Lancer AI

[Jaquestrap]

Alright, so I have wanted this in the game for quite some time, but finally just decided that I should probably just recommend it.


I think that a great addition to this game would be putting in an AI for certain mounted units that makes them act like a lancer would. This means that they would charge in with couched lances, and then keep charging through the enemy without slowing down, just going right through and after breaking through the enemy army, turning back around and repeating the process. Currently, there is a horse archer AI in the game that causes the horse archers to start running away and shooting as soon as an enemy tries to get close. I believe that an AI for some cavalry units that actually causes them to charge and keep charging would really be a big addition to the game.

Currently, whenever I am playing on my Swadian, I am always using a bunch of Swadian Knights/Men At Arms. Whenever I tell them to charge, or follow me through the enemy army, many of them refuse to use their lances, and switch to their swords or maces from the beginning. Then, as soon as we hit the enemy and the ones with lances out kill a few, all of them (armed with lances or not) start slowing down and hitting the enemy with swords or maces. This then causes the enemy infantry to swarm around the knights, and even though each hit only does 0-2 damage on average, it still causes them to flinch, and the infantry is blocking the horses, and the knights cannot attack. This could also apply to Khergit Lancers, but first you would have to make them all carry a lance because currently I see many Khergit lancers carrying maces etc. instead.

Now some of you will say "But if you make the cavalry stop slowing down, then infantry kingdoms will be screwed!" Well my counterpoint is that this should only apply to cavalry that carry lances, and that along with this should probably come a nice buff to the infantry. Also some of you might say that such an effect is possible if you just tell your knights to follow you, well it really isn't, because:

A. Like I mentioned, the knights will simply slow down regardless of your speed, for even just a few seconds to time a swipe, and this causes them to be swarmed and then either killed or nearly killed and my having to wait for a while for him to catch up with my main group.

B. They just use swords or maces from the beginning, and thus makes their charge nearly useless, apart from the charge damage done by their mounts.

C. All of them do not keep up (not because I am on a fast horse). All of them like to turn a bit and get at least 3 good swipes done before they finally decide to keep following me, and by that time I have been waiting for quite a while for all of them to come to me.

So that is about it, i would really appreciate it if this suggestion got some attention by the devs, cause it would really make the game a lot better for a lot of people, just like the horse archer AI made horse archers actually useful.

 

[Chilly5]

I agree with this idea.
Although my biggest concern is the player...it's not really fun to be couched lanced to death from behind constantly...

 

[Adept]

I want an option for realistic lances. One devastating use, after which the lance is either broke or stuck in a victim.

It would be cool to be able to lead a strike force of lancers on a charge, so that all would use lances. After the lance charge, they would switch to sidearms. It would be cool to have squires, or just more lances sticking from the ground where the baggage is, so one could get a new one for another charge.

As they are now the lances are weird and overpowered. I mostly refuse to use them, because they just feel like cheating.

 

[Saber Cherry]

I want an option for realistic lances. One devastating use, after which the lance is either broke or stuck in a victim.

/agree

You can't just load up 12 bodies on a lance like a shish kebab and keep using it, because even if YOU have 200 strength and a titanium-nanotube lance, your horse's legs will break under the weight.  A couched lance should be able to deal one massive blow in battle - the first time it strikes for 30+ damage (i.e., a non-glancing blow), after which is is unavailable for the remainder of the combat session.

 

[tamuli]

For shame.

 

[DamienZharkoff]

As they are now the lances are weird and overpowered. I mostly refuse to use them, because they just feel like cheating.

Yeah, i now use nomad scimitar or two hander

 

[Syke]

I want an option for realistic lances. One devastating use, after which the lance is either broke or stuck in a victim.

/agree

You can't just load up 12 bodies on a lance like a shish kebab and keep using it, because even if YOU have 200 strength and a titanium-nanotube lance, your horse's legs will break under the weight.  A couched lance should be able to deal one massive blow in battle - the first time it strikes for 30+ damage (i.e., a non-glancing blow), after which is is unavailable for the remainder of the combat session.

What might work a little better is a health system just like for shields.  So most high-qual lances would hit their threshold with a 40+ hit or so and break.  Lower damage hits would hurt the lance, but not break it outright.  Damage probably shouldn't be strictly proportional to damage dealt, but graded.  So for instance, <2 damage would be ignored, at 3-10 damage, 50% of damage dealt would be subtracted from the lances HP.  At 11-25, 75%.  At 26+ 100%.  So if your lance has 40 HP, and you strike someone twice for 3 and 9 damage, the lance would now be at 34 HP.  You hit again for 12 and then 19 damage and it's now at 10.75 HP.  You score one final strike for 28 and it's broken.  These numbers for gradation that I came up with are completely arbitrary of course and would have to be worked at to create something balanced but hopefully they get my point across.

 

[DamienZharkoff]

I like the weapon HP

 

[PIL313]

if your lance is broken in combat do you need to by a new 1? or does it "regenerate" after the combat?

 

[Jericho]

I want an option for realistic lances. One devastating use, after which the lance is either broke or stuck in a victim.

It would be cool to be able to lead a strike force of lancers on a charge, so that all would use lances. After the lance charge, they would switch to sidearms. It would be cool to have squires, or just more lances sticking from the ground where the baggage is, so one could get a new one for another charge.

As they are now the lances are weird and overpowered. I mostly refuse to use them, because they just feel like cheating.

This has been suggested before. It had been extensively debated and IIRC after the release of .903 Armagan said there
won't be breakable weapons - EVER.

Although I was (still am) in favor of breakable weapons (lances especially) I do not want to see lancers nerfed anymore!
The have been steadily nerfed with the past few releases and with .95# they are perfect. The delay between couch
attacks, the lesser damage of doing a thrust attack - Lancing is just fine.

NOW if you don't think you should be able to lance 12 or more opponents, then do what I do and STOP using it after
the second or third couch lance attack and don't use it for the rest of that battle unless you go to your inventory chest
(simulate getting another lance from your squire.)

So PLEASE let us not have a new debate about breaking lances or nerfing lancers. 

EDIT:
btw here is a that previous discussion...http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,26387.0.html

EDIT #2:
WTF! DUDE you posted that originally! Are you trying to stir up this SETTLED debate again? 

 

[jeroen]

i like to think of it a carried big arrow.
like an arrow the tip-1/4 will actually stick inside them if you hit them, after the rest of the lance, the half-3/4 will drop to the ground.
and as with the arrows, it will 'regenerate' after battle.
and with the double-sided lance you can use it twice by just holding it backwards front, if you get my point.


*sorry, for this just behind. you posted whist i wrote

 

[DamienZharkoff]

I had brought up a topic about this before where... The AI of my hired blades is.. Walk 1MPH from a group of enemies on his flank and keep trying to swing at them with a short sword until they get dehorsed and killed.

Better Cavalry AI is desperately needed for everyone but mounted polearms users

 

[Liam the Ranger]

Better AI all around at the moment its like little kids playing soccer. They all chase after the ball and end up in a big tight group kicking each other. Archers should look for high defensible positions. Footmen should look to stay in tight groups so that they can defend against cavalry and they should remember that they have horse and use its speed not get stuck standing in the middle of a group of people carring long sticks.

 

[Saber Cherry]

Although I was (still am) in favor of breakable weapons (lances especially) I do not want to see lancers nerfed anymore!
The have been steadily nerfed with the past few releases and with .95# they are perfect. The delay between couch
attacks, the lesser damage of doing a thrust attack - Lancing is just fine.

They're very unrealistic in a game that is supposed to simulate medieval mounted combat, so it's not fine or perfect.  Power-wise - especially in an arena, if you give me (or anyone with a little experience) a horse and lance, it's an assured victory, barring an unlucky arrow in the back of the neck.  The power of thrusts with a lance irrelevant; if they are too weak for you, then bring a lance for the initial charge and a secondary weapon to use subsequently - just like in reality!  Where's the problem?

And by the way, 1-use lances and weapon HP are two different issues that can but need not overlap.  I am in favor of weapon HP, but it should not distract people from the point, which is that lances are currently extremely powerful due to the fact that they are not modeled/simulated realistically by the game engine.

 

[DamienZharkoff]

Although I was (still am) in favor of breakable weapons (lances especially) I do not want to see lancers nerfed anymore!
The have been steadily nerfed with the past few releases and with .95# they are perfect. The delay between couch
attacks, the lesser damage of doing a thrust attack - Lancing is just fine.

They're very unrealistic in a game that is supposed to simulate medieval mounted combat, so it's not fine or perfect.  Power-wise - especially in an arena, if you give me (or anyone with a little experience) a horse and lance, it's an assured victory, barring an unlucky arrow in the back of the neck.  The power of thrusts with a lance irrelevant; if they are too weak for you, then bring a lance for the initial charge and a secondary weapon to use subsequently - just like in reality!  Where's the problem?

And by the way, 1-use lances and weapon HP are two different issues that can but need not overlap.  I am in favor of weapon HP, but it should not distract people from the point, which is that lances are currently extremely powerful due to the fact that they are not modeled/simulated realistically by the game engine.

I agree fully with the chibi mew mew!

Armagan SAYS no weapons HP.. BUT I say If we each ffer him a cookie he may do it? heh
C'mon armagan... do it for a cookie?

 

[Art Falmingaid]

I have Bahestur in my party.  He carries a nomad sabre and a bow.  For the longest time, he refused to use the bow until his skill with it was increased.  I think that might be the problem with lancers running into battle with sidearms.  A lot of the troops have odd skill levels.

 

[Maedhros]

I want an option for realistic lances. One devastating use, after which the lance is either broke or stuck in a victim.

I don't agree with this for ONE simple reason: combat lances aren't made to break after one use.

Jousting lances were the only ones that were crafted in such a way that they would break immediately after-hitting/during-the-hit-on the competitor's shield or armor, so that it would not injure the defeated - too much.

In war, you're supposed to hurt other people



But since they would probably break after a few uses, I would actually like to see Syke's suggestion implemented:

What might work a little better is a health system just like for shields.  So most high-qual lances would hit their threshold with a 40+ hit or so and break.  Lower damage hits would hurt the lance, but not break it outright.  Damage probably shouldn't be strictly proportional to damage dealt, but graded.  So for instance, <2 damage would be ignored, at 3-10 damage, 50% of damage dealt would be subtracted from the lances HP.  At 11-25, 75%.  At 26+ 100%.  So if your lance has 40 HP, and you strike someone twice for 3 and 9 damage, the lance would now be at 34 HP.  You hit again for 12 and then 19 damage and it's now at 10.75 HP.  You score one final strike for 28 and it's broken.  These numbers for gradation that I came up with are completely arbitrary of course and would have to be worked at to create something balanced but hopefully they get my point across.

 

[Adept]

I want an option for realistic lances. One devastating use, after which the lance is either broke or stuck in a victim.

I don't agree with this for ONE simple reason: combat lances aren't made to break after one use.

Jousting lances were the only ones that were crafted in such a way that they would break immediately after-hitting/during-the-hit-on the competitor's shield or armor, so that it would not injure the defeated - too much.

In war, you're supposed to hurt other people

I'm afraid you are still missing the point. A jousting lance splinteres on the hit. A war lance runs the victim through. The immediate reusability is the same. There is no way to extract the long pole form your opponents chest as you gallop past, hence the one use / lance.

Breakable weapons are too fiddly for the devs. Making the lance one use / battle would be much easier.

 

[Art Falmingaid]

Breakable weapons are too fiddly for the devs. Making the lance one use / battle would be much easier.

Then all weapons would have to be breakable or have a set number of uses.  If my lance breaks one use, then infantry spears should break when they hit a charging horse and such.  Its much easier to keep the current system, and I believe the devs have at one point made the statement that weapons will never have limited uses or hitpoints.

 

[Adept]

Breakable weapons are too fiddly for the devs. Making the lance one use / battle would be much easier.

Then all weapons would have to be breakable or have a set number of uses.  If my lance breaks one use, then infantry spears should break when they hit a charging horse and such.  Its much easier to keep the current system, and I believe the devs have at one point made the statement that weapons will never have limited uses or hitpoints.

How does that follow? Having one use lances in no way requires the other changes you suggest.

Look, I'd like this to be a toggle. It's a one player game anyway. Those of us who like realistic limits on lancing could have it, those who want to personally ride down dozens of knights with their super lance, could keep things like they are now.

I'm a realism fan, and the greatest appeal of M&B for me is in it's mostly realistic feel. The strange lances break this for me.