1.0 Intro
First off I want to clarify that this is not a whine about the current system because I suck at it or anything, I am no where near the best dueler out there but I am a relatively proficient player, I also generally like the way the combat feels. However I want to look critically at what the current melee combat mechanics are and what problems they have in terms of gameplay, then suggest alternate mechanics which might be deeper and to a degree look less ridiculous.
I would also add that I am open to discussion on the current mechanics and their pros/cons, if you think I am wrong anywhere then please bring it up. Also if you have any modifications/adjustments or alternate suggestions then post them. I would prefer for this to be a meta-topic on improving the melee combat mechanics rather than simply one dedicated to my own suggestion. Finally I have no doubts that anything suggested here by me or anyone else will not be implemented in warband, irrelevant of its popularity or sense, this is stuff for M&B2 assuming that is in the works.
2.0 The Current Mechanics
I am going to focus primarily on fighting without shields for the moment, I am sure that there is general agreement on the lackluster combat that comes from using shields.
2.1 Basics
So the basic mechanics of the game consist of being able to attack in four directions and defending in four directions. Heavy weapons can cause a small amount of stun on lighter ones and some weapons are able to crush through blocks but otherwise a pair of good blockers would be able to attack each other (just with the basic strikes) pretty much continuously without much chance of inflicting any damage. This has good points and bad points, the good is that its a simple system to understand so has an easy learning curve for new players, the bad is that if someone was new and came up against a good blocker they have absolutely no way of causing any damage in a one on one. I really dislike the way that a basic attack is made completely worthless in that regard.
2.2 Feinting
All of the more advanced attacks attempt to bypass a players block by misleading them, the easiest of these is the feint wherein a player will go through a portion of the attack before cancelling with the block then attacking in a different direction. While good blockers will see through even long chains of feints the speed of them in general is a bit ridiculous.
2.3 Footwork
The next easiest way to bypass a block is to use footwork, get your opponent to make his attack while you are out of range then leap in before he has recovered so that he cannot block your own attack. Once again a good duelist will simply not give the opening, its entirely dependant on your opponent making a mistake.
2.4 Misdirection
Another method (that seems more common now than it used to be) is misdirection. here players will use high amounts of spin to make their attacks from bizzare angles (since when can you thrust outwards then turn the point as you are thrusting 180 degrees!?) to disorient an opponent. They may also close extremely close and move round you in odd ways to try and make you lose line of sight with their weapon as well. This is often combined with essentially spam of feinting for maximum effect.
2.5 Chambering
The final alternative to the above is chamber blocking, where you make an attack a little after your opponents but have your weapon knock his out of the way en route. While this can be reliably used against bots in singleplayer (and used by bots
) it is extremely difficult to use this deliberately online. This is because you need to be able to know how long a weapon will take to swing and hit you so you can time your own swing to meet it, the unpredictable rotation of most players characters when in combat makes this pretty much impossible, although you can use it against some players if they dont spin much during an attack.
2.6 Movement
The dancing that occurs during a fight is also particularly bad in my opinion, there is no momentum in the movement which can make it difficult to predict how an opponent will move as well as allow people to respond inhumanely fast. This can also be especially annoying for ranged players as it can be near impossible to hit players that can instantly change direction.
2.7 Conclusions
So this is my general conclusion about the mechanics, beyond the most basic abilities in attack and defence pretty much the entirety of the gameplay is based on either waiting for your opponent to make a mistake or forcing the mistake. Pretty much all attacks are low risk/low reward, additionally all the fights are extremely twitch based and instantaneous, there is little consideration for more general strategy beyond countering your opponents next blow and making your own attack. Players do not get tired and do not suffer loss of movement after taking injury. Weapons do not get damaged or stuck and there is no way to disarm an opponent. As such it is not surprising that many duel servers are entirely dominated by players wielding 2H weapons. These offer more damage for each single hit while also having better range and often speed (since the effects of spinning are increased with longer weapons).
3.0 Suggested Alterations
3.1 Stamina
The most important addition I think should be endurance/stamina. I know this has already been done in Age of Chivalry but I feel its a great system (although their usage was a bit wierd at times). Making attacks costs stamina, depending on your relative velocity to the opponent and angular momentum it will cost you more or less stamina to block (perfect blocks may cost no stamina at all). Doing nothing will replenish stamina automatically while moving around will either cause no drop or some drop with double tap actions (explained in a second). What this all means is that its not just about being able to spam attacks at your opponent until you break through. You can attack with the intent of tiring your opponent out, it effectively adds an end game to a duel scenario. For shorter sharper fights it is less likely to have an effect.
When stamina drops very low you will still be able to make attacks or defend yourself but whether this will be succesful or not will be governed by how you make your attacks and how much stamina your opponent has left.
3.2 Momentum/Dodges
Momentum should also definately be added, if you rush towards your opponent to close you shouldnt be able to instantaneously back out of it. There are good gameplay reasons for this aside from the obvious realism aspects. I think that good gameplay comes from risk and reward, for increasing your momentum (and therefore attack strength) as well as getting in range of your opponent you should have the risk that you cannot get out of range so easily. Having said that there is a need to be able to make faster dodges.
So this is how I think things should be:
Holding any of the four movement directions will gradually (might take 1 - 2 secs to get up to full speed) increase speed in said direction until it gets to the maximum speed limit for that direction. Moving backwards will be slowest (significantly slower than now) with moving sideways being somewhere in the middle. On top of this there will also be double key tap actions. For forwards this will go into charge mode which increases your forward speed to a maximum above your regular forwards movement speed. This will be maintained until you release the forwards key. It will also constantly drain stamina until you don't have enough left at which point you will drop back to normal forwards speed. Doing the forwards double tap from a stationary position should result in a sudden lurch forwards.
Double tapping left, right or back will result in a dodge in the equivalent direction, this will be followed by a short period of limited movement as your character regains balance. This will cost a fixed amount of stamina, if you don't have enough stamina to complete the action, your stamina will drop to zero for a short time and you will be forced to be stationary as you will be too exhausted to continue.
While you will still be able to control the direction of the avatar directly from the camera/mouse, sudden direction changes will have the possibility of stumbling. You wouldn't be able to charge at full speed towards an opponent then instantly turn round once you pass them without first slowing down or turning more gradually.
3.3 Attack Direction
The camera direction should also no longer be linked to the avatars direction when making an attack. This will fix the issues with chambering as it will once more make it predictable online. The camera will lock to the player when they are blocking or preparing an attack however. It would only be after you release the attack that camera rotation would no longer have an effect on the avatar. This would also fix the ridiculous thrusting actions we see now with people making huge direction changes to thrusting attacks.
This would on its own throw up some problems, how would you ever hit an opponent with a thrust or overhead attack so why would you use them. Well the thrust and overhead would each be modified.
3.4 Overhead Slash
The overhead attack would be the most efficient in terms of damage for stamina, it would cost the least stamina of the four attacks and would give more attacking damage than a side slash would. You could make a fair few more of these than side slashes and get more damage as a result. The risk of that bonus would be temporarily leaving yourself open to attack from an opponent who dodges. I would point out as well that hitting a moving opponent without turning yourself would not be as hard as it is now because of the momentum (although it will likely be no where near as easy as hitting someone with an overhead right now).
3.5 Thrusting
The thrust would have the most drastic change, this would become unblockable. You would not be able to stand there and use a regular block against any thrusting attack. That would sound overpowered until you remember that you can dodge in three different directions to avoid it, you can close to below its effective range (like how it works now) and you would be able to chamber it. Given that the thrust aims along a line as well simply hitting an opponent even with the momentum will likely take a bit of skill. It would effectively work like the kick does. This would be a great boon for the polearms as well since right now players can simply hold down the down block to become immune to all attacks, just look at all the silliness of the bayonet fighting on M&M. This is an important alteration in my opinion, as it could help break a deadlock between combatants.
The risk of missing is also dangerous, its true that you could get a clean unstoppable hit in, but if you miss your opponent has the same opportunity. This is less of a problem for a player using a pike, but then the pike would have only the one predictable attack (overhead with a pike should be removed, its so silly). Also while you wouldn't be in danger of getting hit after missing, the opponent could still dodge inside your range before you can make your next attack.
3.6 Ducking
Given that the new thrusts would make downwards blocking obsolete I would also suggest that down blocking would result in your avatar ducking which could be an alternative way to avoid horizontal slashes aimed high. This is once again a risk/reward technique, its a risky move since the attack might come too low and still hit you, but you get to stay in range of your opponent while he is vulnerable. Getting the timing right would no doubt be tricky as well but it would be possible for the same reasons chambers would now be possible.
3.7 Costs for feinting
I am honestly not sure about the feinting mechanic, on the one hand you definately need to be able to change attack direction, but I feel the current method really doesn't do any justice to the game. Probably the best option here would be to have a stamina cost for changing from one attack direction to a block or another attack direction directly. Players could then do the feinting for short periods at a higher cost of stamina or slow their actions down to reserve stamina, it would be up to them to determine how wasteful they are.
3.8 Tackling
The final thing I would like to add is the idea of tackling, if an enemy charges into you, you will get knocked over. This will not be blockable, only avoidable. For the charging player a fully successful charge (charging into a static opponent) will result in your opponent being knocked to the ground and potentially an easy kill for you. Partial success (charging into each other, hitting at different velocities) may result in both players being knocked to the ground. The main risk for this technique would be the possibility of it being dodged then being hit or even worse simply having your opponent aim a stab at you as you come charging in. It's a high risk tactic but one with a high payout as well.
3.9 Conclusions
I feel the above changes would dramatically improve the options a player has in a fight and therefore increase the depth of the game. You can now plan further ahead than the next blow and have the option of a more thought out strategy. There are options for high risk/high reward tactics that may let players break deadlocks and the addition of stamina not only allows for the restraint of spam based attacks (not removal though, it only limits their consecutive use) but also gives an endgame to fights where one players better management of stamina will allow him to overcome his enemy.
The changes will also hopefully limit or remove the more ridiculous and inhuman techniques and attacks that currently are in use. I prefer to argue these points from a gameplay point of view rather than realism however, since a realistic game is not necessarily fun. For this reason I don't think its a good idea to have injuries affect a players abilities or have weapons break etc...
Hopefully you got this far without getting bored, if you did make it then you get a cookie.
First off I want to clarify that this is not a whine about the current system because I suck at it or anything, I am no where near the best dueler out there but I am a relatively proficient player, I also generally like the way the combat feels. However I want to look critically at what the current melee combat mechanics are and what problems they have in terms of gameplay, then suggest alternate mechanics which might be deeper and to a degree look less ridiculous.
I would also add that I am open to discussion on the current mechanics and their pros/cons, if you think I am wrong anywhere then please bring it up. Also if you have any modifications/adjustments or alternate suggestions then post them. I would prefer for this to be a meta-topic on improving the melee combat mechanics rather than simply one dedicated to my own suggestion. Finally I have no doubts that anything suggested here by me or anyone else will not be implemented in warband, irrelevant of its popularity or sense, this is stuff for M&B2 assuming that is in the works.
2.0 The Current Mechanics
I am going to focus primarily on fighting without shields for the moment, I am sure that there is general agreement on the lackluster combat that comes from using shields.
2.1 Basics
So the basic mechanics of the game consist of being able to attack in four directions and defending in four directions. Heavy weapons can cause a small amount of stun on lighter ones and some weapons are able to crush through blocks but otherwise a pair of good blockers would be able to attack each other (just with the basic strikes) pretty much continuously without much chance of inflicting any damage. This has good points and bad points, the good is that its a simple system to understand so has an easy learning curve for new players, the bad is that if someone was new and came up against a good blocker they have absolutely no way of causing any damage in a one on one. I really dislike the way that a basic attack is made completely worthless in that regard.
2.2 Feinting
All of the more advanced attacks attempt to bypass a players block by misleading them, the easiest of these is the feint wherein a player will go through a portion of the attack before cancelling with the block then attacking in a different direction. While good blockers will see through even long chains of feints the speed of them in general is a bit ridiculous.
2.3 Footwork
The next easiest way to bypass a block is to use footwork, get your opponent to make his attack while you are out of range then leap in before he has recovered so that he cannot block your own attack. Once again a good duelist will simply not give the opening, its entirely dependant on your opponent making a mistake.
2.4 Misdirection
Another method (that seems more common now than it used to be) is misdirection. here players will use high amounts of spin to make their attacks from bizzare angles (since when can you thrust outwards then turn the point as you are thrusting 180 degrees!?) to disorient an opponent. They may also close extremely close and move round you in odd ways to try and make you lose line of sight with their weapon as well. This is often combined with essentially spam of feinting for maximum effect.
2.5 Chambering
The final alternative to the above is chamber blocking, where you make an attack a little after your opponents but have your weapon knock his out of the way en route. While this can be reliably used against bots in singleplayer (and used by bots
) it is extremely difficult to use this deliberately online. This is because you need to be able to know how long a weapon will take to swing and hit you so you can time your own swing to meet it, the unpredictable rotation of most players characters when in combat makes this pretty much impossible, although you can use it against some players if they dont spin much during an attack. 2.6 Movement
The dancing that occurs during a fight is also particularly bad in my opinion, there is no momentum in the movement which can make it difficult to predict how an opponent will move as well as allow people to respond inhumanely fast. This can also be especially annoying for ranged players as it can be near impossible to hit players that can instantly change direction.
2.7 Conclusions
So this is my general conclusion about the mechanics, beyond the most basic abilities in attack and defence pretty much the entirety of the gameplay is based on either waiting for your opponent to make a mistake or forcing the mistake. Pretty much all attacks are low risk/low reward, additionally all the fights are extremely twitch based and instantaneous, there is little consideration for more general strategy beyond countering your opponents next blow and making your own attack. Players do not get tired and do not suffer loss of movement after taking injury. Weapons do not get damaged or stuck and there is no way to disarm an opponent. As such it is not surprising that many duel servers are entirely dominated by players wielding 2H weapons. These offer more damage for each single hit while also having better range and often speed (since the effects of spinning are increased with longer weapons).
3.0 Suggested Alterations
3.1 Stamina
The most important addition I think should be endurance/stamina. I know this has already been done in Age of Chivalry but I feel its a great system (although their usage was a bit wierd at times). Making attacks costs stamina, depending on your relative velocity to the opponent and angular momentum it will cost you more or less stamina to block (perfect blocks may cost no stamina at all). Doing nothing will replenish stamina automatically while moving around will either cause no drop or some drop with double tap actions (explained in a second). What this all means is that its not just about being able to spam attacks at your opponent until you break through. You can attack with the intent of tiring your opponent out, it effectively adds an end game to a duel scenario. For shorter sharper fights it is less likely to have an effect.
When stamina drops very low you will still be able to make attacks or defend yourself but whether this will be succesful or not will be governed by how you make your attacks and how much stamina your opponent has left.
3.2 Momentum/Dodges
Momentum should also definately be added, if you rush towards your opponent to close you shouldnt be able to instantaneously back out of it. There are good gameplay reasons for this aside from the obvious realism aspects. I think that good gameplay comes from risk and reward, for increasing your momentum (and therefore attack strength) as well as getting in range of your opponent you should have the risk that you cannot get out of range so easily. Having said that there is a need to be able to make faster dodges.
So this is how I think things should be:
Holding any of the four movement directions will gradually (might take 1 - 2 secs to get up to full speed) increase speed in said direction until it gets to the maximum speed limit for that direction. Moving backwards will be slowest (significantly slower than now) with moving sideways being somewhere in the middle. On top of this there will also be double key tap actions. For forwards this will go into charge mode which increases your forward speed to a maximum above your regular forwards movement speed. This will be maintained until you release the forwards key. It will also constantly drain stamina until you don't have enough left at which point you will drop back to normal forwards speed. Doing the forwards double tap from a stationary position should result in a sudden lurch forwards.
Double tapping left, right or back will result in a dodge in the equivalent direction, this will be followed by a short period of limited movement as your character regains balance. This will cost a fixed amount of stamina, if you don't have enough stamina to complete the action, your stamina will drop to zero for a short time and you will be forced to be stationary as you will be too exhausted to continue.
While you will still be able to control the direction of the avatar directly from the camera/mouse, sudden direction changes will have the possibility of stumbling. You wouldn't be able to charge at full speed towards an opponent then instantly turn round once you pass them without first slowing down or turning more gradually.
3.3 Attack Direction
The camera direction should also no longer be linked to the avatars direction when making an attack. This will fix the issues with chambering as it will once more make it predictable online. The camera will lock to the player when they are blocking or preparing an attack however. It would only be after you release the attack that camera rotation would no longer have an effect on the avatar. This would also fix the ridiculous thrusting actions we see now with people making huge direction changes to thrusting attacks.
This would on its own throw up some problems, how would you ever hit an opponent with a thrust or overhead attack so why would you use them. Well the thrust and overhead would each be modified.
3.4 Overhead Slash
The overhead attack would be the most efficient in terms of damage for stamina, it would cost the least stamina of the four attacks and would give more attacking damage than a side slash would. You could make a fair few more of these than side slashes and get more damage as a result. The risk of that bonus would be temporarily leaving yourself open to attack from an opponent who dodges. I would point out as well that hitting a moving opponent without turning yourself would not be as hard as it is now because of the momentum (although it will likely be no where near as easy as hitting someone with an overhead right now).
3.5 Thrusting
The thrust would have the most drastic change, this would become unblockable. You would not be able to stand there and use a regular block against any thrusting attack. That would sound overpowered until you remember that you can dodge in three different directions to avoid it, you can close to below its effective range (like how it works now) and you would be able to chamber it. Given that the thrust aims along a line as well simply hitting an opponent even with the momentum will likely take a bit of skill. It would effectively work like the kick does. This would be a great boon for the polearms as well since right now players can simply hold down the down block to become immune to all attacks, just look at all the silliness of the bayonet fighting on M&M. This is an important alteration in my opinion, as it could help break a deadlock between combatants.
The risk of missing is also dangerous, its true that you could get a clean unstoppable hit in, but if you miss your opponent has the same opportunity. This is less of a problem for a player using a pike, but then the pike would have only the one predictable attack (overhead with a pike should be removed, its so silly). Also while you wouldn't be in danger of getting hit after missing, the opponent could still dodge inside your range before you can make your next attack.
3.6 Ducking
Given that the new thrusts would make downwards blocking obsolete I would also suggest that down blocking would result in your avatar ducking which could be an alternative way to avoid horizontal slashes aimed high. This is once again a risk/reward technique, its a risky move since the attack might come too low and still hit you, but you get to stay in range of your opponent while he is vulnerable. Getting the timing right would no doubt be tricky as well but it would be possible for the same reasons chambers would now be possible.
3.7 Costs for feinting
I am honestly not sure about the feinting mechanic, on the one hand you definately need to be able to change attack direction, but I feel the current method really doesn't do any justice to the game. Probably the best option here would be to have a stamina cost for changing from one attack direction to a block or another attack direction directly. Players could then do the feinting for short periods at a higher cost of stamina or slow their actions down to reserve stamina, it would be up to them to determine how wasteful they are.
3.8 Tackling
The final thing I would like to add is the idea of tackling, if an enemy charges into you, you will get knocked over. This will not be blockable, only avoidable. For the charging player a fully successful charge (charging into a static opponent) will result in your opponent being knocked to the ground and potentially an easy kill for you. Partial success (charging into each other, hitting at different velocities) may result in both players being knocked to the ground. The main risk for this technique would be the possibility of it being dodged then being hit or even worse simply having your opponent aim a stab at you as you come charging in. It's a high risk tactic but one with a high payout as well.
3.9 Conclusions
I feel the above changes would dramatically improve the options a player has in a fight and therefore increase the depth of the game. You can now plan further ahead than the next blow and have the option of a more thought out strategy. There are options for high risk/high reward tactics that may let players break deadlocks and the addition of stamina not only allows for the restraint of spam based attacks (not removal though, it only limits their consecutive use) but also gives an endgame to fights where one players better management of stamina will allow him to overcome his enemy.
The changes will also hopefully limit or remove the more ridiculous and inhuman techniques and attacks that currently are in use. I prefer to argue these points from a gameplay point of view rather than realism however, since a realistic game is not necessarily fun. For this reason I don't think its a good idea to have injuries affect a players abilities or have weapons break etc...
Hopefully you got this far without getting bored, if you did make it then you get a cookie
. 
![[BRE] Hildebrand](/data/avatars/m/33/33243.jpg?1701900377){kind=avatar}