Medieval tornaments.

Users who are viewing this thread

Balinux

Sergeant Knight
Basicaly, where and when did they start and what were the differences between nations and centuries?
I know that tournaments achieved their prime around the 15th century and I suspect that the all jousting thingy wasn't as popular in the begining. But I want more details.
 
That's a good question, and I'm afraid I don't have a good answer. :smile: But I do know that they were established at least as far back as the writings of Geoffroi de Charny, since he mentions them in his Book of Chivalry, which he wrote around the 1340's. In fact he makes a distinction between the tournament and the joust, in that the jousting is the lowest rung in the ladder as far as what deserves honorable praise for deeds of arms, with tournaments coming in just above that.

This is something I've been meaning to read up on.

EDIT: Jousting is also mentioned/depicted Codex Manesse, dating from the early 1300's as well.
 
On wikipedia it says this on the Jousting page:

Jousting was just one of a number of popular martial games in the Middle Ages referred to generically as hastiludes. Though the first recorded tournament was staged in 1066
 
One thing that mainly bugs me is the death ration in these events. I mean, there are references to blunt weapons in later ages, but how were things in the 12th century for example? Taking prisioners is all fine, but you can't do it properly as long as you have other opponents in the field. So, did they die a lot or what?
 
The original form of the tournament, before jousting, was the mêlée, which was pretty much a mock war, and went on for hours, and much like a Mount&Blade battle in the way that the fighting could disperse over quite a large area with participants using terrain to their advantage, pursuing each other, ambushing in forested areas, and even resting to treat injuries before returning to the fight.

Tankai said:
One thing that mainly bugs me is the death ration in these events. I mean, there are references to blunt weapons in later ages, but how were things in the 12th century for example? Taking prisioners is all fine, but you can't do it properly as long as you have other opponents in the field. So, did they die a lot or what?

In a mêlée normal weapons were used, and death was not an unusual occurence despite the aim to capture the opponent, though I would not say it happened a lot. I'm guessing it was more likely to happen at the beginning of the mêlée where teams would couch lances and charge at each other, colliding en masse in the middle. The fact that certain tournaments were remembered by the notable knight or knights who died during it suggests actual fatalities were low, but injuries would be common.

With the prisoners, knights would know who the best prize was on the field from the team colours and equipment of the participants, and would often gang up on them. Inexperienced knights were also found out and taken out of the fight quickly. In a free-for-all having other opponents preventing you from taking prisoners isn't much of a consideration, but with teams tactics would have been devised in order to take prisoners most effectively. William Marshal, for instance, had the nifty trick of riding alongside his enemy and taking hold of their reins and leading the knight away from the battle where he could be more easily captured. Also, there weren't many rules either, and there are records of teams not charging into the battle until several hours had already passed and the other teams were exhausted. :lol:

I think the introduction of blunted weapons and the general sanitisation of the tournament came in the early 14th century.
 
What Oubliette said. Btw Oubliette, have you read: William Marshal, Flower of Chivalry? It sounds like it.  :wink:

Tournaments were at a high point around 1150-1230, in France anyway. They were more just mock battles where two teams would just go at it with anything, rather than the organized knock-other-guy-off-horse-with-stick as (I presume) it became latter. They took place on wide tracts of land that sometimes included villages and small towns, where the losing team (or part thereof) would make their last stand once the initial fight had gone one way or the other. The goal of these was basically; bash the other guy on the head and drag him off bounds, where your squires would hold him and/or armor and horse for ransom. Of course, they sometimes got new horses and went back to the fight, in which case they would sometimes be taken prisoner two of three times in one tournament. Which means they could get pretty deep into debt in a very short time.


 
Tankai said:
Thanks for the replies! So I assume that the earlier types of tournaments are not at all for m&b.
Actually, I'd say they are more for it. M&B is pretty well set for small scale bash-ups, as oppose to jousts. Although Janus's arena mod did pretty good.
 
Llew2 said:
What Oubliette said. Btw Oubliette, have you read: William Marshal, Flower of Chivalry? It sounds like it.  :wink:

No. Actually, the only knowledge I have of these tournaments is taken from a recent BBC documentary on William Marshall. :grin:
 
Oubliette said:
No. Actually, the only knowledge I have of these tournaments is taken from a recent BBC documentary on William Marshall. :grin:
They did a good job, then, if what you know is to go by.  :smile:
 
Llew2 said:
Tankai said:
Thanks for the replies! So I assume that the earlier types of tournaments are not at all for m&b.
Actually, I'd say they are more for it. M&B is pretty well set for small scale bash-ups, as oppose to jousts. Although Janus's arena mod did pretty good.

But staging fake fights with few kills here and there doesn't seem like something m&b is capable of producing.
 
Tankai said:
Llew2 said:
Tankai said:
Thanks for the replies! So I assume that the earlier types of tournaments are not at all for m&b.
Actually, I'd say they are more for it. M&B is pretty well set for small scale bash-ups, as oppose to jousts. Although Janus's arena mod did pretty good.

But staging fake fights with few kills here and there doesn't seem like something m&b is capable of producing.

It would be if you assume that people are using blunted "tournament swords" and "tournament lances", which is the situation you have in the arena at the moment. The difference is than in Medieval Tournaments people used their own armour and weapons and if you capture someone you got to keep his horse, armour and weapons. Is was a good way for a poor but talented knight (like William Marshal) to make a lot of money.

On the subject of that programme on BBC 2, although you can't watch it, there is an article about it here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7192262.stm
 
No idea, but I think it is likely. On the subject of the melee tournament, this is not the same thing, but it is probably similar in some respects:



 
Back
Top Bottom