Major changes idea.

Do you agree?

  • **** yes

    Votes: 15 40.5%
  • Kindof... some things I don't agree

    Votes: 12 32.4%
  • I have no opinion I should kill myself.

    Votes: 3 8.1%
  • No because I am a long axe spammer and I like getting noskill kills!

    Votes: 3 8.1%
  • **** no I like my horse charging into spears and I still get to couch them!

    Votes: 4 10.8%

  • Total voters
    37

Currently viewing this thread:

Jess_the_Hobozerk

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
This is related to Styo's post about previous versions of warband being better than newer ones.  This is a rather long post so either read it all or don't read it at all, don't read half of it because you read something you don't like and want to flame me.  What I propose changes almost every aspect of the physics that have been messed with too much durring the warband versions.  It will Make Cavalry stronger, long infantry weapons slower/removed i.e. Long great axe, long knobbed mace, and even the basic long axe.  Infantry stronger v.s. cavalry when wielding a pike or any anti cavalry style weapon.

[list type=decimal]
[*]Kicking: Kicking right now is almost perfect however getting stuck in a corner and getting kicked to death is rediculous...  so is waiting for infantry to get near you then you kick them and shoot them with a bow/crossbow,  kick needs to be removed from archers that have thier bows/crossbows drawn, it needs a 3 second cool down, unable to kick people on high ground if you are lower than them, also you should not be able to back pedal kick then attack and back pedal more.
[*]Long Weapons: I have 2 proposed options on this... 1.  Just completally remove these weapons from the december patch with the exception of the khergits and the rhodok spiked club as they are somewhat balanced. 
2.If you swing these weapons they are going to take a ton of strength out of you... so in order to balance them, make them unspamable; If you swing there should be a slight stun (if and only if he parrys you or chambers you from change # 3 below before you can attack a second time, not too great just enough time for the enemy to retaliate in which case the user must block or kick.  This should be the same with all heavy weapons i.e. Warhammer, Long axes, WarCleaver.
[*]Stun/Chambering/Parry:  Stunning is a great addition except where it is at the moment is rediculously overpowered and lame.  If a war hammer hits the side of a short sword on say the left side then of course the blocker will be stunned greatly.  But should that give the guy with a war hammer the upperhand?  Definately not!  How would you fix this?  Fix Chambering, and Parry!!!  "But Chambering isn't broken?"  Yes it is... only players with 0-50 ping can pull it off in a real fight considering the fact if they are skilled or not.  Make chambering easier for high pingers 50-100, make it require less timing and more precision on where you are blocking.  As for parry, it needs to be added back in.
[*]Infantry v.s. Cavalry: Right now Infantry has an upper hand on cavalry, but you will see why I say bump up pikes and other anti cavalry weapons verses cavalry from the cavalry section below.
[*]Archery:  Archery should deal a ton more damage for the heavy bows (it should not take 3 arrows to kill someone naked), less invisible shield walls below the legs and head and around trees/buildings.
[*]Cavalry:  ... :neutral:... PUMP IT UP!  Cavalry right now is so weak, even at full speed on a courser and couch someone in leather armor he won't die.  I say make cavalry powerful again... unable to kill someone at full speed couching is just plain stupid... however there is something that I propose weakens cavalry... Horses should absolutely not be able to jump over 99999 spears also... they should not be able to charge into a spear and still keep running allowing cavalry to couch a man on foot with a pike or spear without getting inturrupted... I don't give a **** if they have armor or not, if it is a charger make it a 60 % chance it will not stall... war horse 70%  hunter 90% other 100%.  Also if shot by arrows or crossbows have horses go a bit uncontrolable for about 1 1/2 seconds.  But at a lower percentage... in order to keep this balanced horses need to be just as powerful in thier attacks as they were in patch .500
[/list]
 
I agree with you on cavalry, the cavalry now is super weak, but just to tell you, if you ran into a spear, your horse will stall.

Kicking: Yes, it needs a cooldown time. Remove them from archers? Archers are weak in melee already, anyways, crossbowmen and archers can always sidekick so their weapon is not in the weapon.

Long Weapons: 2 is a good solution, it has been presentated 80 billion times and I agree with them all the time. Although Nords are Nords, they should get Long axes.

Stun, Chambering, Parry: about that chambering thing, when the game comes out, there will be plenty of servers with 50 ping or less, dont worry.

Infantry vs. Cavalry: Dont bumb up spears/pikes, a good thrust can stop a horse charge, done it my self a bunch of times.

Archery: Less invisible shield walls yes. Archers more damage? This will render higher tier armors less useful, and so people will be encouraged stick to light armor even if they have the money to buy better armor. Instead of bows dealing more damage, it should be the arrows, special arrows for special purposes.

Cavalry: Oh boy... CAVALRY NEEDS TO BE MORE POWERFUL! Sorry for the screaming, anyways the multiplayer compromises are costing the Singleplayers, in the singleplayer campaign, chargers cant even charge through 2 lines of men before heeling? WTF?
 

Faranox

Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SVC
Verily!

He didn't say remove them from archers. He said not to let them kick while drawing/aiming.
I'd love to see parry back in, it wasn't a poor idea or anything.
 

Jess_the_Hobozerk

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
MountandBladeKinsman said:
I agree with you on cavalry, the cavalry now is super weak, but just to tell you, if you ran into a spear, your horse will stall.

Kicking: Yes, it needs a cooldown time. Remove them from archers? Archers are weak in melee already, anyways, crossbowmen and archers can always sidekick so their weapon is not in the weapon.

Long Weapons: 2 is a good solution, it has been presentated 80 billion times and I agree with them all the time. Although Nords are Nords, they should get Long axes.

Stun, Chambering, Parry: about that chambering thing, when the game comes out, there will be plenty of servers with 50 ping or less, dont worry.

Infantry vs. Cavalry: Dont bumb up spears/pikes, a good thrust can stop a horse charge, done it my self a bunch of times.

Archery: Less invisible shield walls yes. Archers more damage? This will render higher tier armors less useful, and so people will be encouraged stick to light armor even if they have the money to buy better armor. Instead of bows dealing more damage, it should be the arrows, special arrows for special purposes.

Cavalry: Oh boy... CAVALRY NEEDS TO BE MORE POWERFUL! Sorry for the screaming, anyways the multiplayer compromises are costing the Singleplayers, in the singleplayer campaign, chargers cant even charge through 2 lines of men before heeling? WTF?
A few corrections.  I only say more damage to arrows because I have seen naked people get loaded full of like 3-5 arrows and not die and still get slashed and not die... what is that madness?
I only ment remove kicking from archers when their bow/crossbow is drawn.
and for spears not stopping horses... I have been run through by a COURSER many times inserting a pike right into the center of the horse and it doesn't rear up then I get couched by the unphased rider.
 
rockerjesse3 said:
MountandBladeKinsman said:
I agree with you on cavalry, the cavalry now is super weak, but just to tell you, if you ran into a spear, your horse will stall.

Kicking: Yes, it needs a cooldown time. Remove them from archers? Archers are weak in melee already, anyways, crossbowmen and archers can always sidekick so their weapon is not in the weapon.

Long Weapons: 2 is a good solution, it has been presentated 80 billion times and I agree with them all the time. Although Nords are Nords, they should get Long axes.

Stun, Chambering, Parry: about that chambering thing, when the game comes out, there will be plenty of servers with 50 ping or less, dont worry.

Infantry vs. Cavalry: Dont bumb up spears/pikes, a good thrust can stop a horse charge, done it my self a bunch of times.

Archery: Less invisible shield walls yes. Archers more damage? This will render higher tier armors less useful, and so people will be encouraged stick to light armor even if they have the money to buy better armor. Instead of bows dealing more damage, it should be the arrows, special arrows for special purposes.

Cavalry: Oh boy... CAVALRY NEEDS TO BE MORE POWERFUL! Sorry for the screaming, anyways the multiplayer compromises are costing the Singleplayers, in the singleplayer campaign, chargers cant even charge through 2 lines of men before heeling? WTF?
A few corrections.  I only say more damage to arrows because I have seen naked people get loaded full of like 3-5 arrows and not die and still get slashed and not die... what is that madness?
I only ment remove kicking from archers when their bow/crossbow is drawn.
and for spears not stopping horses... I have been run through by a COURSER many times inserting a pike right into the center of the horse and it doesn't rear up then I get couched by the unphased rider.
That has never happened to my hunter... although...  we they about next to you when you tried insertion?
 

Úlfheðinn

Section Moderator
WB
rockerjesse3 said:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Long Weapons: I have 2 proposed options on this... 1.  Just completally remove these weapons from the december patch with the exception of the khergits and the rhodok spiked club as they are somewhat balanced. 
2.If you swing these weapons they are going to take a ton of strength out of you... so in order to balance them, make them unspamable; Unfeintable, if you swing there should be a slight stun before you can attack a second time, not too great just enough time for the enemy to retaliate in which case the user must block or kick.  This should be the same with all heavy weapons i.e. Warhammer, Long axes, WarCleaver.
[/list]

I think the long weapons can be balanced simply be tweaking the values or forcing them to use a polearm grip.

Honestly, I have strongly disagree with option two. It seems like an effort to make them utterly useless. Why would I use a weapon which cannot feint(when virtually every other weapon ingame can)? All it would result in would be the old short sword combo of doom, where all you had to do was block once and then spam a 2H to death. Mind you that was with a speed difference, if we then add set limit to how often one can attack it would be even worse.



Finally, I propose we not compare Mutliplayer Warband to Singleplayer Warband, they should run as two different modules. What will work in SP will not work in MP and vice versa.
 

Madnes5

i think they should also add a block for bows / xbows. maybe in the future if they implemented it they would add a broken xbow / damaged xbow option
 

Faranox

Knight at Arms
M&BWBWF&SVC
Madnes5 said:
i think they should also add a block for bows / xbows. maybe in the future if they implemented it they would add a broken xbow / damaged xbow option
I disagree. Rangers should know when to switch to melee, and they should have to switch. The allure of "one block so I have time to switch weapons" is quite silly to me.
 

Halcyon

Sergeant Knight
Faranox said:
Madnes5 said:
i think they should also add a block for bows / xbows. maybe in the future if they implemented it they would add a broken xbow / damaged xbow option
I disagree. Rangers should know when to switch to melee, and they should have to switch. The allure of "one block so I have time to switch weapons" is quite silly to me.

actually that one last shot might be more useful than switching. Although generally yes a ranger should know when to switch there is little incentive for this because of their bad melee proficiencies. (overall proficiencies need to be changed.) but i would say 100 prof. in melee for rangers is decent and does not overpower them, it makes them more competitive. Alternatively if foot shots were brought back (shield forcefields done away with) then i would 90 prof would be the magical number. (rhodok xbow already has 100, swadia, nord ranger 90 and vaegir khergit 80.)

as for kicking yes it is somewhat broken, however to fix it i would have the recovery time sped up, but cooldown slowed down. i.e if you kick and miss you will recover faster (block, shield, walk w.e sooner.) but will have to wait longer to use kick again. maybe 5 seconds? this would apply to kicks on target and kicks that miss.

Long weapons should be removed. long bardiches, hafted maces (because they dont really fit imo, or boost blunt dmg). keep 1 long axe, just 1 and it can only be used in polearm mode. Add polearm mode to bardiche and great bardiche.

As for archery there should be slightly less randomization of the projectile, and a larger difference in velocity (how far bows can shoot) between each higher tier, and a clearer advantage to the high tier ones instead of the 3 point dmg difference and slower speed.
 

CalenLoki

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Hmm... big multi-idea threads are quite popular now :razz:

1. Kicking
-should be allowed with any weapon. To prevent archer from last shot+kick+switch combo, weapon switching should be lengthened.
-more risk should be added to kicking, something like: if something hit you while you are kicking (enemy swing, thrust kick, horse or even arrow) you should have huge chance to be knocked down (ofc. blunt should have bonus). Reaso? you stand on one foot - not so good position to keep balance.

2. To balance heaviest weapons they should just receive same stun when they miss or are parried as they deal to blocker (big risk, big reward).
Proper models (long long axe, even longer long axe, mauls, ect) and animations (all polearm weapons, including short (<100) ones) are separte topic.

3. Stun: as above. enemy block - he is stunned, enemy parry or you miss - you are stunned.

4. Cavalry - agree, they should be better (more charge damage, less chances to rear when bump into enemy, more hp) but also horseman should be more tied to his horse (falling damage!)

5. Archers - agree, more in other threads.
 

Zaakjes

Squire
M&BWB
I only agree with 5 and 6. I especially don't like the new horse controlling. I used to like khergit the most, but not anymore for that reason.

anyway there's another good idea of yours.. ;p I think I'll make a list of complaints too. might be good support for the MB team.
 

Plazek

Master Knight
WB
Being kicked to death in a corner when surrounded is not ridiculous. You should not get pushed into a corner it is the obvious stupid place to be! Neither is kicking a guy then shooting him IMO it makes me rage whenever I am stupid enough to let it happen but it is a smart use of the kick mechanic.

Don't completely remove the long weapons, make them into polearms and give them more realistic axe heads and damage. Arguably they should do slightly less damage than the great axe. Realistic or not, it is for game balance, long axes are much longer, not much slower and do way more damage right now. Reach + speed + slightly lower damage actually would be fair. Along with polearm animations. OF course if they still make the game annoying after being made "reaosnable" remove them then.

Chambering is NOT broken, it needs to be hard if it is not hard anyone would be able to do it all the time and the game would be turned into Assassins Creed where all you do to win is wait for your opponent to attack you and then counter attack. Besides there are better ways of fixing the stun mechanic, a way I and Test and I think several others have supported since before it was even implemented, which I will not repeat now. Simply though it involves chambering -> stuns -> fun.

Infantry only has the upper hand against stupid cavalry. Also you are probably talking about light cavalry hardly anyone goes heavy. Yesterday I bought a charger and had some nice amrour for myself. I was dancing around getting shot at by arrows and stabbed by spears for a good 30 seconds surrounded by enemies. I lost only just over half my health for that. If I Had been on a courser(as 90% of people are) then I would have been dead and rightly so. Anyway after that I pulle dout played smart instead of charging and survived the round, though my horse did not ;(

I do not think that taking 3 arrow hits is a problem also I have not seen that happen with many naked guys recently but then again there are not many naked guys recently at least in EU. However I definitely agree with magic shield forcefields and invisible barriers arond buildings, trees etc.

Cavalry, I killed 3 guys with head/body stabs in about 3 seconds yesterday. I think cavalry is pretty powerful. Couch lance damage does need a small boost though especially as it is less effective when using horses designed for charging in as they have such low speed. Maybe horses should get nitrous :grin:
 

Setton

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
I'm with the OP completely on this. It's exactly what I've been thinking for a while especially aboiut parry.

As you say, it wasn't broken but some players couldn't get used to it and wouldn't practice so they complained a load and got it removed.

Also cavalry is pathetic at the moment - being able to beat a horseman with a short sword is just ridiculous.
 

Jess_the_Hobozerk

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Plazek said:
Being kicked to death in a corner when surrounded is not ridiculous. You should not get pushed into a corner it is the obvious stupid place to be! Neither is kicking a guy then shooting him IMO it makes me rage whenever I am stupid enough to let it happen but it is a smart use of the kick mechanic.

Don't completely remove the long weapons, make them into polearms and give them more realistic axe heads and damage. Arguably they should do slightly less damage than the great axe. Realistic or not, it is for game balance, long axes are much longer, not much slower and do way more damage right now. Reach + speed + slightly lower damage actually would be fair. Along with polearm animations. OF course if they still make the game annoying after being made "reaosnable" remove them then.

Chambering is NOT broken, it needs to be hard if it is not hard anyone would be able to do it all the time and the game would be turned into Assassins Creed where all you do to win is wait for your opponent to attack you and then counter attack. Besides there are better ways of fixing the stun mechanic, a way I and Test and I think several others have supported since before it was even implemented, which I will not repeat now. Simply though it involves chambering -> stuns -> fun.

Infantry only has the upper hand against stupid cavalry. Also you are probably talking about light cavalry hardly anyone goes heavy. Yesterday I bought a charger and had some nice amrour for myself. I was dancing around getting shot at by arrows and stabbed by spears for a good 30 seconds surrounded by enemies. I lost only just over half my health for that. If I Had been on a courser(as 90% of people are) then I would have been dead and rightly so. Anyway after that I pulle dout played smart instead of charging and survived the round, though my horse did not ;(

I do not think that taking 3 arrow hits is a problem also I have not seen that happen with many naked guys recently but then again there are not many naked guys recently at least in EU. However I definitely agree with magic shield forcefields and invisible barriers arond buildings, trees etc.

Cavalry, I killed 3 guys with head/body stabs in about 3 seconds yesterday. I think cavalry is pretty powerful. Couch lance damage does need a small boost though especially as it is less effective when using horses designed for charging in as they have such low speed. Maybe horses should get nitrous :grin:
1.  I never said that I get kicked into a corner, but I've seen it happen and it is really stupid and should give kick a 2 second cool down at least.
2.  I've always said that long axes should have been pole arm only if they deal that much damage but no one listens, they love spamming the long axe.
3.  Chambering is not broken for low pingers.  Come to a US server with 100 ping and try to do it.  It is near impossible when you are trying in a practice fight.  In a real fight it is near impossible except thrust and overhead.  I did not say make it rediculously easy, I said change it from having to time it perfect to certain positions which is still hard to pull off but not impossible for 50-100 pingers.
5.  I have terrible luck in every game I play so maybe it is only me where I can load a guy up with 3 seige crossbow hits or 5 heavy war bow bodkin arrow hits without him dieing.
4.  I am able to kill "good cavalry" with even short sword easily even if they are on chargers or whatever.
6.  Cavalry wouldn't like this but if it were me, I would make it so you have to aim your couch more direct (less wobbly and harder to change at a full charge speed) but make horses much more maneuverable.
 

Plazek

Master Knight
WB
1) I did not disagree with a cooldown :razz:
It would be good cause it would stop a single player being able to pin a guy in a corner which I admit is a bit ridiculous.
2) Is suggesting extremes a better thing than suggesting what you actually think is best?
3) Well maybe it could be a little easier but I feel the Asassins Creed point still stands :smile:
4) Also remmeber it is much easier to remember the anomalies where it takes 5 shots than when it takes a normal amount.
5) Sure it is possible but it takes a lot of hits.
6) I like that

I would just like to clarify I am not against everything you said in your post. I just pointed out what I disagree with if I did not mention something you did that probably means I agree with you or do not feel either way for it.
For example right now stunning really is horribly overpowered.
 

Big_Mac

Grandmaster Knight
WBM&BNW
Totally agree, especially with removing the added 2h, the ones before were fine but still spammed so why add longer ones?
Cav is far too weak also, full speed courser today, weakes armour. No kill  :shock:
Kicking aswell is a great addition but cornering someone is ridiculous, i hate it when it happens to me but i hate it when i do it to someone  :sad: (it has to be done though!).
The invisible shield is total BS aswell, although it works for some people...WTF?

But the thing imo opinion that needs to be fixed asap is the hit detection, how weapons reach longer than the animation, i was on the duel server the other day and saw a kill from about 1m away from the blade o.0
 

Jess_the_Hobozerk

Grandmaster Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Big_Mac said:
Totally agree, especially with removing the added 2h, the ones before were fine but still spammed so why add longer ones?
Cav is far too weak also, full speed courser today, weakes armour. No kill  :shock:
Kicking aswell is a great addition but cornering someone is ridiculous, i hate it when it happens to me but i hate it when i do it to someone  :sad: (it has to be done though!).
The invisible shield is total BS aswell, although it works for some people...WTF?

But the thing imo opinion that needs to be fixed asap is the hit detection, how weapons reach longer than the animation, i was on the duel server the other day and saw a kill from about 1m away from the blade o.0
That is refered to as ping, not the stats of the weapon being too long for the model, I have tested the weapons, it is ping.
 

Tigerclaw

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
I think there are some good ideas in here, I think I'll offer my opinion by categories.

Kicking: The single most game-breaking feature at the moment is kick-spamming, even more then long weapons. This is Medieval game, not Kung-Fu, but it is not at all uncommon to see players who kick after every single blow. If you tried that in a real fight, you'd lose your foot on the second kick. The problem is, that, as far as I can tell (and correct me if I'm wrong), you can't damage someone by hitting their kicking foot, you have to actually hit their body. That means that if you're trying to take advantage of the kick spamming and you're using a short weapon, like a sickle, there is only a tiny spot where you're too far away to be kicked but close enough to hit their body. If we could make it so that you can damage someone by hitting their foot/leg, that would be awesome. Either way, kick needs a cooldown time. 3 seconds sounds amazing. I'd take four, because I really feel that kicking someone more then once in a swordfight and getting away with it would be a rare occurrence. I like the other ideas about limiting kicks, except for not allowing archers/xbows to kick with their weapon drawn. I think a better solution would be to make the body pivot with the kick, because if you kick someone like that without any twisting of your hips or torso, your kick is going to be very weak, and I seriously doubt that it would make a trained fighting man lose control of his shield for a moment. Instead, change the animation so that you're kicking like you mean it, in which case the crosshairs is going to swing to the side and probably expand and it would become much more challenging to kick an opponent's shield down and then shoot him, which is no easy feat. Come to think of it, implementing a more realistic kick animation might help fix some of the melee problems, too.

Long weapons: I wouldn't remove all of the new long weapons, some are good. Keep the spiked club and the Khergit weapons, for sure. The two-handed cleaver isn't that unbalanced, but the Rhods already have the glaive, so...why? Keep the long bardiche, it fills a nice niche in the Vaegir lineup, and it really isn't overpowered. The great long bardiche, on the other hand, starts to enter the realm of the absurd, along with the two longest long axes. The shortest long axe seems to be fine, and allowing it to be used as a polearm also feels a niche in the Nord lineup. Keep the long mace! Two handed maces were very common in the Middle Ages for the same reason that one handed maces were - they were easy to make and even easier to train a soldier to use. "Hit him with this." You might slow it a little, as it isn't easy to swing something that heavy that quickly. I have a though regarding the two handed stun idea. If you swing a long object with a heavy weight on the end, it is very difficult to stop it and reverse direction. It is actually much easier to do this if someone or something stops the blow in mid-swing. So, rather then causing a slight delay before a second swing if the weapon is parried, implement the delay when the weapon misses. This would encourage the tactic off avoiding your opponent's swing and then jumping in while he is over-extended and recovering, which is foundational to shield and handweapon tactics.

Stun/Chamber/Parry: I don't really have enough experience with chamber blocking or the short-live parry feature to discuss them intelligently, so I shall refrain. Stunning, on the the other hand, is an issue with which I'm familiar. The only problem that I'm noticing is with hammers. Guy swings at you with a hammer, you block with your shield...and you can't swing...finally, the stun ends, you begin to attack...and his hammer sweeps in as you pull you weapon back to the chambered position and kills. This is a serious problem. I think the stun effect against shields is dubious, to begin with - how is having a hammer swung against a shield which by design diffuses the force of attacks, going to prevent me from counterattacking for such a lengthy period? This makes a little more sense against one handed weapons, although it seems to me that if a hammer impact is so powerful that you can't counterattack for that long, why didn't it just crush through your one-handed block...? I'd suggest that we shorten the stun period significantly, and perhaps remove stun against shields entirely.

Archery: Yes, arrows should do more damage. No-armor/lightly armored people should die with one or two. On the other hand, a system should be introduced to reflect the "randomness" of armor, by which I mean that an arrow (or sword) might bounce off of a piece of armor one time and penetrate the next. Factoring this into the game would be nice.

Infantry vs. Cavalry & Cavalry: Lower the horse jump to a more realistic height, but don't make spears an automatic stop. Write some kind of a probability formula based off of the weight/armor of the horse. On the other hand, hitting a horse hard enough with a long sharp object to stop in it its tracks would probably kill the horse, since the only way that you're going to be able to do that is by planting your spear in the horse's chest. So, if spears are not going to always stop horses, then they should do much more damage when they do stop a horse. I also really like the idea about horses panicking a little when injured.

All in all, some good ideas, there Jesse, I'm sure you've given the devs plenty of good thinking material.
 
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