Guns vs Bows........serious changes need to be made
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Votadini
Recruit
PANTERA. said:King Harkinian said:PANTERA. said:Darmoth said:Archonsod said:Pike and shot ruled the day, not artillery
It's fine. Technically the bow is still a superior weapon than the musket. Where the musket wins is that anyone can learn to use one in an hour, whereas to be an effective archer requires years of training.
And lancers remained a core of an army until WW1 ...
So... why did lancers go out of style around WW1...?
Trench warfare?
Repeater rifles... they were already pretty much useless against infantry firepower in the later part of the 19th century, but machineguns really put an end to them.
The first machine gun was created in 1884.
WW1-1914.
It took them 30 years to figure that out?
Everything I've read about it points to trench warfare being the cause of the cavalry's downfall.
Machine guns were in use during the American War of Independance - as early as that
Puckle guns ftw.Anyway, it took until 1914 for them to become both widespread and fully portable which is the reason for it taking 30 years as you claim.
And while it is true that some cavalry charges took place during WW1 - they were never successful and any "gains" were far, far out-matched by losses. One untrained infantry conscript could down 15-20 well-trained and heavily armoured cavalry by the time they reached him so look at it that way.
On topic: Mounted Archers beat the living crap out of mounted or unmounted musketmen. No contest. So it's pretty much even.
Also I guess that also these days most wars take place in cities and not open fields so either way cavalry are useless.
PANTERA.
Regular
Votadini said:Machine guns were in use during the American War of Independance - as early as that
Anyway, it took until 1914 for them to become both widespread and fully portable which is the reason for it taking 30 years as you claim.
And while it is true that some cavalry charges took place during WW1 - they were never successful and any "gains" were far, far out-matched by losses. One untrained infantry conscript could down 15-20 well-trained and heavily armoured cavalry by the time they reached him so look at it that way.
On topic: Mounted Archers beat the living crap out of mounted or unmounted musketmen. No contest. So it's pretty much even.
Also I guess that also these days most wars take place in cities and not open fields so either way cavalry are useless.
And we're talking about self powered "modern" machine guns, the kind they used in WW1, you know?
Machine guns were widely used in 1904, you ever heard of the Russo-Japanese War?
Cybercossack
Recruit
Archonsod said:Pike and shot ruled the day, not artillery
It's fine. Technically the bow is still a superior weapon than the musket. Where the musket wins is that anyone can learn to use one in an hour, whereas to be an effective archer requires years of training.
And lancers remained a core of an army until WW1 ...
everything he just said
The anti armour comparision could be an issue but in every other respect I'm very happy
Cybercossack
Recruit
Without going widly off topic (which are starting to) the myth that cavalry did nothing in The Great War is just that a myth; in one afternoon an allied cavalry unit captured some 200 machine gun posts, not bad for utterly useless troops aye?
RavenHawk88
Regular
PANTERA. said:King Harkinian said:PANTERA. said:Darmoth said:Archonsod said:Pike and shot ruled the day, not artillery
It's fine. Technically the bow is still a superior weapon than the musket. Where the musket wins is that anyone can learn to use one in an hour, whereas to be an effective archer requires years of training.
And lancers remained a core of an army until WW1 ...
So... why did lancers go out of style around WW1...?
Trench warfare?
Repeater rifles... they were already pretty much useless against infantry firepower in the later part of the 19th century, but machineguns really put an end to them.
The first machine gun was created in 1884.
WW1-1914.
It took them 30 years to figure that out?
Everything I've read about it points to trench warfare being the cause of the cavalry's downfall.
And trench warfare came about because of the machine gun. So ultimately, the machine gun did end the age of cavalry.
PANTERA.
Regular
RavenHawk88 said:
The sole reason for trench warfare was because of machine guns? Not entirely.
It was for multiple reasons not one being more greater than the other.
Some one could argue that artillery is the reason.
I think it's the combination of quite a few things.
I guess it's how you interpret it.
King Harkinian
Squire
Votadini said:Machine guns were in use during the American War of Independance - as early as that
You do know that the Puckle gun was never used in actual conflict, right? (Well, apparently John, duke of Montagu bought some in 1722 for an expedition to colonize St Vincent and St Lucia, but the expedition aborted and they were never used)
Gr0vZ
Sergeant
PANTERA. said:
You guys talk about the Battle of Krojanty?
The Polish cavalrymen were equipped anti-tank weapons, like the Bofor 37mm. Those bastards could penetrate tank armour of 26 mm, and most importantly, they were portable (dragged by horses). Panzer I and Panzer II were vulnerable to such weaponry. They never charged those tanks with lances, or sabres. No matter how poetically heroic or battle-frenzy the Poles were, it's quite reasonable to assume that they used the larger guns instead of sabres? Sabres? Why, to scratch off the paint of the tanks to piss off the Germans? Well, I guess those damn Poles have the balls to just do it for the lulz.
Yet, back in the 17th century, as there were reiters and dragoos that carried guns, the bow was still extensively used by Tartar units (speaking of the Deluge conflict). Which was more lethal?
TuranianGhazi
Sergeant
Surprisingly, the bow, and more effectively the crossbow is making a comeback as a professional's stealth weapon in favor of even silencers in modern settings.
Still, it's always easier to press the trigger ... basically the bow became obsolete when guns were developed with greater loadout (more bullets in one stock), longer range, greater stopping power, faster reload, and faster execution of the firing mechanism were achieved.
In this time frame however, I still think that firearms were not on par with a bow in all those aspects and hence why the bow was still used extensively for far longer than cavalry was. Actually, if anything, this age is the last hurrah from cavalry
Going back to speculation, when oil runs out and no other sources of energy are found for locomotion, cavalry may make a comeback, a la The Postman style haha, maybe ... I find history is more cyclical than it is linear, imho
Still, it's always easier to press the trigger ... basically the bow became obsolete when guns were developed with greater loadout (more bullets in one stock), longer range, greater stopping power, faster reload, and faster execution of the firing mechanism were achieved.
In this time frame however, I still think that firearms were not on par with a bow in all those aspects and hence why the bow was still used extensively for far longer than cavalry was. Actually, if anything, this age is the last hurrah from cavalry
Going back to speculation, when oil runs out and no other sources of energy are found for locomotion, cavalry may make a comeback, a la The Postman style haha, maybe ... I find history is more cyclical than it is linear, imho
PANTERA.
Regular
Gr0vZ said:PANTERA. said:
You guys talk about the Battle of Krojanty?
The Polish cavalrymen were equipped anti-tank weapons, like the Bofor 37mm. Those bastards could penetrate tank armour of 26 mm, and most importantly, they were portable (dragged by horses). Panzer I and Panzer II were vulnerable to such weaponry. They never charged those tanks with lances, or sabres. No matter how poetically heroic or battle-frenzy the Poles were, it's quite reasonable to assume that they used the larger guns instead of sabres? Sabres? Why, to scratch off the paint of the tanks to piss off the Germans? Well, I guess those damn Poles have the balls to just do it for the lulz.
Yet, back in the 17th century, as there were reiters and dragoos that carried guns, the bow was still extensively used by Tartar units (speaking of the Deluge conflict). Which was more lethal?
Yeah I was reading about cavalry earlier.
Here is some more cool stuff about Polish cavalry during WW2. It seems they actually did have some successful attacks against the Germans, if its true.
Apart from countless battles and skirmishes in which the Polish cavalry units fought dismounted, there were 16 confirmed[3] cavalry charges during the 1939 war. Contrary to common belief, most of them were successful.
The first and perhaps best known happened on September 1, 1939, during the Battle of Krojanty. During this action, elements of the Polish 18th Uhlan Regiment met a large group of German infantry resting in the woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactic the Polish cavalry rarely used as their main weapon. The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed.
The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, alongside German tanks that had arrived at the field of battle only after the engagement. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article,[4] in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with their sabres and lances. Other possible source of the myth is a quote from Heinz Guderian's memoirs, in which he asserted that the Pomeranian Brigade had charged on German tanks with swords and lances.[5] Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was disseminated by German propaganda during the war with a staged Polish cavalry charge shown in their 1941 reel called "Geschwader Lützow".[1] In that movie Luftwaffe Avia 534B trainer planes of Czech origin acted as Polish PZL-11 fighters. After the end of World War II the same fraud was again being disseminated by Soviet propaganda as an example of the stupidity of Polish commanders and authorities, who allegedly did not prepare their country for war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.
Even such prominent German writers as Günter Grass, later accused of anti-Polonism by Jan Józef Lipski among others, were falling victims to this Nazi deception. Grass wrote the following passage, somewhat metaphorically, in his famous novel The Tin Drum:
O insane cavalry... with what aplomb they will kiss the hand of death, as though death were a lady; but first they gather, with sunset behind them - for color and romance are their reserves - and ahead of them the German tanks, stallions from the studs of Krupps von Bohlen und Halbach, no nobler steeds in all the world. But Pan Kichot, the eccentric knight in love with death, lowers his lance with the red-and-white pennant and calls on his men to kiss the lady's hand. The storks clatter white and red on rooftops, and the sunset spits out pits like cherries, as he cries to his cavalry: "Ye noble Poles on horseback, these are no steel tanks, they are mere windmills or sheep, I summon you to kiss the lady's hand".
On 1 September 2009 Sir Simon Jenkins accused Poles of "the most romantic and idiotic act of suicide of modern war."[6] On 21 September 2009, The Guardian was forced to publish an admission that his article "repeated a myth of the second world war, fostered by Nazi propagandists, when it said that Polish lancers turned their horses to face Hitler's panzers. There is no evidence that this occurred."[6]
"Representative Cavalary Squadron of Polish Army" on military parade in Warsaw commemorating the Feast of the Polish Army 2006
Polish Mounted Police city of Poznań
Other cavalry charges of 1939 were as follows:
1. September 1 - Battle of Mokra - 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment took by surprise the elements of German 4th Panzer Division, which retreated in panic.[4][7] During the charge, lances were used.
2. September 1 - Battle of Janów - 11th Polish Legion Uhlan Regiment on a recce mission encountered a similar unit of German cavalry. Lieut. Kossakowski ordered a cavalry charge, but the enemy did not accept battle and after a short clash withdrew[3] towards their positions.
3. September 2 - Battle of Borowa Góra - 1st squadron of the 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment encountered a squadron of German cavalry in the village of Borowa. A charge was ordered, but the Germans withdrew.[3]
4. September 11 - Osuchowo - 1st squadron of the 20th Uhlan Regiment charged through[3] the German infantry lines to avoid encirclement, and broke through. There were negligible losses on both sides.
5. September 12 - Kałuszyn - 4th squadron of the 11th Polish Legion Uhlan Regiment charged overnight at the German positions in the town of Kałuszyn. Although the charge was a mistake (the Polish infantry commander issued a wrong order which was understood as a charge order while the cavalry was meant to simply move forward), it was a success. After heavy casualties on both sides, the town was retaken[3] in the early morning.
6. September 13 - Mińsk Mazowiecki - 1st squadron of the 2nd Grochów Uhlan Regiment charged German infantry positions, but was repelled by German MG and artillery fire.
7. September 13 - Maliszewo - 1st squadron of the 27th Uhlan Regiment was engaged in heavy fighting near the village of Maliszewo. After the Germans were beaten[3] and started to retreat towards the village, the Poles charged and took the village along with a large number of German prisoners.
8. September 15 - Brochów - elements of the 17th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the German positions to frighten [3] the enemy infantry. Shortly before reaching the range of enemy weapons, they dismounted and continued their assault on foot; the attack was successful.
9. September 16 - Dembowskie - a platoon from the 4th squadron of the 17th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards a small German outpost located around a foresters' hut. The small number of Germans withdrew.[3]
10. September 19 - Battle of Wólka Węglowa - Most of the 14th Jazłowiec Uhlan Regiment (without its MGs and AT platoon) was ordered to probe the German lines near the town of Wólka Węglowa. After elements of 9th Małopolska Uhlan Regiment arrived, the group was ordered to charge through the German lines to open the way towards Warsaw and Modlin for the rest of Polish forces who were withdrawing from the Battle of Bzura. The Poles charged through a German artillery barrage and took the German infantry by surprise.[3] Polish losses were high (205 killed and wounded), the German losses remain unknown, but the Polish unit broke through and was the first to reach Warsaw after the Battle of Bzura.
11. September 19 - Łomianki - recce squad of 6th Mounted Artillery Detachment charged through the German lines in the town of Lomianki and paved[3] the way for the rest of the unit to Warsaw.
12. September 21 - Battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa - 3rd squadron of the 1st Mounted Detachment (improvised) charged through German infantry who were preparing to assault the Polish positions. The preparations were paralysed and the Germans withdrew.[3]
13. September 23 - Krasnobród - 1st squadron of the 25th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the town of Krasnobród. After heavy casualties, they reached the hilltop on which the town was located. A unit of German organic cavalry from the German 8th Infantry Division countercharged from the hill, but was repelled and the Poles captured the town and took the HQ[3] of the division, together with its commander and about 100 German soldiers. 40 Polish combatants previously taken prisoner by the Germans were also freed.
14. September 24 - Husynne - reserve squadron of the 14th Jazlowiec Uhlan Regiment (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of police and some remnants of divisional organic cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was led by the mounted police, and the Soviet forces withdrew in panic.[3] However, the attack was soon halted by a strong Soviet tank unit. Casualties were similar on both sides.
15. September 26 - Morańce - 27th Uhlan Regiment twice charged an entrenched German infantry battalion in the village of Morańce. Both charges were repelled with heavy casualties (the Poles lost 20 KIA and about 50 wounded, German losses are unknown). After the second charge the Germans sent out a soldier with a white flag and, after a short discussion with the Polish commander of the Nowogródek Cavalry Brigade, the Germans withdrew
The first and perhaps best known happened on September 1, 1939, during the Battle of Krojanty. During this action, elements of the Polish 18th Uhlan Regiment met a large group of German infantry resting in the woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactic the Polish cavalry rarely used as their main weapon. The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed.
The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, alongside German tanks that had arrived at the field of battle only after the engagement. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article,[4] in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with their sabres and lances. Other possible source of the myth is a quote from Heinz Guderian's memoirs, in which he asserted that the Pomeranian Brigade had charged on German tanks with swords and lances.[5] Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was disseminated by German propaganda during the war with a staged Polish cavalry charge shown in their 1941 reel called "Geschwader Lützow".[1] In that movie Luftwaffe Avia 534B trainer planes of Czech origin acted as Polish PZL-11 fighters. After the end of World War II the same fraud was again being disseminated by Soviet propaganda as an example of the stupidity of Polish commanders and authorities, who allegedly did not prepare their country for war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.
Even such prominent German writers as Günter Grass, later accused of anti-Polonism by Jan Józef Lipski among others, were falling victims to this Nazi deception. Grass wrote the following passage, somewhat metaphorically, in his famous novel The Tin Drum:
O insane cavalry... with what aplomb they will kiss the hand of death, as though death were a lady; but first they gather, with sunset behind them - for color and romance are their reserves - and ahead of them the German tanks, stallions from the studs of Krupps von Bohlen und Halbach, no nobler steeds in all the world. But Pan Kichot, the eccentric knight in love with death, lowers his lance with the red-and-white pennant and calls on his men to kiss the lady's hand. The storks clatter white and red on rooftops, and the sunset spits out pits like cherries, as he cries to his cavalry: "Ye noble Poles on horseback, these are no steel tanks, they are mere windmills or sheep, I summon you to kiss the lady's hand".
On 1 September 2009 Sir Simon Jenkins accused Poles of "the most romantic and idiotic act of suicide of modern war."[6] On 21 September 2009, The Guardian was forced to publish an admission that his article "repeated a myth of the second world war, fostered by Nazi propagandists, when it said that Polish lancers turned their horses to face Hitler's panzers. There is no evidence that this occurred."[6]
"Representative Cavalary Squadron of Polish Army" on military parade in Warsaw commemorating the Feast of the Polish Army 2006
Polish Mounted Police city of Poznań
Other cavalry charges of 1939 were as follows:
1. September 1 - Battle of Mokra - 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment took by surprise the elements of German 4th Panzer Division, which retreated in panic.[4][7] During the charge, lances were used.
2. September 1 - Battle of Janów - 11th Polish Legion Uhlan Regiment on a recce mission encountered a similar unit of German cavalry. Lieut. Kossakowski ordered a cavalry charge, but the enemy did not accept battle and after a short clash withdrew[3] towards their positions.
3. September 2 - Battle of Borowa Góra - 1st squadron of the 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment encountered a squadron of German cavalry in the village of Borowa. A charge was ordered, but the Germans withdrew.[3]
4. September 11 - Osuchowo - 1st squadron of the 20th Uhlan Regiment charged through[3] the German infantry lines to avoid encirclement, and broke through. There were negligible losses on both sides.
5. September 12 - Kałuszyn - 4th squadron of the 11th Polish Legion Uhlan Regiment charged overnight at the German positions in the town of Kałuszyn. Although the charge was a mistake (the Polish infantry commander issued a wrong order which was understood as a charge order while the cavalry was meant to simply move forward), it was a success. After heavy casualties on both sides, the town was retaken[3] in the early morning.
6. September 13 - Mińsk Mazowiecki - 1st squadron of the 2nd Grochów Uhlan Regiment charged German infantry positions, but was repelled by German MG and artillery fire.
7. September 13 - Maliszewo - 1st squadron of the 27th Uhlan Regiment was engaged in heavy fighting near the village of Maliszewo. After the Germans were beaten[3] and started to retreat towards the village, the Poles charged and took the village along with a large number of German prisoners.
8. September 15 - Brochów - elements of the 17th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the German positions to frighten [3] the enemy infantry. Shortly before reaching the range of enemy weapons, they dismounted and continued their assault on foot; the attack was successful.
9. September 16 - Dembowskie - a platoon from the 4th squadron of the 17th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards a small German outpost located around a foresters' hut. The small number of Germans withdrew.[3]
10. September 19 - Battle of Wólka Węglowa - Most of the 14th Jazłowiec Uhlan Regiment (without its MGs and AT platoon) was ordered to probe the German lines near the town of Wólka Węglowa. After elements of 9th Małopolska Uhlan Regiment arrived, the group was ordered to charge through the German lines to open the way towards Warsaw and Modlin for the rest of Polish forces who were withdrawing from the Battle of Bzura. The Poles charged through a German artillery barrage and took the German infantry by surprise.[3] Polish losses were high (205 killed and wounded), the German losses remain unknown, but the Polish unit broke through and was the first to reach Warsaw after the Battle of Bzura.
11. September 19 - Łomianki - recce squad of 6th Mounted Artillery Detachment charged through the German lines in the town of Lomianki and paved[3] the way for the rest of the unit to Warsaw.
12. September 21 - Battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa - 3rd squadron of the 1st Mounted Detachment (improvised) charged through German infantry who were preparing to assault the Polish positions. The preparations were paralysed and the Germans withdrew.[3]
13. September 23 - Krasnobród - 1st squadron of the 25th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the town of Krasnobród. After heavy casualties, they reached the hilltop on which the town was located. A unit of German organic cavalry from the German 8th Infantry Division countercharged from the hill, but was repelled and the Poles captured the town and took the HQ[3] of the division, together with its commander and about 100 German soldiers. 40 Polish combatants previously taken prisoner by the Germans were also freed.
14. September 24 - Husynne - reserve squadron of the 14th Jazlowiec Uhlan Regiment (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of police and some remnants of divisional organic cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was led by the mounted police, and the Soviet forces withdrew in panic.[3] However, the attack was soon halted by a strong Soviet tank unit. Casualties were similar on both sides.
15. September 26 - Morańce - 27th Uhlan Regiment twice charged an entrenched German infantry battalion in the village of Morańce. Both charges were repelled with heavy casualties (the Poles lost 20 KIA and about 50 wounded, German losses are unknown). After the second charge the Germans sent out a soldier with a white flag and, after a short discussion with the Polish commander of the Nowogródek Cavalry Brigade, the Germans withdrew
