So I finally got a chance to actually get a feel for the MP combat myself. I've only fought bots so far, but I can understand what's going wrong and why people are not liking the combat.
I can tell that the MP did not have a lot of effort or thought put into the stats/equipment. It plays like a second thought, and players will thus treat it as a second thought when considering what game they want to play.
I'm going to address specific issues, and how I think they should be fixed.
1: I'm running way too fast
2: Weightless Movement
3: Weapon Bounces & Whiffs(Stats)
4: Ranged Weapons
I can tell that the MP did not have a lot of effort or thought put into the stats/equipment. It plays like a second thought, and players will thus treat it as a second thought when considering what game they want to play.
I'm going to address specific issues, and how I think they should be fixed.
1: I'm running way too fast
What the hell is going on? Am I Usain Bolt? Common comments. Let's look at the stats for the troop you play as in MP.
Well this all looks pretty similar to native. What's the problem, why don't I move like native?
Hmmmm... Let's take a look in the module.ini file for VC.
In native this is = 0.
what does it do? Contrary to popular thought, the athletics skill in Native doesn't actually make you run faster. Your AGI attribute is what gives you your speed. However, when this small setting is active, your athletics skill also increases your maximum movement rate.
So in native: run speed = AGI - equipment weight penalty
But in VC: run speed = AGI + athletics bonus - equipment weight penalty
This is why people are running so fast. To fix this, turn off this module setting. If you want to further decrease maximum movement rate after that, decrease AGI.
14 STR
14 AGI
6 Ironflesh
6 Athletics
3 PowerStrike, 3 PowerThrow, 3 PowerDraw
2 Shield
6 Ath(It has been decreased to 5 in the patch)
14 AGI
6 Ironflesh
6 Athletics
3 PowerStrike, 3 PowerThrow, 3 PowerDraw
2 Shield
6 Ath(It has been decreased to 5 in the patch)
Hmmmm... Let's take a look in the module.ini file for VC.
Code:
can_run_faster_with_skills = 1what does it do? Contrary to popular thought, the athletics skill in Native doesn't actually make you run faster. Your AGI attribute is what gives you your speed. However, when this small setting is active, your athletics skill also increases your maximum movement rate.
So in native: run speed = AGI - equipment weight penalty
But in VC: run speed = AGI + athletics bonus - equipment weight penalty
This is why people are running so fast. To fix this, turn off this module setting. If you want to further decrease maximum movement rate after that, decrease AGI.
2: Weightless Movement
So you're running forward, you're not wearing heavy items. You don't do anything but hold down the W key for a couple seconds, and you're going pretty fast. Then you press S, and you near instantly start going in the opposite direction.
What happened to the forward momentum of a hulking out sprinting viking man? Oh, I'm not wearing anything and I have 5 athletics.
So Warband actually has a fairly elaborate system of controlling infantry movement rate.
A soldier on foot follows the same movement rules as horses, with the exception that they can strafe.
The character has two factors influencing the rate of his movement. These are your maximum speed,(described in 1 above) and maneuverability. The more maneuverable you are, the faster you can change your rate of motion.
It is the rate at which you can change your rate.
To prove this, here are the results of a test I did.
So my character had a max speed of 100 AGI, and the weight which he carries decreases his maximum movement speed(to a point), and decreases his maneuverability. Anyone can replicate these tests.
Now how does athletics play into this? Well athletics primary function is not actually to make you run faster. this is not what it does in Native, except indirectly. Athletics offsets some of the penalty of equipment weight.
So my suggestion to the devs for this problem of weightless feeling, is to increase the weight of equipment. This will make people change their rate of movement more slowly. Footwork will become more predictable.
Best way of doing this is to have a rule for protection and how much it weighs.
The rule I have found very similar to native's, and extremely precise, is to divide the armour's protection by 10, then square.
In other words, for an armour with a protection of 30, you divide by ten, and then square. 30/10=3 3x3=9
For boots and head armour, just divide the protection by 10 to get weight. I'd say add .5 weight per point of hand armour protection. Also, leather gloves really shouldn't add 6 protection. Gloves need to be balanced for what they'll do on the hands of someone who has the best body armour. The bonus it provides is small for someone with light armour, but exponentially higher for someone with heavy armour.
Also, not all helmets should have about 30 protection. There should be helmets with 45, 25, 50, 40, 35, etc.
When items have proper weights associated with them, players will have to make a real choice about what they use. Footwork is important to melee combat, and armour affects that footwork.
Do this and people will not feel weightless.
What happened to the forward momentum of a hulking out sprinting viking man? Oh, I'm not wearing anything and I have 5 athletics.
So Warband actually has a fairly elaborate system of controlling infantry movement rate.
A soldier on foot follows the same movement rules as horses, with the exception that they can strafe.
The character has two factors influencing the rate of his movement. These are your maximum speed,(described in 1 above) and maneuverability. The more maneuverable you are, the faster you can change your rate of motion.
It is the rate at which you can change your rate.
To prove this, here are the results of a test I did.
I modded my character to have 100 AGI, and I took off all his equipment, except for a weapon which I modded to weigh 1000.
So I spawn into some place and I can't move(or so I think). I hold down a movement key for a while and I start moving in that direction. The rate at which I speed up is very slow, and when I stop getting any faster I'm not moving like someone who has 100 agi, more like someone with 5, at best. A slow jog was the most I could limit my max speed to with any weight. Equivalent to 0 AGI.
I drop the weapon, and then I start whipping around like an olympic sprinter.
I stop and pick up the weapon, same result as before.
I drop it and I get moving again. This time I pick up the sword while running at full speed.
Suddenly I can't change the direction I'm going in. I running at full sprint with my fingers off the keyboard.
I gradually slow down without any input, and slow a little faster if I hold down the opposite movement key.
So I spawn into some place and I can't move(or so I think). I hold down a movement key for a while and I start moving in that direction. The rate at which I speed up is very slow, and when I stop getting any faster I'm not moving like someone who has 100 agi, more like someone with 5, at best. A slow jog was the most I could limit my max speed to with any weight. Equivalent to 0 AGI.
I drop the weapon, and then I start whipping around like an olympic sprinter.
I stop and pick up the weapon, same result as before.
I drop it and I get moving again. This time I pick up the sword while running at full speed.
Suddenly I can't change the direction I'm going in. I running at full sprint with my fingers off the keyboard.
I gradually slow down without any input, and slow a little faster if I hold down the opposite movement key.
Now how does athletics play into this? Well athletics primary function is not actually to make you run faster. this is not what it does in Native, except indirectly. Athletics offsets some of the penalty of equipment weight.
The specific numbers are hidden somewhere in code, and I'm not a coder, so I can't tell you what movement rate is decreased by what number.
I'll give some slightly better examples here though, using native rules where athletics does not add to max speed.
If I'm not wearing any equipment, and my AGI is 0, but my athletics is 1-10, I will not move any faster than I would if my ath were 0.
If I'm wearing some equipment, and some athletics, I will move at a faster maximum, and change my velocity(maneuver) faster than I would if I had no athletics at all.
If I'm wearing too much weight, no amount of athletics will make me run faster than the absolute minimum(slow jog), but it will increase my maneuverability slightly.
I'll give some slightly better examples here though, using native rules where athletics does not add to max speed.
If I'm not wearing any equipment, and my AGI is 0, but my athletics is 1-10, I will not move any faster than I would if my ath were 0.
If I'm wearing some equipment, and some athletics, I will move at a faster maximum, and change my velocity(maneuver) faster than I would if I had no athletics at all.
If I'm wearing too much weight, no amount of athletics will make me run faster than the absolute minimum(slow jog), but it will increase my maneuverability slightly.
So my suggestion to the devs for this problem of weightless feeling, is to increase the weight of equipment. This will make people change their rate of movement more slowly. Footwork will become more predictable.
Best way of doing this is to have a rule for protection and how much it weighs.
The rule I have found very similar to native's, and extremely precise, is to divide the armour's protection by 10, then square.
In other words, for an armour with a protection of 30, you divide by ten, and then square. 30/10=3 3x3=9
10 1.0 009 11 1.2 010 12 1.4 020
13 1.7 030 14 1.9 040 15 2.2 050
16 2.6 060 17 2.9 070 18 3.2 080
19 3.6 090 20 4.0 100 21 4.4 140
22 4.8 180 23 5.3 220 24 5.8 260
25 6.0 300 26 6.7 340 27 7.3 380
28 7.8 420 29 8.4 460 30 9.0 500
31 9.6 540 32 10.2 580 33 10.9 620
34 11.6 660 35 12.2 700 36 12.9 760
37 13.7 820 38 14.4 880 39 15.2 940
40 16.0 1000 41 16.8 1100 42 17.6 1200
43 18.5 1300 44 19.4 1400 45 20.2 1500
46 21.0 1600 47 22.0 1700 48 23.0 1800
49 24.0 1900 50 25.0 2000 51 26.0 2200
52 27.0 2400 53 28.0 2600 54 29 2800
55 30.0 3000 56 31.2 3400 57 32.4 3800
58 33.6 4200 59 34.8 4600 60 36.0 5000
These are just suggestions according to the rule above. The costs are what I feel is suitable for competitive MP games.
13 1.7 030 14 1.9 040 15 2.2 050
16 2.6 060 17 2.9 070 18 3.2 080
19 3.6 090 20 4.0 100 21 4.4 140
22 4.8 180 23 5.3 220 24 5.8 260
25 6.0 300 26 6.7 340 27 7.3 380
28 7.8 420 29 8.4 460 30 9.0 500
31 9.6 540 32 10.2 580 33 10.9 620
34 11.6 660 35 12.2 700 36 12.9 760
37 13.7 820 38 14.4 880 39 15.2 940
40 16.0 1000 41 16.8 1100 42 17.6 1200
43 18.5 1300 44 19.4 1400 45 20.2 1500
46 21.0 1600 47 22.0 1700 48 23.0 1800
49 24.0 1900 50 25.0 2000 51 26.0 2200
52 27.0 2400 53 28.0 2600 54 29 2800
55 30.0 3000 56 31.2 3400 57 32.4 3800
58 33.6 4200 59 34.8 4600 60 36.0 5000
These are just suggestions according to the rule above. The costs are what I feel is suitable for competitive MP games.
Also, not all helmets should have about 30 protection. There should be helmets with 45, 25, 50, 40, 35, etc.
When items have proper weights associated with them, players will have to make a real choice about what they use. Footwork is important to melee combat, and armour affects that footwork.
Do this and people will not feel weightless.
3: Weapon Bounces & Whiffs(Stats)
You have poorly balanced the stats of your MP weapons and armour against one another.
25c damage is just piss poor for any sword's swing(I expect this level of performance from a knife). Increase the damage by a few points at least. Bounces, bounces everywhere on a 600-800 gold sword.
I've found having a rule system to work off of helps with this as well.
I create little equations so that I can calculate what is balanced. I ask myself what amount of reach is equal to what amount of speed, what amount of damage, and what amount of gold. Then I create a base model to say what the standard is.
So if my base reach is 100 and my base speed is 100, and 1 damage=1 speed=5 reach, and I have a weapon with a model I measure at 90 reach, I will set its reach to 90, and I will add either 2 damage or 2 speed or 1 of each, so that the weapon is balanced.
It doesn't have to be exactly this, or follow the rules every time, but keeping close to a certain guideline can help you measure OPness of weapons. Players want variation in these tiny little stats, and advantages and disadvantages for every weapon(whether that be reach damage speed cost or some special feature). Vikingr and Native did this well.
WFaS failed to do this, and it was just an unbalanced wreck as far as MP is concerned.
oh and another thing
damage_interrupt_attack_threshold_mp = 3.0
Change this to 1 if you want people to feel like the game isn't broken every time they hit an armoured guy and nothing happens. They don't care if it's damaging him as much as they care that their hits don't just get ignored and he can spam with impunity.
Players from native will all agree that making hits as ignorable in MP as they are in SP is a bad idea. Yes I am serious, this small number is a big deal.
25c damage is just piss poor for any sword's swing(I expect this level of performance from a knife). Increase the damage by a few points at least. Bounces, bounces everywhere on a 600-800 gold sword.
I've found having a rule system to work off of helps with this as well.
I create little equations so that I can calculate what is balanced. I ask myself what amount of reach is equal to what amount of speed, what amount of damage, and what amount of gold. Then I create a base model to say what the standard is.
So if my base reach is 100 and my base speed is 100, and 1 damage=1 speed=5 reach, and I have a weapon with a model I measure at 90 reach, I will set its reach to 90, and I will add either 2 damage or 2 speed or 1 of each, so that the weapon is balanced.
1h weapons | Base 26c 100s 100r 100g
1d=1s=5r=100g Blunt/Pierce=-10d NoStab=+1c
2h| Base 32c, 100s 100r 100g
1d=1s=5r=100g
Polearms| Base 29p/100s/100r/100g
1d=1s=10r=50g Blunt -5d, Cut+5d,
1d=1s=5r=100g Blunt/Pierce=-10d NoStab=+1c
2h| Base 32c, 100s 100r 100g
1d=1s=5r=100g
Polearms| Base 29p/100s/100r/100g
1d=1s=10r=50g Blunt -5d, Cut+5d,
WFaS failed to do this, and it was just an unbalanced wreck as far as MP is concerned.
oh and another thing
damage_interrupt_attack_threshold_mp = 3.0
Change this to 1 if you want people to feel like the game isn't broken every time they hit an armoured guy and nothing happens. They don't care if it's damaging him as much as they care that their hits don't just get ignored and he can spam with impunity.
Players from native will all agree that making hits as ignorable in MP as they are in SP is a bad idea. Yes I am serious, this small number is a big deal.
4: Ranged Weapons
When you make movement more predictable as I suggest above, it will be easier to hit things with bows.
I think I need to stress though that there's no point hitting someone with a bow in the first place if it takes five or more arrows to kill him in basic armour.
If you want to make the bow a unique weapon with real advantages and disadvantages, you're going to have to make it dangerous in some way, then give players a way to counter that.
Firstly, increase damage by a few points. A relatively weak bow in native is one with 18p damage, and drawn by a 5 powerdraw archer. What you have is a bow too weak to hunt my little viking ponies with.
14p with 3 powerdraw and about 100 proficiency? Lol.
If you want a bow that people fear and respect but is available to all classes, increase its damage to at least 20 or more(preferably with more powerful bow options in future updates), increase the powerdraw stat for MP troops by one or two points across the board.
Then decrease the rate of fire, and make the arrow fly slower(shot speed, lower it down to as little as 45 or 50).
A slower shot speed will require more skill from the archer, to have to account more for shot drop and target movement.
It will limit his range, and encourage him to keep within a reasonable distance of his targets(less sniping).
I also think you guy should try doing away with target reticules in MP.
Also, the "longbow" is a twig in appearance as well as damage. Make the model a bit thicker pls.
Also, increase the damage of all javelins by 5 points, they're really weak.
I think I need to stress though that there's no point hitting someone with a bow in the first place if it takes five or more arrows to kill him in basic armour.
If you want to make the bow a unique weapon with real advantages and disadvantages, you're going to have to make it dangerous in some way, then give players a way to counter that.
Firstly, increase damage by a few points. A relatively weak bow in native is one with 18p damage, and drawn by a 5 powerdraw archer. What you have is a bow too weak to hunt my little viking ponies with.
14p with 3 powerdraw and about 100 proficiency? Lol.
If you want a bow that people fear and respect but is available to all classes, increase its damage to at least 20 or more(preferably with more powerful bow options in future updates), increase the powerdraw stat for MP troops by one or two points across the board.
Then decrease the rate of fire, and make the arrow fly slower(shot speed, lower it down to as little as 45 or 50).
A slower shot speed will require more skill from the archer, to have to account more for shot drop and target movement.
It will limit his range, and encourage him to keep within a reasonable distance of his targets(less sniping).
I also think you guy should try doing away with target reticules in MP.
Also, the "longbow" is a twig in appearance as well as damage. Make the model a bit thicker pls.
Also, increase the damage of all javelins by 5 points, they're really weak.
