Lance couching seems useless right now.

[karijus]

uh, I don't run straight into enemy, I aim the lance to the right and kill someone on my right side while running past them without stopping, like the knights in medieval tournaments, seems to work just as well as in warband, and doesn't have to be very long to work. The practical value is in being able to skewer infantry and stuff with these drive byes, without them being able to touch you, and it's easier with couch because I don't have to time the stab, though the lances I found were still a bit on the short end though.

 

[9yearsago]

In Warband when you are charging at an enemy that have a shorter weapon than your lance, you almost guarantee your kill. In this game however I am afraid of charging at even looters with a pitchfork, they always manage to hit me. Shorter lances are definitely an issue but additionaly cavalry hitboxes are HUGE compared to Warband, in order to give infantry some advantage over mounted units.

Sneeze next to a cavalry unit and you can hit them, there you go.

 

[Bannerman Man]

I find couching to be the easiest way to ensure a kill when riding through a group of enemies. Just press 'X' and ride through and you're almost guaranteed a kill at very little risk. If you're charging head on, or if you notice a spearman looking at you, just veer off and find another target rather than risk the counterstrike. The Eastern Noble Lance is my go-to, with 200 reach.

Swinging polearms around like baseball bats on horseback is what requires more suspension of disbelief IMO. And it also makes it too easy to slice and dice your way through dozens of infantry.

But I'm sure we'll see the devs fine tune all the equipment in the game at some point, and this will probably include finding the sweet spot for lance length.

Overhead thrusting from horseback just no.... no no no not at all you just woulddn't do it.

Commonly by who? Over hand strikes make especially little sense on horseback attacking foot troops. Most historians I have read consider it an error by the artist or thrown spears. Very few think the norman horsemen stabbed overhand.

I'm actually wondering whose interpretation of the Bayeux tapestry you've read.

As far as the Bayeux Tapestry is concerned, here is a commentary by R. Allen Brown on the issue of overhand strikes I found. From pg 12:

As for the infantile cavalry tactics, one must read above all D. J. A. Ross on these matters. While we have the unimpeachable testimony of Ordericus Vitalis for the throwing of spears from the saddle as a knightly skill to be practiced, it was obviously not very effective in battle and it is accordingly very difficult indeed to find certain instances of it in the Bayeux Tapestry's depiction of Hastings. Those many knights on the Tapestry apparently brandishing their lances above their heads, and whom Mr Glover assumes to be about to throw them, are in fact about to strike over-arm in the manner most likely against infantry, the two methods of using the lance on horseback inherited from antiquity being the overarm and underarm thrust. Already at this date, however, what is to be the classic medieval usage of the couched lance was being developed, whereby with a heavier lance, no longer a spear, locked under the rider's arm, the whole momentum of the horse and armoured horseman is concentrated in the point, to make possible the shock tactic of the charge. This is what Anna Comnena had in mind when she wrote[...]

The assertion that Norman cavalry were little more than javelineers seems to stem from Richard Glover's 'English Warfare in 1066' and is refuted by other historians. There are other sources I've found that say things similar to the passage above from other credible people. I'm no expert myself, I'm just quoting what I found on Google Books.

The passage referenced from D. J. A. Ross is here, but is in written in French, and I can't read it and am unable to find a translation.

 

[Jagati Khan]

I find couching to be the easiest way to ensure a kill when riding through a group of enemies. Just press 'X' and ride through and you're almost guaranteed a kill at very little risk. If you're charging head on, or if you notice a spearman looking at you, just veer off and find another target rather than risk the counterstrike. The Eastern Steppe Lance is my go-to, with 200 reach.

Swinging polearms around like baseball bats on horseback is what requires more suspension of disbelief IMO. And it also makes it too easy to slice and dice your way through dozens of infantry.

But I'm sure we'll see the devs fine tune all the equipment in the game at some point, and this will probably include finding the sweet spot for lance length.


As far as the Bayeux Tapestry is concerned, here is a commentary by R. Allen Brown on the issue of overhand strikes I found. From pg 12:


The assertion that Norman cavalry were little more than javelineers seems to stem from Richard Glover's 'English Warfare in 1066' and is refuted by other historians. There are other sources I've found that say similar things from other credible people. I'm no expert myself, I'm just quoting what I found on Google Books.

The passage referenced from D. J. A. Ross is here, but is in written in French, and I can't read it and am unable to find a translation.

I am not asserting that at all i am saying that was the tactic used at the battle of hastings as talked about in the video i posted ealier in the thread.

 

[Babou]

Not sure if it's been mentioned in the thread so far as I skipped past all the noise about historical accuracy. But when I was first having trouble using couched lance to deliver strikes, someone recommended that I change to first-person view. (Default key is R, I think.) this made it enormously easier to put the lance tip into my target.

there are a variety of good suggestions I've seen people make about changes to lances, but giving us a "stab-cam" view over the shoulder, as seen in a few mods, would go a long way towards making couched lance strikes more user-friendly.

As to whether or not they're actually useful compared to other weapons, I'll leave that debate alone. I personally use it to seek out the enemy's heavy cav after I've given my troops the first set of orders, on the thought that top-tier nobles have the heaviest armor. So the high damage of a good couched lance blow might actually be the difference in 1-hit kills vs a need to reattack, and a quick kill on a leader might sap their morale before my main body even gets engaged. Then again, I don't actually know if the morale system is so sophisticated at the moment.

Whether that fits your playstyle or conception of the game, I'll leave up to you. But if you do want to use couched lances and you're having trouble landing the blow against isolated targets, just try switching to first-person camera as you get lined up.

 

[Jagati Khan]

Not sure if it's been mentioned in the thread so far as I skipped past all the noise about historical accuracy. But when I was first having trouble using couched lance to deliver strikes, someone recommended that I change to first-person view. (Default key is R, I think.) this made it enormously easier to put the lance tip into my target.

there are a variety of good suggestions I've seen people make about changes to lances, but giving us a "stab-cam" view over the shoulder, as seen in a few mods, would go a long way towards making couched lance strikes more user-friendly.

As to whether or not they're actually useful compared to other weapons, I'll leave that debate alone. I personally use it to seek out the enemy's heavy cav after I've given my troops the first set of orders, on the thought that top-tier nobles have the heaviest armor. So the high damage of a good couched lance blow might actually be the difference in 1-hit kills vs a need to reattack, and a quick kill on a leader might sap their morale before my main body even gets engaged. Then again, I don't actually know if the morale system is so sophisticated at the moment.

Whether that fits your playstyle or conception of the game, I'll leave up to you. But if you do want to use couched lances and you're having trouble landing the blow against isolated targets, just try switching to first-person camera as you get lined up.

It isn't about skill using the lance at least not for me they are just too short it is as simple as that far better and more efficient to just use a glaive.

 

[Botlike]

I totally agree polearms and pikes are too short.

Believe it or not , i like couche lance the way it is now. It's a gauranteed kill. Nothing more to add really.
I can't say i miss much , even with the current state which is far from perfect.
They should propably reduce the damage and only make it a sure kill if you have the perks in the future.

I mostly use it vs cavarly , since swings can be blocked and don't always one shot.
With couch you either kill the horse or the rider. <3
Vs multiple enemies , swings is defo the way to go since you don't need to speed up and you get kills fasters.

I believe longer weapons would fix most issues discussed here but there are OP risks to take.
I also believe they will make it happen in the future , to some extent at least , orrrrrrrrrr mods will sort us out : D

 

[Maximum997]

They should propably reduce the damage and only make it a sure kill if you have the perks in the future.

Couch lance that cant oneshot, when simple thrust or 150+ damage 2hander can do it ezpz. Sounds cool.

 

[Jagati Khan]

I totally agree polearms and pikes are too short.

Believe it or not , i like couche lance the way it is now. It's a gauranteed kill. Nothing more to add really.
I can't say i miss much , even with the current state which is far from perfect.
They should propably reduce the damage and only make it a sure kill if you have the perks in the future.

I mostly use it vs cavarly , since swings can be blocked and don't always one shot.
With couch you either kill the horse or the rider. <3
Vs multiple enemies , swings is defo the way to go since you don't need to speed up and you get kills fasters.

I believe longer weapons would fix most issues discussed here but there are OP risks to take.
I also believe they will make it happen in the future , to some extent at least , orrrrrrrrrr mods will sort us out : D

To be honest all they need to do is have the lance held correctly and it is daft that there are two perks that increase the damage at the mo.

 

[Botlike]

Couch lance that cant oneshot, when simple thrust or 150+ damage 2hander can do it ezpz. Sounds cool.

I don't know really. Sometimes it feels way too strong. Like you can 1shot a heavy armour while both you and your victim run towards the same direction.. Perhaps those situations should be more forgiving , but that's just me.

 

[Bannerman Man]

Personally, I've noticed that a couched lance is nearly always a OHK at the speeds necessary to enter a couch, and is easier to use at a full gallop than a regular stab, whereas stabs can take multiple hits to kill a target if you aren't at a proper speed.

Another tip is to aim lower than you think you have to. This gets the tip of the lance near center mass, so even if it wobbles it should still hit.

I am not asserting that at all i am saying that was the tactic used at the battle of hastings as talked about in the video i posted ealier in the thread.

Sure, we're both just quoting what our sources claim, but our sources seem to be slightly in conflict. I have no special knowledge of this subject, so maybe R. Allen Brown isn't credible. I was also responding to what Stratigo said by offering up a concrete example.

 

[Jagati Khan]

Sure, we're both just quoting what our sources claim, but our sources seem to be slightly in conflict. I have no special knowledge of this subject, so maybe R. Allen Brown isn't credible. I was also responding to what Stratigo said by offering up a concrete example.

It makes sense though to 2bh they were attacking a determined and disciplined shield wall on top of a hill.

 

[kykygambler]

What age it is if Vlandia has pavise crossbowmen as a regular unit?

This comment is gold.+1

I like reading history specialist here.. Truth be told, cav charges were done by Alexander the Great.
Also with ****ing long spears.
check out Xyston and companion cavalry and go away with your medieval theories pointing out how cav was used while you are obviously clueless

OP of this thread is right, we have a couching mechanic that is useless and if it is to stay in the game it should change.

 

[professorchaos]

When you can one shot kill a unit with either couch lance or glaive, and glaive can do it three times when couch lance can do one, you just go for glaive, simple choice.

To make couch lance a proper alternative over glaive, either increase the armor strength so that glaive can't one shot kill heavy cavalry and such in low speed (which is logically), or nerf glaive so that it won't be so OP (but it's so satisfying right now).

Or, introduce duel between mounted lords before battle and provide some boost for the winner, where couch lance somehow performs better than glaive. I'm no history expert, is such duel a thing in real warfare or it's only for tournaments?

 

[professorchaos]

When you can one shot kill a unit with either couch lance or glaive, and glaive can do it three times when couch lance can do one, you just go for glaive, simple choice.

To make couch lance a proper alternative over glaive, either increase the armor strength so that glaive can't one shot kill heavy cavalry and such in low speed (which is logically), or nerf glaive so that it won't be so OP (but it's so satisfying right now).

Or, introduce duel between mounted lords before battle and provide some boost for the winner, where couch lance somehow performs better than glaive. I'm no history expert, is such duel a thing in real warfare or it's only for tournaments?

Sidenote, I like using couch lance in tournaments. But glaives are just better atm in field battle.

 

[Askorti]

This comment is gold.+1

I like reading history specialist here.. Truth be told, cav charges were done by Alexander the Great.
Also with ****ing long spears.
check out Xyston and companion cavalry and go away with your medieval theories pointing out how cav was used while you are obviously clueless

OP of this thread is right, we have a couching mechanic that is useless and if it is to stay in the game it should change.

Correct me if I have it wrong, but didn't Alexander's hetairoi only charge the enemies into their rears and flanks after they were tied down by his phalanx, to get the hammer and anvil effect? That's a completely different kettle of fish to frontal charges we know from the high medieval period.

 

[Maximum997]

That's a completely different kettle of fish to frontal charges we know from the high medieval period.

I dont think that they was charging in front. Spears\polearms was weapons for 95% of infantry.

 

[Pejot]

Correct me if I have it wrong, but didn't Alexander's hetairoi only charge the enemies into their rears and flanks after they were tied down by his phalanx, to get the hammer and anvil effect? That's a completely different kettle of fish to frontal charges we know from the high medieval period.

I think they could charge frontally when facing weak enemy. Exploiting the psychological aspect of frontal charge same as it was used in high medieval period.
The problem here is what age of real history is the game based on. If we look at pavise shields it could be from around 12th century (correct me if i'm wrong) however we also have legionaries and Legion system was replaced by Theme system around 7th century.
As we cannot pinpoint single century the game takes from we can assume it is mixed and thus cavalry can remind more of the early medieval cavalry which wasn't as good as in high medieval period or we can assume it is based on high medieval period and is not good enough for that.
I think that comparing the game to real history is not good comparison because of the mix we have here.

 

[Askorti]

I think they could charge frontally when facing weak enemy. Exploiting the psychological aspect of frontal charge same as it was used in high medieval period.
The problem here is what age of real history is the game based on. If we look at pavise shields it could be from around 12th century (correct me if i'm wrong) however we also have legionaries and Legion system was replaced by Theme system around 7th century.
As we cannot pinpoint single century the game takes from we can assume it is mixed and thus cavalry can remind more of the early medieval cavalry which wasn't as good as in high medieval period or we can assume it is based on high medieval period and is not good enough for that.
I think that comparing the game to real history is not good comparison because of the mix we have here.

I think the best approach is not to think which exact century TW tries to emulate, but what kind of gameplay they want to accomplish. Do they want you to just stack Vlandian Knights/Imperial Cataphracts like you did back in Warband, or do they want you to use more infantry and archers? I think it's the latter, which is why it's fine for the cavalry to not be as effective as it was in Warband.. Especially since it's still plenty effective as-is, and still pretty much dominates the infantry, just not as much as it did back in WB.

 

[Pejot]

I think the best approach is not to think which exact century TW tries to emulate, but what kind of gameplay they want to accomplish. Do they want you to just stack Vlandian Knights/Imperial Cataphracts like you did back in Warband, or do they want you to use more infantry and archers? I think it's the latter, which is why it's fine for the cavalry to not be as effective as it was in Warband.. Especially since it's still plenty effective as-is, and still pretty much dominates the infantry, just not as much as it did back in WB.

I completely agree. I don't have any problems with cav except stupid AI. I can easly find effective way to use them as they are now and they are OP when used correctly. Only AI can't. Unfortunately cause of AI is not good enough i have to always lead my cav personally otherwise they start to do stupid and suicidal thing and if they want to let player focus more on fighting using inf and ranged it's not the best approach since i need to focus on cav.