Late-Game Improvement Ideas

[WizardOfAtlantis]

As Windy suggested in the Development Pace Feedback thread, a good idea for a thread would be to talk of ideas for late-game improvements. He mentioned the Golden Horde that Baheshtur speaks of as an example of the Invading Army/ies theme. My only caveat for the GH is that it seems sort of reminiscent of the theme of the Khergits, and it might be kind of boring to have a new army enter into the game that is already like an already existent army.

An invading army of an entirely new faction would be something else entirely.

Also, I was wondering if it would be possible to have a Civil War possibility, where various rulers die and/or are assassinated, and the various nobles start a free-for-all among themselves. Of course, if your territories are already vast, then that might make your job of conquering Calradia even easier, unless your holdings are reduced as well. Then again, this might make it seem like you have to do everything all over again, so it might not be a good idea for that. Mostly, I like the idea of all the nobles breaking boundaries and going after lords near and far.

 

[TripleThreat]

Aha, beaten to the chase, I was just about to post my own thread on this topic, so I'll just copy and paste what I had written here though some of it may seem out of context, apologies.

The Problem I Find

I often find myself at a point where I control the majority of the land, whether through being a vassal or ruler and with only a couple of remaining factions preventing myself from 'completion'. At this point I, I normally feel like the remaining factions pose no real threat, and that I'm merely just going up and down the world, repeating the same thing, over and over: Defeat the Lord, capture the fief.

Victory is guaranteed, the challenge is gone, it's just a matter of time till the world is mine - knowing this - inspiration to continue begins to dwindle and I begin to become unsatisfied, as making any further progress seems redundant.

None of this is at fault with the mod, but the game its self.  The question is - how can this be improved to make the late-game more enjoyable? How do we give us something to work towards that isn't necessarily related to conquering every fief. I think a good example of this was the ability system, having to meet certain levels to assign a new ability gives the player something to work towards.

What To Avoid

I think it's important to avoid 'more of the same', for example, to make the killing and conquering more enjoyable, let's add more killing and conquering. This is unless it can be done in a way which gives us a unique experience and offers more to the player than just 'Well done, you've beaten the invasion, they're all gone now.'. If an invasion is to happen, it has to have some kind of major effect on the game, it has to effect the mechanics, it has to alter how you decide to play the game from this point onward, it has to be more than just a large group of enemies that are hard to defeat.

What To Consider

• What kind of systems can be implemented that give us a goal, something to work towards in the late game, that is meant to be built alongside the Kingdom?
• What can be done so that every play-through has the possibility to offer an unique and dynamic experience to the game?
• Ideas for unique and rewarding quests that can only be accessed when you've met certain high-level prerequisites. Such as Level, Relation, Right To Rule, Honor, Money, Lands.

A Couple Of Ideas (Brief Points)

• Investing money and resources into researching new technologies which unlock new tiers of troops AND/OR access to new abilities to choose from AND/OR fief building improvements.
• As a ruler, creating diplomatic relations overseas with other lands which can provide benefits such as access to unique troops, kingdom benefits, advancements in technology, income and international reputation. Poor relation can lead to invasion, loss of international reputation and global conflict.

I appreciate that the ideas I have are pretty huge and the development of them would be extremely time consuming and unlikely. Though they can be used as a reference for more feasible ideas. I look forward to seeing what other people can think of.

 

[Windyplains]

A Couple Of Ideas (Brief Points)

• Investing money and resources into researching new technologies which unlock new tiers of troops AND/OR access to new abilities to choose from AND/OR fief building improvements.
• As a ruler, creating diplomatic relations overseas with other lands which can provide benefits such as access to unique troops, kingdom benefits, advancements in technology, income and international reputation. Poor relation can lead to invasion, loss of international reputation and global conflict.

I appreciate that the ideas I have are pretty huge and the development of them would be extremely time consuming and unlikely. Though they can be used as a reference for more feasible ideas. I look forward to seeing what other people can think of.

Both of those ideas are possible and easier done within Silverstag's recruitment system than it would be in native.  One would just need to tag in a prerequisite for oversea faction troops or technologically advanced troops.

Tech expansion is really more about keeping track of stats (what was unlocked, by whom, etc...) and an interface to give you a view of what is available next.  There's the majority of its work.  Technologies could be as simple as some of the abilities that boost damage or as specific as ones that currently provide very specific benefits.  What did you have in mind?

Oversea troops.  The other invasion possibility would have been Georia, which we've hinted at for some time, but just haven't gotten around to implementing.  Considering that Lezalit is all about well-rounded armies drawing from the best in the region, this empire might actually have a much stronger military than most of the factions in Calradia.  Gaining troop reinforcements from some kind of treaty would be simple enough to add in from a recruitment standpoint, but to really make the system worth anything a great deal of diplomacy dialog and / or diplomatic quests would be needed.  What were you thinking of?

 

[locklear1174]

What To Avoid

I think it's important to avoid 'more of the same', for example, to make the killing and conquering more enjoyable, let's add more killing and conquering. This is unless it can be done in a way which gives us a unique experience and offers more to the player than just 'Well done, you've beaten the invasion, they're all gone now.'. If an invasion is to happen, it has to have some kind of major effect on the game, it has to effect the mechanics, it has to alter how you decide to play the game from this point onward, it has to be more than just a large group of enemies that are hard to defeat.

What To Consider

• What kind of systems can be implemented that give us a goal, something to work towards in the late game, that is meant to be built alongside the Kingdom?
• What can be done so that every play-through has the possibility to offer an unique and dynamic experience to the game?
• Ideas for unique and rewarding quests that can only be accessed when you've met certain high-level prerequisites. Such as Level, Relation, Right To Rule, Honor, Money, Lands.

Everything I think is very off the top of my head, and may or may not be related to each other enjoy

How about something related to villager relations/land status in which the village may dispose of their ruler and offer themselves to another lord? This would then make it so that if a large scale invasion where made in which the invaders capture large portions of the world villages would decide for themselves who they would serve under.

I was also thinking relating to land prosperity helping to build up a village could with addition of buildings allow a militia which could then increase in strength based upon the raw materials they have? This would make it so that capturing towns with iron or leather for example could improve armor/weapons of that militia and give it some more importance in the game world. Perhaps even forming a unified militia of several towns to defend eachother in a raid?
This idea brought on by the quest in which towns send each other materials to rebuild after an attack. The time it takes to raid would have to be increased or the town militia speed on world map increased to make the unified militia idea viable I think.

Perhaps instead of levels I'm not sure if its possible to code like stat requirements to trigger a quest? You could do quests by level but then if certain people don't have appropriate build to proceed in a quest it would force them to play out of character. Doing quests specifically for stat requirements makes it a)more time consuming to make quests for 4 different stat lines b) give much more freedom in the writing of such quests as you know the audience the quest would cater to and what they're capable of.

I know nothing about modding yet so excuse me if nothing I say makes sense hahaha

 

[Windyplains]

I know nothing about modding yet so excuse me if nothing I say makes sense hahaha

All I need from folks is ideas on what they'd like to see and how they'd like to see it implemented if they could.  I'll let folks know what is beyond mine or the module system's capability.  For example, I'm generally against things that require much investment of artwork (that isn't OSP) as I never got past the crayon stage and even my kid does better work with stick figures.

 

[wrwlf]

Ever since first playing Warband I've always wondered why there is a prosperity for each Village/Town/Castle, but no peasant rebellions. I've thought about how this could be added, maybe by keeping track for how many days/months a fief has been very poor? How many times it has been raided? I was thinking of using the Town/Castle as the main reference, and then creating a new rebel faction from the existing garrison and adding the correlating villages to this faction.
I've only really started modding Warband recently, so I have no idea how difficult it is to have a set of "sleeper" rebel factions which are only activated and populated with Lords/King after a condition causes a Town/Castle+villages to "revolt".

Another factor into the revolt chance could be tracking how many times a fief owner visits that fief and the amount of time between visits. I think this could reflect the whole Medieval "I serve you, you protect me" Feudal system in a simple manner. Of course, this also means that as an owner of a fief(s), you have to spend the time to ensure that all your subjects have been "visited". I think this also works nicely within Silverstag, because of the fief exchange system which means you can "consolidate" your holdings.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[locklear1174]

Another factor into the revolt chance could be tracking how many times a fief owner visits that fief and the amount of time between visits. I think this could reflect the whole Medieval "I serve you, you protect me" Feudal system in a simple manner. Of course, this also means that as an owner of a fief(s), you have to spend the time to ensure that all your subjects have been "visited". I think this also works nicely within Silverstag, because of the fief exchange system which means you can "consolidate" your holdings.

Just my 2 cents.

Thats how I came about some of my ideas ^_^ cheers! I could agree with the visitation thing. It would make marshall's plans harder but perhaps villagers would be protected more often and instead of large parties forming a horde roaming the battle field you'd get lords parties battling between fiefs?

 

[locklear1174]

All I need from folks is ideas on what they'd like to see and how they'd like to see it implemented if they could.  I'll let folks know what is beyond mine or the module system's capability.  For example, I'm generally against things that require much investment of artwork (that isn't OSP) as I never got past the crayon stage and even my kid does better work with stick figures.

well cheers for designing awesome mod?

 

[Bankoleva]

I tend towards a Game ending quest. Something that triggers when the player claims dominion over 40% of all of Calradia. Maybe it is an Invading army, or some peasant got his hands on some....questionable pictures, or the walking dead, or your wife gets pregnant, or Loki decides to kick of Ragnarok.... whatever the case,... the threat is greater than your elite superman army can handle.

Player is on this time table, counting down the doom of the world.... 100 days.  And this 10 part quest is the ONLY way you get to survive long enough to see the BatmanV. Superman movie.  The player has to gather items, saves important monks, escorts virgins, builds the obelisk to gather the suns rays into the ruby of fate, holds out for 3 days at a LOTR Two Towers seige while the royal blacksmith and monks craft and affix the ruby to the obsidian javelin of John Snow, culminating in a battle of 5 million where you, all the kings, and your elites lead the charge to kill Odin himself. When it's all said and done, you get the girl, the gold and Game Over.

Basically my thought is you just spent 40 hours grinding up and fight in an open world no story game. Spend the last 5 hours in a story driven quest that makes you realize you were in the preseason the whole time. Revisit each game dynamic and tie it in to culminate in an exciting period filled with WTF's, Oh..... sShhhiiii.... I'm gonna need a lot of help..... I can't believe I just won.... moments. 

I want to look up, see my wife coming with my mother in law and think.... you know that King Ragnar is not really a bad guy. Sure he's a Nord and smells, killed my dog and 2 mistresses, game me a swirly at prom, tortured Nazir, and took my castle..... but I need help and he's better than nothing.

Something like that.

Yeah.

 

[Mukowalec]

I don't know if anybody here is familiar with Creative Assembly's Shogun 2. There is an event called Realm Divide when you hold specific number of provines. Basically before the divide you can maintain healthy relations with other factions (about 60~ factions at the start), like creating military alliances, and trading alliances. However after realm divide every faction - even previously allied with you, declare war on you.

You can apply similar event in warband after holding specific amount of fiefs - imagines 6 independent marshalls trying to conquer your lands !
This can be justified by some enemy royal adviser trying to undermine your right to rule by telling other Caldarians that you are recognized as some kind of psychopath or son of traitor - you get the idea.


Also there might be a betrayal chance when you are king - You basically loose all your lands and lords to some minor court member who basically replaces you as king. Most of your companions, and army are thrown to jail, and you loose relations with your lords, and your previously owned faction is hostile to you. This can be explained that this court member convinces other lords that he is the direct descendant of Caldarian Emperor.
You can fight those claims by learning the location (Normally invisible to player) of this court member fortress and conquering it(should be a pretty hard siege). There you can find evidence to expose this court member as an actual liar.


Other than that I suggest invasion by a more advanced faction - like oversea firearm wielding invading army. Equipment of these troops should be unique, and the only way to get them is from defeating enemy armies.

 

[UniversalWolf]

I prefer the idea of a "trump card."  An item or achievement that simply forces all other factions to recognize the player (or non-player, if one of them manages to complete it first) as the absolute victor.

I don't know whether any of you have ever played Master of Magic (one of the best games ever made, IMO).  Master of Magic is a competition between wizards to dominate two planes of existence.  You can win the game by destroying all your enemies, but you can also win by casting a spell called The Spell of Mastery.  Before you can cast The Spell of Mastery, you have to spend a long, long time researching it.  Once you've finished researching it, it still takes a long time just to cast it.  Once a wizard starts casting the SoM, every other wizard becomes aware of the danger and declares war.  But if any wizard successfully casts the spell, they gain control of all magic and instantly win the game, regardless of army size or conquered territory.  Having a huge empire does make it easier to cast the SoM though, so it's not really possible to win that way without the war part of the game.

I'm not sure what form this might take in Warband.  It could be an artifact that symbolizes the Emperor of Calradia, or a ritual, or almost anything.  In any case, it ought to be something that keeps all the warring kings awake at night no matter how powerful they become, since it means they can still lose everything.

I think this is a nice alternative to the invading hordes idea.

I like the invading hordes idea too, FWIW, but it's been done before.

 

[Ditchinit]

As opposed to simple banishment, have a mechanic whereby the Kings of the various [major/minor] Factions may either willingly, or by force, swear fealty to the Player as Emperor.  Start with the notion that all Kings of all factions once belonged to a supreme council that governed the land, and the council advised a single Emperor.

The Player wins by uniting all Kingdoms under one banner; by gathering together the previously fractured council.  The Player wouldn't necessarily need to conquer each and every village, castle or town to win, but he/she could.

The mechanic should have multiple ways of obtaining fealty:  by accumulation of wealth (and expenditure of said wealth to purchase loyalty), by domination through might of arms, diplomatically through strategic arranged marriage, through charismatic force and/or respect (i.e., relative values of honor, renown, personal favor, right-to-rule, etc.).

Each [major/minor] Faction leader would have his/her own criteria and thresholds that would need to be satisfied before fealty would be sworn.  Each  [major/minor] Faction leader would still lead his/her own faction, but as councilor to the Player.

In a plot twist, any Faction leader could take all the necessary steps to become Emperor; the first to do so unequivocally wins.  The player loses when, as the sole remaining resistance, he or she is captured by the proclaimed Emperor (or one of his/her Councilors) after battle.

Just my two denars.

 

[Windyplains]

As opposed to simple banishment, have a mechanic whereby the Kings of the various [major/minor] Factions may either willingly, or by force, swear fealty to the Player as Emperor.  Start with the notion that all Kings of all factions once belonged to a supreme council that governed the land, and the council advised a single Emperor.

This already exists.  You can capture an enemy king and force them to swear fealty (coercion check).

 

[Leifdin]

I think that we also need to look at non-military since prolonged periods of fighting tend to be tedious and after some time repetitive. I think that player could get a function of ambassador between two nations. He would improve diplomatic relationship by trading and giving gifts, helping with building prosperity (creating trading pacts, encouraging trade, improving road security, rebuilding pillaged villages, etc.), organizing cross-faction feasts, arranging marriages - eventually between rulers' heirs which would open a road to a final task, merging of two factions. In order to achieve that, the factions would need to have great relationship, extremely strong mercantile ties and possibly a certain number of marriages between them.

 

[GutsyFish]

How do you guys feel about some way of losing the game? Right now you can never really lose it, so the stakes aren't that high. "House rules" can fix that, but it isn't really the same. The player dying in combat, getting executed, sent to an island to rot etc.

I've played with self made house rules, implementing death to my character using different systems at different times. In my mind those playthroughs were a lot more exciting, kind of like iron man mode or hardcore mode from other games (anyone that's played Diablo 2 on hardcore mode knows the feeling). The system I had most fun with was a d20 based, first time my character got knocked out a roll of 1 would've resulted in death, second time 2 and so on this was also very simple, if implemented into the game there'd be room for a more complex system. Maybe tie these in with (and develop) the aging system, speeding the game up. Of course the more in depth you want it to be the more difficult it becomes. Just thought I'd share my thoughts.

Oh and it's a wonderful mod Windy.

 

[TripleThreat]

How do you guys feel about some way of losing the game? Right now you can never really lose it, so the stakes aren't that high. "House rules" can fix that, but it isn't really the same. The player dying in combat, getting executed, sent to an island to rot etc.

Perhaps a Hardcore/Iron Man difficulty mode? Should be nice and easy to implement. Simply, Instead of getting knocked unconscious when in battle, you instead die and the game is over. That way, the system is completely optional for those less comfortable. Furthermore I think it would be quite an attractive option for people doing YouTube Let's Plays.

 

[Windyplains]

How do you guys feel about some way of losing the game? Right now you can never really lose it, so the stakes aren't that high. "House rules" can fix that, but it isn't really the same. The player dying in combat, getting executed, sent to an island to rot etc.

Perhaps a Hardcore/Iron Man difficulty mode? Should be nice and easy to implement. Simply, Instead of getting knocked unconscious when in battle, you instead die and the game is over. That way, the system is completely optional for those less comfortable. Furthermore I think it would be quite an attractive option for people doing YouTube Let's Plays.

This would be very easy to add in as an optional feature.  Please put in a ticket with how you'd like it to work.

 

[TripleThreat]

How do you guys feel about some way of losing the game? Right now you can never really lose it, so the stakes aren't that high. "House rules" can fix that, but it isn't really the same. The player dying in combat, getting executed, sent to an island to rot etc.

Perhaps a Hardcore/Iron Man difficulty mode? Should be nice and easy to implement. Simply, Instead of getting knocked unconscious when in battle, you instead die and the game is over. That way, the system is completely optional for those less comfortable. Furthermore I think it would be quite an attractive option for people doing YouTube Let's Plays.

This would be very easy to add in as an optional feature.  Please put in a ticket with how you'd like it to work.

I've created the Ticket, #1718.

 

[WizardOfAtlantis]

How do you guys feel about some way of losing the game? Right now you can never really lose it, so the stakes aren't that high. "House rules" can fix that, but it isn't really the same. The player dying in combat, getting executed, sent to an island to rot etc.

Perhaps a Hardcore/Iron Man difficulty mode? Should be nice and easy to implement. Simply, Instead of getting knocked unconscious when in battle, you instead die and the game is over. That way, the system is completely optional for those less comfortable. Furthermore I think it would be quite an attractive option for people doing YouTube Let's Plays.

I am very happy someone brought this up. I always play the game this way myself. I generally don't get too terribly far into the game, either, as a rule, as I am pretty daring with who I like to attack and take risks.

I see player unconsciousness as an obvious game mechanic, and I think, "Would these guys keep me alive for a handful of denars or would they just stick a knife in my neck and take my gear? Did that arrow that just hit me in the head *merely* knock me unconscious...did it really?" The answer in my head is almost always negative, and so I almost always feel like I'm cheating when I get knocked out and then taken prisoner *knowing that I am going to escape*.

Basically, in the mental gymnastics I do in my head, if I get knocked unconscious but my side wins the battle, I can go on as I feel that my troops get me to medical care. If we lose the battle, then that's the end. I think in reality that taking prisoners for money is much more of a hassle than selling gear, unless you're a noble or of an established family where the reward is much greater, and that's with legal factions. With outlaw factions, it's an even more clear-cut decision in my mind that they're going to knife you and take your stuff.

A less clear-cut way of doing it would be to roll the dice, and even include one's abilities into the factoring of one's percentages. Unconsciousness=death or unconsciousness, being taken prisoner=death or prisoner, being a prisoner=end of game/life in the mines or ransom if you're noble/established or the minute chance of escape.

Ironflesh might help surviving wounds/unconsciousness. Renown, honor, and noble titles will factor into being taken prisoner instead of being killed while unconscious if you lose the battle, as well as being held for ransom instead of being shipped off to the mines. One's highest attribute might figure into the chances of escaping being held prisoner, as a silver tongue to sway wayward ear, strong wrists to break bonds, etc, all might figure into the myriad ways to escape.

It also might work into things that if you a: survive the blow to the head on the losing side, b: are taken prisoner instead of being killed, then you have a limited time before the captors take you to your destination, which will be either a mine or some other permanent enslavement/game end, or if you are a noble or with high renown and they want the money, some sort of dungeon. Escape should always be easier before you get to these places, and much more difficult once you get there if not impossible. I'd view, for the game's sake, a non-noble, low-renown mine-type destination as inescapable.

 

[GutsyFish]

Regarding the permadeath, maybe it could be done in multiple calculations sort of like a flowchart, first you'd calculate the chance of death and then the capture and so on. Is it possible to measure how much "negative" health the player gets? Getting hit in the head by a lance or crossbow bolt puts you in serious danger of dying, while ending up on -1hp wouldn't be as dangerous. Then you could tie it all up with the first aid skill.

If you end up captured your relationship with the capturing lord and his personality would decide your outcome. There's probably tons of other things you could do with this.

As for the actual lategame, adding an endgame quest sort of removes the sandbox of it. That doesn't mean an endgame quest wouldn't be incredibly cool. If the goal is to conquer Calradia and unify it under one banner, then more options to do that would make it more interesting, and I think adding stuff like civil unrest and other domestic issues could make it more challenging, hopefully in a way that isn't tedious. Another idea is to build on the current aging system for the player, minus stat points after x days (or is that removed in the mod?) and add a kind of time limit because of that. Being immortal allows you to always make wise and calculated decisions. Having a deadline could possibly force the player to make suboptimal decisions and gambles, which combined with more options in the lategame could make it really interesting. Food for thought.