fewer spawns you have.
In captain-style modes, the more you spend, the fewer soldiers you have. This means, by the way, that your bots should have your exact loadout. (There's a Native server where your bots use your gear, it's really fun and varied)
If balance is vital, then everyone could just have the same fixed amount.
If TW continues to hate fun, they can always have the more competitive modes use a rigid class system instead.


Would be cool if we could come up with a system that we would by and large agree is 100% better than the current class & perk one.
(And yes, I understand that TW said that they are staying with the current, seemingly awful system, but in my experience when something bites a developer in the butt enough, they suddenly become surprisingly flexible)
 
TFK_Ted said:
Memoefe said:
Al-Mansūr said:
I think the class system is not just flawed, it's bad to the core. And the Warband sytem enabled us to create our own classes.

What's bad about core of classes? I think there are pros and cons of both system equally.

Could you please elaborate on the pros? We haven't really heared that many so far.

In warbands customization system you trade coin with equipments (which is actually just stats). Other than this causing a snowball effect, it is just too straightforward. You just try to get best or your most comfortable loadout, there is no sacrifices(except feom coin, which is core of snowball) made to play around your enemies weakness.

Bannerlord system on the other hand, you have to choose your strengths, and it doesn't have to be just stats. It can be a perk to give you ability to shoot arrow in wider arc while on horse. It can make you deal more damage while using single handed sword while using no sword. It can reduce penalty of two handed weapons on horse. It can do things that warband mp does like giving you better weapon or armor. While not causing any snowball. People just need to observe and adapt their play style and this is what competitive games are about.

 
Memoefe said:
TFK_Ted said:
Memoefe said:
Al-Mansūr said:
I think the class system is not just flawed, it's bad to the core. And the Warband sytem enabled us to create our own classes.

What's bad about core of classes? I think there are pros and cons of both system equally.

Could you please elaborate on the pros? We haven't really heared that many so far.

In warbands customization system you trade coin with equipments (which is actually just stats). Other than this causing a snowball effect, it is just too straightforward. You just try to get best or your most comfortable loadout, there is no sacrifices(except feom coin, which is core of snowball) made to play around your enemies weakness.

Bannerlord system on the other hand, you have to choose your strengths, and it doesn't have to be just stats. It can be a perk to give you ability to shoot arrow in wider arc while on horse. It can make you deal more damage while using single handed sword while using no sword. It can reduce penalty of two handed weapons on horse. It can do things that warband mp does like giving you better weapon or armor. While not causing any snowball. People just need to observe and adapt their play style and this is what competitive games are about.

I don't know where you get the idea from that you don't have any weakness in the warband system, its like as soon as the game starts you are able to buy top tier armor and top tier weapons. Sorry to break it to you but it is not. Warband has 3 classes in multiplayer most of the time, Infantry/Archer/Cavalry but choosing what your weakness and strengths will be is what makes this great about warband.

Bannerlord class system will fail in gamemodes like siege or battle since there is no point in ever going to a low tier unit. The only people who will take levy or peasants during those gamemodes will be people who are taking it because its the closest they will get to "the pleb look" and troll-ish behavior.

Sounds to be that taleworlds wants the average joe not to quit after 10 minutes but not realize that armor and perks will not save you from someone who has played this game for years and to have the new player return to singleplayer after 5 minutes and go on to complain that multiplayer is hard and that people use some weird techniques to confuse them.

At least when you had 2 naked handers new players had a bigger chance of killing them if the guy in question playing naked made just one mistake.


I have seen this multiple times, and its exhausting to see, having the "top tier armor" does not take 5 kills to get in multiplayer unless you only played TG_Arena
 
Remember when people would log into multiplayer, get owned, and try to figure out why, and learn the intricacies of combat in the game? Instead of calling it all stupid and retreating back to the coziness of single player where they can feel like a god killing mindless bots.
 
Younes123 said:
The only people who will take levy or peasants during those gamemodes will be people who are taking it because its the closest they will get to "the pleb look" and troll-ish behavior.

I don't know if its significant in current state of beta but they intend to make low tier units spawn more than high tier units thus its a risk choosing high-tier units. Maybe its not balanced right now and high tier units are stronger because of that but it looks okay in paper. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Memoefe said:
Younes123 said:
The only people who will take levy or peasants during those gamemodes will be people who are taking it because its the closest they will get to "the pleb look" and troll-ish behavior.

I don't know if its significant in current state of beta but they intend to make low tier units spawn more than high tier units thus its a risk choosing high-tier units. Maybe its not balanced right now and high tier units are stronger because of that but it looks okay in paper. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The current state of the beta is not looking great. I hopped on 10 mins ago and the servers were again lagging (not ping wise just server lag) and i had the same issue yesterday when playing with other people.
Like i said no one is taking peasant except when its a troll game on the custom server and we fist fight or just go around jumping and all but except that no one ever takes it.

Taleworlds might be upgrading their server or maybe better merging them and hopefully opening an Australian server but the fact that closed beta players like me have no access to any platform except the public forum to report bugs or issues is pitiful
 
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