Make Cav Stronger Again

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Hey!
So with this patch the nerf to WW and SS has been introduced (no other nerfs had happened). This should’ve been in the game way before, actually already with the combat update a while ago, sorry for that.

Cav (especially heavy cav) is the most impactful class in the game. (Shock troops are kinda runners up atm, take the atm very seriously). They dominate basically all statistics and that doesn't even touch on their ability to take flags quickly, knockdown players or intervene in other ways into melee fights.

The goal isn't to nerf cav to the ground though, it makes sense gameplay wise for them to have such an impact, it's just what this class provides. Also it's actually struggling in captain mode but for other reasons. Instead our approach is to make them harder to play but keep the same possible impact, it should just require more skill to reach it. That's why being able to punish them for mistakes is so important imo.

I am going over the perks now and there will definitely be some changes to cav perks as well, especially the ones with low pick rate or too high/low impact.
Sensible.
 
Hey!
So with this patch the nerf to WW and SS has been introduced (no other nerfs had happened). This should’ve been in the game way before, actually already with the combat update a while ago, sorry for that.

Cav (especially heavy cav) is the most impactful class in the game. (Shock troops are kinda runners up atm, take the atm very seriously). They dominate basically all statistics and that doesn't even touch on their ability to take flags quickly, knockdown players or intervene in other ways into melee fights.

The goal isn't to nerf cav to the ground though, it makes sense gameplay wise for them to have such an impact, it's just what this class provides. Also it's actually struggling in captain mode but for other reasons. Instead our approach is to make them harder to play but keep the same possible impact, it should just require more skill to reach it. That's why being able to punish them for mistakes is so important imo.

I am going over the perks now and there will definitely be some changes to cav perks as well, especially the ones with low pick rate or too high/low impact.
What I would be interested to know more about is how do you plan on making cavalry harder to play, but with the same potential impact? Things that come to my mind is bump/hitting. I played cavalry main during a few years in Warband competitive and I must say that I found the bump/slashing bump/lancing quite satisfying/rewarding. It is simply that you know it is hard to pull off, but if you do you can break the opponent's block and hit him.

During the last match I played in Bannerlord I recall getting bump/lanced a few times and I must say that it did not look like the cavalry was really aiming to do that, but perhaps I am wrong. In any case, how challenging is it to pull this off in BL compared to Warband? Also, how would you describe the time-window to make that work? These are things that would be good to consider. Perhaps cavalry main players (as I am an Inf main atm) can add more to this.
 
As a cav player I want to add something about this topic. Most of time I didn't like bannelord cav mechanics, especially part with bump stabs and riding on motorbike. I would not say cavs are OP, just the other classes are too weak. Cavs should be always the most powerfull unit becouse of their price. I will always be a supporter of the Warband cavs mechanics that could easily fit a cav Bannelord. It's just my point of view as a someone who has huge experience from Warband and Bannerlord.

Those are several my examples for the ways of nerfing cavs or buffing them:

- Make every horse a horse, not a small motorbike. I understand the reason of map sizes, but still reduction from 10-30 speeds would be enough for each of cavs. The heavy ones should be much slower than the light ones. The heavies should never have a chance to run at the same speed at the lights with their full speed.

- When we have slower horses, then bump stabs should be more efective and easier to make. We lose speed, which means speed dmg, then there should be more ways to kill someone than just a stab. When you want to bumpstab, you need to bump by the head of the horse, I think it should be about head and front body of the horse.

- Charge dmg is too high, especially for heavies. There are a lot of situations that when you take for example empire heavy cav with a perk charger, your bump with a full speed can hit every the cheapest unit for even 20 dmg . Its totally too much. They should make max 10 dmg with full speed. Horses shouldn't make that huge impact with dmg.

- As we know how spears work in the Warband, they were always a nightmare for cavs. The problem is that, even if in Bannerlord developers added dmg for spears, it won't change much when the spearman can't protect himself from other infs. The conclusion is that you should improve spears to not *poke *for other players and cavs. Then spearman can survive tf and stop the cavs. Then we could have 3 types of units. Shock, shielders and pikers.

- Cavs should not be like the ball bounces off the wall. As a cav if you went into the wall, not only with full speed even half speed, you should be stopped. Futhermore there are rare places on each of maps that your horse is stopped with half speed like I wrote before. From my perspective there were bugs but I don't know.

- Everyone should hear cavs from longer distances to prepare yourselfs from couches or simply hits.

In conclusion, that nerf what arrived now about heavies, makes them not worth. Lower speed up for that unit makes them being like a snail. You can't run away from shocks, you are so slow, you can't make bumpstabs and make 20-30 dmg? for hit becouse of speed. Futhermore cav duels are horiblly borring with heavies. The fights of *pokes* for very patient grandpas. However I think it's a kinda positive step for nerfing cavs about their speed up but not that much how it is now. Those things what I wrote before are important to make them playable, now heavies are not. Moreover they are boring and not enjoable. The better way of nerf should be not making their speed up so slow but increase their full speed. I even think that playing 2 times light and one shock is more worthier especially on closed map.
 
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During the last match I played in Bannerlord I recall getting bump/lanced a few times and I must say that it did not look like the cavalry was really aiming to do that, but perhaps I am wrong.
You are not, for some reason it's much harder to pull off in BL, most of the time you just push the enemy model away instead of bumping it.
 
That's why being able to punish them for mistakes is so important imo.
Please and thank you. Really frustrating to watch a "Cav Pro" run into a formation of 24 peasant pikes, clearly take 40-50 stabs(which have no effect because we are *too close* to the giant iron spike), and just slowly trot away.
No other class can make a mistake anywhere close to that magnitude and not instantly die.
 
Good nerfs. Something that has always annoyed me is that cavalry just push around teammates and enemies sometimes. In warband if you ran into a teammate your horse insta stopped. in cRPG if you ran into a teammate you literally bumped him to the ground.
I don't want to move my teammates out of the way when I'm coming through, it doesn't make sense. It ruins infantry play
 
I would like to add my part to this topic. Honestly playing heavy cav in ANY faction no matter if its Khuzait or Vlandia IS NOT FUN. Cavs mechanics are already limited as we all know in most situations its not even worth to make a bump stab or a simple bump, you either go on full speed hoping to 1hit an enemy or press X to couch. Reducing WW/SS mechanism isn't the way to balance them, it's a skillful mechanic that should stay in the place it was in the past.

Moving forward to my ideas how to balance that SUPER OP CLASS.
- First of all finally fixing sound so people can hear cavs coming, riding around properly. Now you hear the sound of a horse far away but when its coming on your back volume doesn't change until cav is 1 meter far from you hitting you in the back basically. (I've got few clips if anyone would be interested).
- Cav shouldn't bounce of the wall as it does rn. Camel is the biggest meme, it bounces 90% of the time. Simple as that you hit the wall with average speed and faster you stop. Its another mechanic that will require some kind of understanding horse movement and disallow people from closing their eyes while being on horse back.
- Make couches limited by the time, not almost instant and with a cool down. Now its usual to press X whenever you want and ride with this around the map. Also problem of instant couches, well the lance is not even straight its falling down after pressing X but couch already counts, its ridiculous if your not prepared for that there is no chance for you to survive.
- Pressing SS should cancel a couch.
- Minimum speed where you are able to keep couching is too low, jogging inf is faster than a horseman able to couch, make it higher.
- Finally reduce their maximum speed, but don't change the starting speed.

#nin3istheway
 
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Hey!
So with this patch the nerf to WW and SS has been introduced (no other nerfs had happened). This should’ve been in the game way before, actually already with the combat update a while ago, sorry for that.

Cav (especially heavy cav) is the most impactful class in the game. (Shock troops are kinda runners up atm, take the atm very seriously). They dominate basically all statistics and that doesn't even touch on their ability to take flags quickly, knockdown players or intervene in other ways into melee fights.

The goal isn't to nerf cav to the ground though, it makes sense gameplay wise for them to have such an impact, it's just what this class provides. Also it's actually struggling in captain mode but for other reasons. Instead our approach is to make them harder to play but keep the same possible impact, it should just require more skill to reach it. That's why being able to punish them for mistakes is so important imo.

I am going over the perks now and there will definitely be some changes to cav perks as well, especially the ones with low pick rate or too high/low impact.
I agree that it makes total sense for Cavalry to have such an impact on the field. Bonuses like Speed, Approach, Crowd control makes it very worth wile to play. It also makes totally sense that people can become fustrated when facing a more well rounded Cav player. they can quickly DOMINATE the field by knocking over other players/burst damage. The hole concept of making them harder to play I guess is kinda up for debate. When you say harder to play I dont think you mean just not purchasable . The current Prices of Cav units is quick high making it very hard to play. Maybe Actually making cav ingame harder to play would be a better approach? Because right now you be lucky to play at all if you happen to get enough gold. It was more realistic when Cav would kcock everyone down. If a horse is running full speed and can run into you without kocking you down then you better be on my football team. So now its become Realistic vs Balance

I'm not a fan of the perk system and i feel just leaving perks out of it may be the better approach. How can competitive players like this idea at all?
Your ingame success should not be based on what perks you choose but instead what item you use and how good you are with it.

When a player ingame who is playing infantry happens to get on a horse he just happend to find, he is already limited becasue he doesnt have the correct perks. Your ingame success should not be based off of perks but your actually skill in game
 
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Whoever wants to buff cav into nightmare OP level like the patches before should take some pills. You're not thinking clear lol.
 
Please and thank you. Really frustrating to watch a "Cav Pro" run into a formation of 24 peasant pikes, clearly take 40-50 stabs(which have no effect because we are *too close* to the giant iron spike), and just slowly trot away.
No other class can make a mistake anywhere close to that magnitude and not instantly die.
this.

Regarding the class being hard to play: I agree. So is playing archery well. So is playing infantry. I don't see a reason why cavalry should be an exception.

I'm not a fan of the perk system and i feel just leaving perks out of it may be the better approach. How can competitive players like this idea at all?
Your ingame success should not be based on what perks you choose but instead what item you use and how good you are with it.

When a player ingame who is playing infantry happens to get on a horse he just happend to find, he is already limited becasue he doesnt have the correct perks. Your ingame success should not be based off of perks but your actually skill in game
This was the case some patches ago. Guess what happened? The moment a rider got killed, some infantry mounted up, became full fledged cav and boom, even more cav. So only option was to kill the horses to get rid of it for good, which proved quite hard to actually do.

The way it is right now is the only right way there is: You want to play cav? You'll be not as good as infantry in melee combat. You want to play Inf? You won't be able to hold a bow or ride a horse as good. Archer? Yes, here, you have your range damage device, how about you run a bit slower so you can't evade melee forever, making your shots count?
 
As a cav player I want to add something about this topic. Most of time I didn't like bannelord cav mechanics, especially part with bump stabs and riding on motorbike. I would not say cavs are OP, just the other classes are too weak. Cavs should be always the most powerfull unit becouse of their price. I will always be a supporter of the Warband cavs mechanics that could easily fit a cav Bannelord. It's just my point of view as a someone who has huge experience from Warband and Bannerlord.

Those are several my examples for the ways of nerfing cavs or buffing them:

- Make every horse a horse, not a small motorbike. I understand the reason of map sizes, but still reduction from 10-30 speeds would be enough for each of cavs. The heavy ones should be much slower than the light ones. The heavies should never have a chance to run at the same speed at the lights with their full speed.

- When we have slower horses, then bump stabs should be more efective and easier to make. We lose speed, which means speed dmg, then there should be more ways to kill someone than just a stab. When you want to bumpstab, you need to bump by the head of the horse, I think it should be about head and front body of the horse.

- Charge dmg is too high, especially for heavies. There are a lot of situations that when you take for example empire heavy cav with a perk charger, your bump with a full speed can hit every the cheapest unit for even 20 dmg . Its totally too much. They should make max 10 dmg with full speed. Horses shouldn't make that huge impact with dmg.

- As we know how spears work in the Warband, they were always a nightmare for cavs. The problem is that, even if in Bannerlord developers added dmg for spears, it won't change much when the spearman can't protect himself from other infs. The conclusion is that you should improve spears to not *poke *for other players and cavs. Then spearman can survive tf and stop the cavs. Then we could have 3 types of units. Shock, shielders and pikers.

- Cavs should not be like the ball bounces off the wall. As a cav if you went into the wall, not only with full speed even half speed, you should be stopped. Futhermore there are rare places on each of maps that your horse is stopped with half speed like I wrote before. From my perspective there were bugs but I don't know.

- Everyone should hear cavs from longer distances to prepare yourselfs from couches or simply hits.

In conclusion, that nerf what arrived now about heavies, makes them not worth. Lower speed up for that unit makes them being like a snail. You can't run away from shocks, you are so slow, you can't make bumpstabs and make 20-30 dmg? for hit becouse of speed. Futhermore cav duels are horiblly borring with heavies. The fights of *pokes* for very patient grandpas. However I think it's a kinda positive step for nerfing cavs about their speed up but not that much how it is now. Those things what I wrote before are important to make them playable, now heavies are not. Moreover they are boring and not enjoable. The better way of nerf should be not making their speed up so slow but increase their full speed. I even think that playing 2 times light and one shock is more worthier especially on closed map.
nailing it
 
- As we know how spears work in the Warband, they were always a nightmare for cavs. The problem is that, even if in Bannerlord developers added dmg for spears, it won't change much when the spearman can't protect himself from other infs. The conclusion is that you should improve spears to not *poke *for other players and cavs. Then spearman can survive tf and stop the cavs. Then we could have 3 types of units. Shock, shielders and pikers.
Please and thank you. Really frustrating to watch a "Cav Pro" run into a formation of 24 peasant pikes, clearly take 40-50 stabs(which have no effect because we are *too close* to the giant iron spike), and just slowly trot away.
No other class can make a mistake anywhere close to that magnitude and not instantly die.
Make Infantry Spears great again!

And something about cav...
As someone who almost never plays it I think they are currently much less annoying than they used to be.
 
Buddy, have you tried the cavalry breaker perk? Can't really get more OP than that, except maybe if horses start diying of heart attack at a mere sight of a sharpened stick.
That's the perk being OP and only against cav. Spear in general still bounces far too often unless there's speed bonus attached. It's a bit off topic because it's more about spears and less about cav but the two quotes I used just offered themselves.
 
Please make (at least lower tier) cavalry more available. As it stands now, cavalry players are forced to play other roles, and we have to be good at those for a chance of playing with our preferred class once we accumulate enough coin.

Contrast this to naked 2 handers, another high impact class, which has a much lower barrier to entry (ie. lower initial cost, easier to find a 2h laying on the ground than finding a good lance + chasing down a horse).
 
Please make (at least lower tier) cavalry more available. As it stands now, cavalry players are forced to play other roles, and we have to be good at those for a chance of playing with our preferred class once we accumulate enough coin.

Contrast this to naked 2 handers, another high impact class, which has a much lower barrier to entry (ie. lower initial cost, easier to find a 2h laying on the ground than finding a good lance + chasing down a horse).
Are you talking about TDM?
 
I think would be smart to buff cav by just giving it actual perk options.
Like @NIN3 said, they need to be reworked.
For example, on decent level of gameplay you would always take a shield on the light cav, while its so stupid to build perks around the fact that "you can get stonger (by taking lance or longer spear) but you need shield drop from the archer". And this is not consistent - why does battanian cav get a shield and the other dont?
Aserai horse is garbage choice, much lower hp, slow, unlike camel cant just bounce from the walls.
Khuzait light cav - why would you need a bow perk? Why not just take a horse archer?
Another mention - differences in horse choices quality reletive to picking armor for the rider. While it could be OK choice to take armor for empire and vlandia light cav its absolutly NOT worth taking it for sturgia, khuzait and battania because you horse turns into garbage compared to perk option.
 
Before skill perks nomad was actually pretty comperable to horse archer in terms of the skirmisher role. Now you kinda want/need accuracy increase perk.

If you were dismounted you had light archer bow, longsword and good movement speed for 20 gold more.
 
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