Historical counterpart of the M&B "Guard Helmet"

[SMST]

Hey everyone.

I was wondering lately if the "Guard Helmet" of M&B had any historical counterpart. Since most, if not every, other helmet styles have corresponding styles in history, the Guard Helmet should have too. But since I am no expert of this matter, I wanted to ask the military history buffs of this forum if there is an example of such helmets used in history or at least where these helmets could be based or inspired off.

For those who don't know which helmet I speak of, a picture:

It is used ingame mostly by Swadian high-end troops, such as knights or sergeants.

 

[Merlkir]

Probably a poor reconstruction of a "norman" type of helmet.

 

[hruza]

Spangenhelm

 

[SMST]

Probably a poor reconstruction of a "norman" type of helmet.

I've thought of this, too, but there is already a "Norman Helmet" in M&B. I wasn't sure about the mail, either.

And why do you think it is "poor"?

Spangenhelm

It seems to me as if the two of them could be related. If you take away those earguards from the Spangenhelm (is there an English term?), you have pretty much a norman helmet.

 

[hruza]

That is because "norman helm" on the picture IS spangenhelm. Normans were using same helmets as all others were using. There was no special "norman" helmet.
Name is german, because these helmets were at first discovered in Germany I think, helmet itself is if I remember correct of Eastern European and Central Asian steppe design. It was brought in to Europe by Goths who took it from Allans and other steppe warriors. It became most common helmet of late Roman and early medieval armies.

PICTURES

 

[SMST]

So "Norman helmet" = Spangenhelm? Interesting.

One more question: Would the mail on this helmet be a seperate mail coif or attached to the Spangenhelm? I'm asking because there is a similar M&B helmet who has a leather neckguard instead of a mailled one, and I am pretty sure that the leather is attached to the helm itself. Just wondering if that would be the case with our Guard Helmet, too.

 

[hruza]

So "Norman helmet" = Spangenhelm? Interesting.

No. There was no "Norman helmet". It is just "invention" of somebody. Normans were using same helmets every one else was using.

As for chainmail attached, from MB model it seems it should represent aventail. That is, it is attached to helmet itself.

 

[SMST]

Thanks!

 

[Merlkir]

So "Norman helmet" = Spangenhelm? Interesting.

No. There was no "Norman helmet". It is just "invention" of somebody. Normans were using same helmets every one else was using.

Yes. There are helmets that the normans wore - that's why I call them norman helmets, and they certainly weren't worn by everyone (even though many others did, like the Saxons and so on. Still, not everyone.) .

Many norman helmets can hardly be called spangenhelms, considering the fact they're not composed of two or more pieces, but rather beaten out of a single sheet of metal.

You could call it a conical helmet perhaps, but it's rather vague.

Anyways, a spangenhelm probably originated in Persia and is quite obviously a predecessor of a norman helmet.

 

[hruza]

Yes. There are helmets that the normans wore - that's why I call them norman helmets, and they certainly weren't worn by everyone (even though many others did, like the Saxons and so on.

Then I wonder why you don't call then Saxon helmets ...because that the Saxons wore as you say.

Still, not everyone.) .

You know what? You are correct on this one. Eskimos and Zulus did not use them. But apart of those, everyone else did. It was most common helmet from Persia all the way to Iceland. And everyone was calling them "norman" ...for what ever strange reason. Probably because all knew there are that the normans wore

Many norman helmets can hardly be called spangenhelms, considering the fact they're not composed of two or more pieces, but rather beaten out of a single sheet of metal.

So also all single piece helmets are "norman"? Did ancients actually used anything else than "norman" helmets? If not Normans, humanity would have fought bareheaded!

 

[Merlkir]

Good job at misinterpreting what I said.

If you google "norman helmet", you'll get an easy and quick answer. A norman helmet is a type of helmet seen on the Bayeux tapestry - a conical helmet with a nasal. Which is exactly what the model is.

A spangenhelm is a helmet composed of several pieces and can range from roughly 4th to 9th century AD.

Most spangenhelms don't look like the model, most norman helmets do.
While you call the helmet using a name specifying the construction method, I use the popular name putting it in a specific timeframe.

If you look for spangenhelms, you'll get results centuries apart from the model you're actually looking for. If you search for norman helmets, you'll get helmet models very similar if not exactly the same as the one you're looking for.

I'm right, you're being a pain in the ass.

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

It was probably a modern term from the 18th or 19th centuries, just like "Teutonic Knights."  I am guessing it was just easier to call the helmet style seen on the Bayeux tapestry a "Norman Helmet" instead of the "conical steel helmet with nasal guard." 

 

[Urlik]

definitely easier than saying "conical nasal helm made from a single piece of steel"

also, spangenhelms were on their way out in the 9th century which is when the Norman helmet was starting to make an appearance

 

[hruza]

If you google "norman helmet", you'll get an easy and quick answer. A norman helmet is a type of helmet seen on the Bayeux tapestry - a conical helmet with a nasal. Which is exactly what the model is.

This are helmets on Bayeux tapestry:
http://historyofscience.com/G2I/timeline/images/bayeux_tapestry_odo.png

And this is spangenhelm (modern reconstruction):
http://swordmaster.org/uploads/2009/vikingi/spangenhelm.jpg

I'm right, you're being a pain in the ass.

Relax, I am have no intention of hurting your ass

 

[Merlkir]

Yes, but this is also a spangenhelm.

I just explained why "spangenhelm" doesn't really help the good man. Yes, it tells him the helmet is made of pieces, but he can see that with his own eyes I'm sure.

 

[Urlik]

yes, they are both nasal helms, but the Norman helmet is a cone made from a single piece of steel.
spangenhelm is a type of construction method rather than a style of helm and it was on the way out before the Normans crossed the channel to Hastings.

 

[Merlkir]

yes, they are both nasal helms, but the Norman helmet is a cone made from a single piece of steel.
spangenhelm is a type of construction method rather than a style of helm and it was on the way out before the Normans crossed the channel to Hastings.

not necessarily, norman helmets can be spangenhelms too.

Damn, I thought that was clear.

 

[hruza]

yes, they are both nasal helms, but the Norman helmet is a cone made from a single piece of steel.
spangenhelm is a type of construction method rather than a style of helm and it was on the way out before the Normans crossed the channel to Hastings.

Spangenhelms is: conical metal helmet made of several plates put together by vertical bars and riveted. You can than attach things like nasal, aventail or cheek flaps. You have it sum up nicely in wiki link I already posted. I don't know what par of that is obscure and need discussion.

MB helm SMST was asking about have vertical bars and rivets. Its conical, have aventail and nasal. Is there something that do not match?

 

[SMST]

I just explained why "spangenhelm" doesn't really help the good man. Yes, it tells him the helmet is made of pieces, but he can see that with his own eyes I'm sure.

I can, thank you.

So, to settle this debate I sparked here, would it be appropriate to call this helmet a "riveted plate helmet" referring to the method of construction, whose design is probably based off high medieval "norman helmets", which in turn originated (historically) from the early medieval "spangenhelme"?

 

[hruza]

An here you have single piece conical nasal helmet. Including Bayeux Tapestry. Does that resemble MB helmet better?