Khergit Testing! - Update

[RoBo_CoP]

and if we add them to the random faction selector for tournaments and they come up on nord town, port assault, village, when their infantry isn't worth a damn, then they'll lose every time

That's why there needs to be more play testing.

I've seen them play on closed maps and the main way for Khergits to win is to have their archers get the quick map control via horse. Even on Nord town the only way to beat them is to camp spawn because their horse archers can be all over the place instantly. That's one reason they don't need a skill boost, they already have something to off-set it. The only problem on a closed map is Khergit infantry alone can't push ranged units, they only get shot where their shield isn't blocking.

I will admit Village would be a pain if Khergit was outside, but then again it is for any faction outside. Spreading across roof tops isn't something you can beat without waiting for flags to spawn. Which is a problem because if both teams diverge on it, Khergit infantry wouldn't even be able to engage, they would get shot in the feet first.

Port Assault would be the same as Nord Town. Khergits could maintain map control with archers while the other team would be forced to stay in a certain spot. Then it gets back to flag spawns etc etc.

The stats don't really matter as much as you think. We pretty often use vaegir cav for inf, their stats being worse than khergit lancers, and you can go toe to toe with any normal inf. Other factions' infantry aren't backed up by the most mobile archers, they shouldn't have all the same options. An option they SHOULD have is actually being able to get in without getting foot shot to death and with more than one hit's worth of shield health left when they get there. If they have that they can compete with any other faction's infantry. I'm mediocrity personified at shield fighting but I'd be happy to prove it, or just as happy to blame it on stats if I got merked.

This for the most part. The player has a lot to do with how effective any unit is.

 

[RalliX]

Let's see...
Khergit Lancer: 3 Ironflesh, 3 Power Strike, 3 Power Throw, 4 Shield, 5 Athletics, 6 Riding.
115 in all proficiencies.

Let's compare that with other factions' infantry.

Powerstrike: +8% damage with melee weapons per skill point.
Swadians, and Rhodoks both have 4 power-strike. Nords have 5.
The Sarranids and Vaegirs match the Khergits with 3 PS.

Total damage bonus with melee:
Khergits, Sarranids, Vaegirs: +24%
Swadians, Rhodoks: +32%
Nords: +40%

Ironflesh: Adds +2 HP per skill point. Base HP is 35. Strength adds 1 HP per point. All troops have 14 STR except for Nord Archers.
All of the factions' infantry have 4 Ironflesh, except for the Swadians, who have 5.

Khergit Lancer: 55 HP
Swadian Infantry: 59 HP
All Other Infantry: 57 HP

Athletics: Increases movement speed on foot. By how much, I don't know. Helps significantly with bearing heavier armour.
Every faction's infantry have 6 athletics. The Khergit Lancer has 5, but that's not a big negative, considering they're only matched in riding ability by Nord Scouts.

Shield: Decreases damage shields take by 8% per skill point. Increases coverage and speed of shields.
Vaegirs, Sarranids: 2
Nords: 3
Swadians, Khergits: 4
Rhodoks: 5
The Khergits wouldn't have any problem at all against ranged enemies if they had bigger shields. It would be unwise to give them shields with better coverage, unless their shield skill was nerfed.

Throwing: Increases damage done by throwing weapons by 10% per skill point.
Sarranids, Khergits, Vaegirs: 3
Rhodoks: 1
Swadians: 2
Nords: 4

Proficiencies are all somewhat unimportant as it is for infantry.

Every faction's infantry have 100-140 in all melee proficiencies, as well as throwing.
If you've played singleplayer, you'd know that this is relatively small.
100 proficiency is the minimum of what you'd expect from a veteran soldier, and 140 is what you'd expect of an elite soldier.(in native)
The difference that the variety makes however, from a gameplay standing, is rather insignificant.

 

[Lord Rich]

Based on feedback I'm thinking:

Give the Lancers some more shield options (perhaps from the Nord or Vaegir options), remove shields and Lamellar Armor for HAs and give HAs 4 Power Draw and 145 Archery Proficiency.

I think it's important not to go overboard in boosting their stats since you have to factor in the lack of experience we have playing them.

It would be interesting to have an option like the board shields where the khergits wouldn't be able to use them on horseback. That would make a khergit player who wants to fight dismounted at least have a bit more of a disadvantage when mounted so you can't have the best of both worlds. I would keep the regular shields as well of course.

Would removing shields from horse archers really affect competitive play much though? We would just do shield swaps anyway. I think that would be more likely to just reduce the ability of horse archers to stay alive in public play.

Removing the better armours might be a bit much, maybe you could just increase their cost to make them less accessible. I think that's the more OP part of most of the khergit armour. For the amount of armour you get it weighs and costs practically nothing.

 

[RalliX]

Removing the better armours might be a bit much, maybe you could just increase their cost to make them less accessible. I think that's the more OP part of most of the khergit armour. For the amount of armour you get it weighs and costs practically nothing.

This is only the case with the default armour. Their other armour is about equal to other factions.

 

[Asheila]

Removing the better armours might be a bit much, maybe you could just increase their cost to make them less accessible. I think that's the more OP part of most of the khergit armour. For the amount of armour you get it weighs and costs practically nothing.

This is only the case with the default armour. Their other armour is about equal to other factions.

Its also part of what makes them unique, as they fit an overall unique role. It should probably remain the same.

 

[lord1dag]

You nerfed the archers on foot too much and now Kergs attacking a castle are just slaughtered by Vaegir and Sarranid defending archers.  They literally can't aim and pull back their own bow, the KERGHIT bow!  For balance either increase their archery accuracy when on foot or else add in the basic crossbow which wouldn't help them on horseback but would given them a chance against a Vaegir castle.

 

[Vendigr]

You nerfed the archers on foot too much and now Kergs attacking a castle are just slaughtered by Vaegir and Sarranid defending archers.  They literally can't aim and pull back their own bow, the KERGHIT bow!  For balance either increase their archery accuracy when on foot or else add in the basic crossbow which wouldn't help them on horseback but would given them a chance against a Vaegir castle.

All other problems aside, this is the only one that's really game-breaking IMO. Taleworlds decided all MP foot archers will be pin-point accurate, which is fine... but you can't just decide to take that out for khergits. It gives them a pronounced disadvantage against other factions' archers, and they are already disadvantaged in most other areas.  My favorite part is...

Version 1.150 Changelog:
- In multiplayer, Khergit troop stats have been rebalanced to make them more viable.

Version 1.151 Changelog:
....
    Khergit troop stats have been rebalanced to make them more viable.

 

[Corsair831]

you're wrong, about the lance thing, and you're wrong about the infantry only needing better shields. They have lower WPF's and power strike, as well as lower athletics than the other factions. Give a khergit infantry a nord heavy round shield and he's still not going to be as effective as another infantryman

The stats don't really matter as much as you think. We pretty often use vaegir cav for inf, their stats being worse than khergit lancers, and you can go toe to toe with any normal inf. Other factions' infantry aren't backed up by the most mobile archers, they shouldn't have all the same options. An option they SHOULD have is actually being able to get in without getting foot shot to death and with more than one hit's worth of shield health left when they get there. If they have that they can compete with any other faction's infantry. I'm mediocrity personified at shield fighting but I'd be happy to prove it, or just as happy to blame it on stats if I got merked.

they have a small amount less stats, but wheras for example the sarranids and the vaegirs have low power strike, but they have the good equipment to back it up, the khergits are stuck with some pretty basic sabers and hand axes. They won't be at a HUGE disadvantage every time, but they'll still have a significant disadvantage.

but as people are saying, we aren't 100% how HA will play out to balance out the infantry. IMO just playtest them to ****, and see how they do. If they need a spear/shield, then they need a spear/sheild

edit: is it not possible at all just to give the khergits a dedicated infantry class rather than them having a cav as their inf ?

 

[BoomstickS3000]

edit: is it not possible at all just to give the khergits a dedicated infantry class rather than them having a cav as their inf ?

Maybe some light inf class? No heave equipment but have javs and some proper shields. Would make the cav still double up as cav and heavy inf.

Spoiler

Light inf would not have the best sabers, and their best armour shouldnt be too good etc.

 

[RoBo_CoP]

they have a small amount less stats, but wheras for example the sarranids and the vaegirs have low power strike, but they have the good equipment to back it up, the khergits are stuck with some pretty basic sabers and hand axes. They won't be at a HUGE disadvantage every time, but they'll still have a significant disadvantage.

Absolutely false.

The free armour for the Khergits provides 24 body armour. You have to spend quite a bit of money as Vaeg/Nid to beat that. The Khergits also start off with a saber that does 29c equal to that of the Swadian Arming sword which costs 410, very pricey. The Heavy Saber also does 33c, which is more than the Elite Scimitar of the Vaegirs. They start with the Lance, which is pretty much a free pike(or a sheild n spear, with a very long spear). Their starting armour and weapons is greater than any other factions, which would have to spend quite a bit of gold to exceed them. The only thing beat by them is the axes, but the very fact they have access to them and they're cheap is very good. The Rhodoks, Swadians, and Vaegirs don't even have weapons that have a bonus against sheilds. Well the Vaegirs do but that would be the Bardiche, which is a 2handed weapon.

 

[MaHuD]

What good is all that equipment when sarranids arch3rs can just outrun you by far?

 

[Golradir]

What good is all that equipment when sarranids arch3rs can just outrun you by far?

I see wut you did there.

 

[Mr.X]

What good is all that equipment when sarranids arch3rs can just outrun you by far?

Horses?

 

[ocelot2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppStJVghakQ

this here is kergit on kergit.
hope you enjoy!!

 

[RoBo_CoP]

What good is all that equipment when sarranids arch3rs can just outrun you by far?

Horses?

What he meant to say was "What good is all that equipment if other arch3rs just shoot below your shield and can outrun any ground troops."

 

[AWdeV]

Woah geez. I just now see this thread and that's a pity because I really like Khergits. (Even though I haven't played the game, let alone Khergits for quite a while).

I love Rallix's fact-based posts.

Anyway, making horse archers slightly less mobile and hard-hitting could probably help a lot to balance it. I've also seen that the nerf to their proficiency is a bit big and I can imagine that being annoying.

I've personally had some fairly insignificant thoughts on how to make them more viable. I, like others in this thread, think giving them a dedicated if low quality melee infantry could help. Clad in furs, leathers and minor bits of lamellar and mail they could wield a variety of weapons (swords, hatchets, spears and especially hafted blades) with large but light and simple shields to cover them against archers. I'm envisioning a flexible, fairly agile infantry with limited ranged (stones, darts, javelin) capabilities who can help harass and distract foes in towns and such but who would need to work together and mob to dislodge the serious melee juggernauts.

I'd actually say to reduce athletics for lancers and let them become heavy (and slow) infantry as well as super-heavy cavalry who need to be screened by the larger shields of the light infantry for assaults.

 

[MYTH_MalagaN]

nice

 

[Knight of the Rose]

If you want to have fun as Khergits come to GK siege.  We returned their stats to 1143 levels,  and also added some decent gear so they are viable in siege.  They actually won a few siege matches last night.

 

[arsenic_vengeur]

edit: is it not possible at all just to give the khergits a dedicated infantry class rather than them having a cav as their inf ?

I necroback this. Otherwise you'd give epic shield to cavalry, archers couldnt do the usual trick of headshooting or footshooting the cavalry close to them and the kerghit lancer would be too OP, while it is supposed to be a HA faction overall.

I'd also only diminish the horse archery skill and a bit of horseriding for horse archers and this would be fine. Also maybe making them spawn without shield. Indeed it is important to have kerghits able to spawn decent foot archers in a match within Sandiboush or Nord Town, so they also need archery skill around average or just below.

 

[captain lust]

Hey all. Just to give an update, this is our current rebalanced version of khergits (along with some other changes):

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/49546231/Native.zip

This isn't final and we're planning on releasing a full beta patch soon for testing but we'd like to hear your thoughts on the changes and ideally, see some testing results with the updated stats and gear.

Spoiler: changelog

changelog

VERSION 1

module_troops.py
changed khergit_veteran_horse_archer_multiplayer knows_power_draw_3 knows_power_draw_4
changed khergit_veteran_horse_archer_multiplayer wpe(70,130,60,100) wpe(70,145,60,100)
changed khergit_lancer_multiplayer knows_athletics_5 knows_athletics_4
added sarranid_veteran_footman knows_power_strike_2
added sarranid_infantry knows_power_strike_3
changed sarranid_guard knows_power_strike_3 knows_power_strike_4
added
  ["khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer","Khergit Dismounted Lancer","Khergit Dismounted Lancers",tf_guarantee_all,0,0,fac_kingdom_3,
  [itm_sword_khergit_1,itm_spear,itm_tab_shield_small_round_a,
    itm_steppe_armor,itm_hide_boots,itm_leather_gloves],
  def_attrib_multiplayer|level(19),wp(110),knows_ironflesh_3|knows_power_throw_3|knows_shield_4|knows_power_strike_3|knows_athletics_6,khergit_face_middle_1, khergit_face_older_2],
 
module_items.py
changed leather_steppe_cap_b head_armor(14) head_armor(16)
changed steppe_cap head_armor(16) head_armor(14)
added long_bardiche itp_unbalanced
added great_long_bardiche itp_unbalanced

module_scripts.py
removed
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_tab_shield_small_round_a", "trp_khergit_veteran_horse_archer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_tab_shield_small_round_b", "trp_khergit_veteran_horse_archer_multiplayer"),
  (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_khergit_elite_armor", "trp_khergit_lancer_multiplayer"),  
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_khergit_guard_helmet", "trp_khergit_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_mace_1", "trp_khergit_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_mace_2", "trp_khergit_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_mace_3", "trp_khergit_lancer_multiplayer"),

added
      #3a-Khergit Dismounted Lancer
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_javelin", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_jarid", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_sword_khergit_1", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_sword_khergit_2", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_sword_khergit_3", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_sword_khergit_4", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_tab_shield_small_round_a", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_tab_shield_small_round_b", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_tab_shield_small_round_c", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_tab_shield_round_c", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_tab_shield_round_d", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_spear", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_hafted_blade_a", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_hafted_blade_b", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_mace_1", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_mace_2", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_mace_3", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
  (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_nomad_cap_b", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_leather_steppe_cap_b", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_steppe_cap", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_khergit_war_helmet", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_khergit_guard_helmet", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_steppe_armor", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_tribal_warrior_outfit", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_lamellar_armor", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
  (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_khergit_elite_armor", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),  
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_hide_boots", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_nomad_boots", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
  (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_khergit_leather_boots", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_splinted_leather_greaves", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_splinted_greaves", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_leather_gloves", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_mail_mittens", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
      (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_scale_gauntlets", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
  (call_script, "script_multiplayer_set_item_available_for_troop", "itm_lamellar_gauntlets", "trp_khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer"),
 
VERSION 2

module_troops.py

changed khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer_ai knows_ironflesh_5 knows_ironflesh_1
changed khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer_ai knows_power_strike_5 knows_power_strike_1
changed khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer_ai wp(150) wp(100)
changed khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer_ai level(23) level(21)
added khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer_ai itm_tribal_warrior_outfit
removed khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer_ai itm_lamellar_armor
removed khergit_dismounted_lancer_multiplayer_ai itm_khergit_guard_helmet
changed khergit_lancer_multiplayer_ai knows_power_strike_5 knows_power_strike_2
changed khergit_lancer_multiplayer_ai wp(130) wp(100)
changed khergit_lancer_multiplayer_ai knows_ironflesh_1 knows_ironflesh_1
changed khergit_veteran_horse_archer_multiplayer_ai wp_archery(150) wp_archery(90)