General Feedback & Venting

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Windyplains said:
1.  What are the top three things that you dislike about the mod?  These could be features you feel are missing, things that annoy you about current features, things you feel are out of balance or really anything that you feel makes you want to play the mod less.  I ask folks to keep these constructive, but let me have it as I'm looking to reduce or remove these issues for the community.  I'd prefer it if this list was kept to your top three issues as I want people to think about what they'd most want to see corrected.

2. What are the top three things that you like about the mod?  What keeps you playing Silverstag over something else?  Specific features, the community, design?

3. If you could change one thing about the mod, regardless of your skills to do so, what would it be?  This is related to the first question, but not always.  Sometimes folks may not like certain things that currently exist, but they'd like to see something else added in as a higher priority.

Your mod is the best I've seen. Kudos!

I. Top 3 things I don't like about the mod:

1- The fantasy/magic RPG elements added via the abilities system. Specifically the ones that heal or add damage output in any way or form triggered when you inflict damage on the enemy. This completely ruins immersion/realism of the game.

Note: The abilities that increase accuracy to others for ranged is realistic. In medieval times archer regiments had an 'NCO' experienced archer who would stand a couple of steps in front of the archer group and he would aim first...showing the less experienced archers what angle to set the bow to. Not perfect but it made a mediocre, half trained archer in the formation able to range his shot a lot better than on his own.

also, the sprint/run ability is a bit ridiculous... I've seen NPC lords outrun my horse at full gallop. Perhaps it would be better to trade the speed bonus for a 'charge' bonus? You know, make the running NPC knock down others during the charge rather than turn him into a medieval FLASH?

2. This annoys the hell out of me in any mod: I face an enemy force of Sea Raiders. They all wear chainmail, use swords and shields and thrown spears and axes. I slay them all at great cost in casualties. My loot even with 14 loot skill: tattered leather helmets (which none wore), clubs (never saw them with one) and cloth armor (none wore any).

I mean...c'mon now! :razz: . I understand that looting what the enemy wears can make the player wealthy rather easily but in your mod that could be easily counteracted by lowering the cost of hiring troops AND adding the requirement of the player needing to have 1 unit of each of : chest armor of certain type+primary weapon+horse (if mounted) to hire the troop.

So, if an archer unit you can hire has a longbow, leather chest armor and a 1H sword then to hire it you pay a lot less to recruit him but you must have a longbow, a leather chest armor of any type and a 1H sword of any type in your inventory to recruit that one soldier. Want to recruit more than 1? Then you must have those items in inventory. The troop you hire wont use those things exactly since the hired troop has its own default gear but its just to make it fair for you to hire them.

This makes the inventory management skill very valuable (for you and companions) and you can add a 'Recruiter' role for companions just like storekeeper is.. inv. management and training skill would be their bonus skills... inv. management to carry the gear to hire the troops and training to lower their cost even more. This role would have a 'shopping list' of troops which they will hire to keep your forces at full strength.

3. Another thing that is present in all mods and annoys me greatly: Melee combat AI is really messed up. Troops with spears/pikes (150+ weapons) will charge to within arm's reach of the enemy and then try to stick the spear into them... once in melee the AI only swings the weapon nonstop as they either rush/chestbump you or they run backwards. AI troops also gang up in a very confined space and swing weapons which, if in real life, would be chopping the arms and heads of friendly troops around them. Finally, the speed in which the AI swings the weapons is VERY fast. Ungodly fast.

I think melee combat would be greatly enhanced and made more realistic if:
a) Athletics skill was changed to simply counter encumbrance and diminish loss of speed going uphill. This would make troops not be so unrealistically fast on their feet.

b) If possible, code in that the AI keeps at least 1 meter distance in all directions between itself and others. This would solve the gang-up problem as well as the chest-bump range problem. If possible, a separate script for distance to enemy could be used when the AI has a target... distance to keep between the AI and his target would be the AI's own weapon length minus 25% ...so that if the unit uses a longer weapon he will try to keep his reach advantage. Formation orders override these of course.. this problem only appears when troops break formation and fight on their own anyway.

c) All melee and ranged weapon speeds are 90+ ... I think this is why the melee is a rabid swingfest. Lowering these numbers should solve the problem. Perhaps a ratio of weapon length to speed could be used so that the longest reach weapons have the slowest swing times? Ranged weapons would also take a speed cut to balance them vs. point a. (troops walking slower).


II. Things I like about the mod:

1- Amazing variety of things to do. Its just unbelievable.
2- Very stable. Most other mods will crash on me within an hour of play. This mod has only crashed on me after I quit/load nonstop for a long time.
3- It combines features of the most immersion-enchancing mods into one.

III. Things I'd change:

I listed a few above as solutions to what I didn't like. However, overall, the one thing that I would like improved is the economy system. As it is, its chaotic in nature and you still make a lot more money and faster selling prisoners and loot than you do completing a full-map trade run.

I do not know how the game handles the production/demand system of villages/towns but ideally I'd love to see it work like this:

Villages: Produce only raw materials. A village will send 50% of its production to its linked castle/town every time the farmer walks out of the village. The remaining 50% remains in town as items they sell (or that can be looted). Village prices are based on your standing with the village.

Each village should have a specific set of items they produce...which should be ideally based on their geographic location. Aka if near river/ocean then fish would be an item. If in open land they'd make grain/beef/wool/fruits. If near mountains they'd make wool/hides/iron..if near forests then fur pelts/hides/etc. At random you can add them raw silk, cheese, etc etc (the missing raw items /foodstuffs).

Villages would need certain items depending on the stuff they produce. Tools needed in all villages, grain if they make bread, wool cloth (they gotta clothe themselves!), boar spears and hunting bows for hide-producing villages (to hunt with), you get the idea.

Castles: Castles should have their own small markets as well. These are military garrisons so they should buy military hardware from you at better price than anywhere else. Particularly horses. Aside from that, castles should always buy prisoners from the factions they are at war with as well as bandit prisoners. Castles require iron (for their forges/smiths) and produce tools and faction-specific armors and weapons. Castles also require foodstuffs.

(side note: since castles would replace the slave traders...why not make the slave traders SELL you slaves? Like, you can take these slaves to your fiefs and increase its production that way...or once in your fief, free them (+honor) and your village gains a few prosperity points (more workers, free, happy!)... or camp->take an action-> Free them (+honor)/ Conscript them (as free merc militia) / Enlist them (you give them freedom in exchange of serving you as lev 12 troops) . )

Towns: Towns require raw materials so they can produce processed & luxury goods. Certain towns would make certain goods and require goods from other towns which are 2+days travel time at least.

Your standing with villages/towns/castles and your knowledge level of them reduces the price penalty..making up for the 50% that Trade 10 does not.

When the 'merchant stocks are reset map-wide' happens I would hope the game looks at each village/castle/town and sees how many 'need' materials were brought in before the reset and have that translate into 'with what we received before the reset this location was able to produce...' items which would then be available the next reset as 'for sale' items. Aka if you don't feed the town that makes velvet with dyes and raw silk then the town produces no velvet. If you fed it a LOT then it will make a lot of velvet. Bread would need salt and grain... tools need iron and leather (for the handles/strappings!), castles need iron/leather/damaged-state-weapons/armor to make weapons/armor ,etc,etc.

Overall this would allow a player to play the merchant prince in a more immersive and realistic environment.

(oh and...why is the iron and salt in the iron/salt mines more expensive than everywhere else? shouldnt it be cheaper? o_O )

Finally, a wishlist item:

Why not make wounded troops (not companions or self or NPC lords) take a long time to recover? Like, if wounded, with no medic bonuses applied to them, they should heal only 10% health per day. They cannot come back into service until they at 100% . This would make the player and the AI finally have wars of attrition rather than wars of who has more money to keep recruiting cannon fodder (which the AI, with unlimited cash, always wins anyway). I mean, you could have 50 healthy troops under your command and stumble upon a 300 army lord but only 20 of those 300 are fit to fight... now THAT's a different game than what we have now.
 
(which the AI, with unlimited cash, always wins anyway)
AI doesn't have unlimited cash, their income is based on their fiefs etc
So, if an archer unit you can hire has a longbow, leather chest armor and a 1H sword then to hire it you pay a lot less to recruit him but you must have a longbow, a leather chest armor of any type and a 1H sword of any type in your inventory to recruit that one soldier. Want to recruit more than 1? Then you must have those items in inventory. The troop you hire wont use those things exactly since the hired troop has its own default gear but its just to make it fair for you to hire them.
This would probably break the recruitment balance. AI just "buys" reinforcements for their parties based on their income. Imagine a situation in which you need 200 archers quickly. Good luck searching for 200 bows.
 
I don't see that in my experience. Using cheat mode I've brought the nords down to just Wercheg and kept slaying all their lord's 150+ armies for months... only the lord of the town would be the one receiving cash (and not much of it...all its villages were kept perma-looted) and they just kept coming.

Never ran out of cash to pay their troops or to keep hiring them. I ran out of patience before they ran out of cash. o_O

This would probably break the recruitment balance. AI just "buys" reinforcements for their parties based on their income. Imagine a situation in which you need 200 archers quickly. Good luck searching for 200 bows.

Thats the point of it. Granted you pointed out a potential 'cant be done' .. I doubt the AI can be coded to loot or buy the gear to recruit its troops... so the player would end up at a huge recruiting disadvantage. Didn't think of that.
 
I don't see that in my experience. Using cheat mode I've brought the nords down to just Wercheg and kept slaying all their lord's 150+ armies for months... only the lord of the town would be the one receiving cash (and not much of it...all its villages were kept perma-looted) and they just kept coming.

Never ran out of cash to pay their troops or to keep hiring them. I ran out of patience before they ran out of cash. o_O
It's not only numbers, it's also quality. Based on difficulty, lords will have generally at least 70-150 troops with them; however, it is no force suitable for fighting. For example in a game I'm playing for Nords, we've been in war literally since the dawn of times. First with Swadia, then with Vaegirs, and then with Khergits. Khergits weren't in war for a very long time. Our lords had around 150-200 men, Swadian had 70-150, Vaegirs had as many as Swadians I think and Khergits had 300+, mostly C3 and C4.
 
skyfaller said:
1- The fantasy/magic RPG elements added via the abilities system. Specifically the ones that heal or add damage output in any way or form triggered when you inflict damage on the enemy. This completely ruins immersion/realism of the game.
Windy explained (probably better than me) that for him the life bar was reflecting one ability to fight and not the life of a character (because at low hp you should be on the ground barely able to move instead of still fighting like a madman).
So the health regen is more a surge of adrenaline than a magic health regeneration.

But I'm pretty sure that it can be deactivated for both the player and AI in the options if you really don't like it.
 
it can be deactivated ....but only along with all the other abilities which is hurtful to the mod overall.

Instead of health gain/loss it could be turned into a morale thing...based on units killed (not wounded).

Like, morale could reach a point where units turn and run if too many of their own die in a short amount of time without their side scoring kills. Currently the AI will just fight until theres less than 5 enemy troops left vs your 50+ and those 5 will run... which is kind of silly. I'd run the moment my team loses more than half its strength and the enemy outnumbers use 2+ to one. I value my ass :razz:
 
Is health regeneration really that important? From what I noticed, it doesn't make much difference unless I change damage to 1/4 to me.
 
It varies greatly depending of the strength of your character and the mod difficulty.
But even at 100% damage and maxed mod difficulty with 24 strength with the proper gear and abilities I had no real issue charging right into the invaders during siege defenses.


skyfaller: Under combat options the very first line is a dropdown menu where you can activate health regen for the player, AI, both or none.
 
Hm, interesting...I can only last for couple of minutes in sieges in front line, though it depends against who I fight...Rhodoks usually take me down with crossbows(damn cowards) quite quickly, Swadians and Vaegirs a bit slower, and Khergits are probably the weakest in sieges. But they take me down eventually.
 
It really depends of the setup (and yes against rhodoks I prefer to kill some crossbowmen before charging :p):
Hardy helps negate the malus added by mod difficulty to health regen while Bloodlust ensure that I won't stay low on life for long. Then it's all about stuff (and engine issues: a "can crush through block" weapon *always* crush through block with vertical slash) and the ability to one shot anything that come in range.

I will probably lower mod difficulty (and maybe reduce damage to 1/2) on my next playthrough but ignore hardy. I hope it will be the perfect setup for health regen to be a nice addition while keeping it under control.
 
Its still rather gamey and too fantasy-like in my opinion though.

The option of self/AI/None still means that if I choose none then the abilities are wasted as they dont do anything. I'd prefer to have those abilities be more realistic to begin with. :smile:
 
skyfaller said:
Its still rather gamey and too fantasy-like in my opinion though.
That's really all about perspective though and how you view health within a game.  Within Silverstag I consider the health bar to represent your overall "ability to fight" which incorporates general health status, stamina and morale.  If the health bar was a direct representation of your physical status then the game would need to put you on the ground before you were even down below half health and likely distract you quite a bit even above that due to pain.  Health regeneration is a bit of a misleading name since it would imply your repairing damage to yourself when I instead point towards it being a measure of your confidence / morale being boosted by victory.  Morale handling on the battlefield could use some work, but it would fall more in line with a talent like discipline.  The next issue with having troops flee is that many players really wouldn't appreciate me applying those same rules to your own army and having them flee on you when you believe you could have won the fight.  As I generally prefer to have the player and AI run by the same rules I try to steer away from things where I take away your control over your character or your army.

It is also a good idea to consider that as a mod developer, I cannot create a mod specific to one person's skill level within the game.  What I have been attempted to do is provide the tools so that you can customize your own difficulty to suit your playing style.  A talent such as hardy was designed specifically to help folks who have a really hard time staying alive (even on 25% damage) or to soften the difficulty scaling when you move to 100% damage.  If someone wants to combine bloodlust (+damage), berserker (+max health), hardy (+% regen on kill), haste (reset sprint on kill), boundless endurance (+speed / duration of sprint) and charging strike (+damage on sprint attack) they could make a melee powerhouse on foot that would likely make the game feel too easy, but that's definitely an option I'm making available for them.  By going that route they miss out on the ability to use talents that enhance their allies or their ability to generate income through trading.

There's a lot of things that could be done to reduce the fantasy-like qualities of Warband, but as a community you may not appreciate the gameplay it would create.  Imagine continually bleeding wounds sapping your strength, location based damage where an injury to your leg severely limits your movement speed or one to your head has a tendency to just straight knock you unconscious.  All of those are things I can implement, but I don't think they'd be overly popular additions for the majority of players.
 
Windyplains said:
skyfaller said:
Its still rather gamey and too fantasy-like in my opinion though.
Morale handling on the battlefield could use some work, but it would fall more in line with a talent like discipline.  The next issue with having troops flee is that many players really wouldn't appreciate me applying those same rules to your own army and having them flee on you when you believe you could have won the fight.  As I generally prefer to have the player and AI run by the same rules I try to steer away from things where I take away your control over your character or your army.

It is also a good idea to consider that as a mod developer, I cannot create a mod specific to one person's skill level within the game.  What I have been attempted to do is provide the tools so that you can customize your own difficulty to suit your playing style.  A talent such as hardy was designed specifically to help folks who have a really hard time staying alive (even on 25% damage) or to soften the difficulty scaling when you move to 100% damage.  If someone wants to combine bloodlust (+damage), berserker (+max health), hardy (+% regen on kill), haste (reset sprint on kill), boundless endurance (+speed / duration of sprint) and charging strike (+damage on sprint attack) they could make a melee powerhouse on foot that would likely make the game feel too easy, but that's definitely an option I'm making available for them.  By going that route they miss out on the ability to use talents that enhance their allies or their ability to generate income through trading.

There's a lot of things that could be done to reduce the fantasy-like qualities of Warband, but as a community you may not appreciate the gameplay it would create.  Imagine continually bleeding wounds sapping your strength, location based damage where an injury to your leg severely limits your movement speed or one to your head has a tendency to just straight knock you unconscious.  All of those are things I can implement, but I don't think they'd be overly popular additions for the majority of players.

Thank you, especially regarding the morale thing. I don't know why so many people think that your army automatically turning around and fleeing without listening to you when the enemy outnumbers you by a mere 2 to 1 is a great idea when it's just aggravating, especially when you have a tactically-sound plan and realistically, you would have explained to your troops just how you were overcoming the numerical difference. It only makes the game more focused on "blob armies" where you gather as many low-tier, village recruits as you can to avoid auto-routing by low morale rather then armies built around troop types, formations and strategies.

And given that this is ultimately meant to be a game and not a "cinematic mod" or "realistic history simulator", I'm fine with some stuff being "gamey". I'd rather a game try to be a game, and not a movie.
 
Could you reconsider that please?

The custom commander was one of the very few ways to level up a companion to keep up with your own leveling. It makes no difference in melee combat map since its still you giving the order just in a different avatar body but it makes a huge difference in the world-map & long term game itself because all the XP gained in that battle goes to the companion not you.


...and being an old final fantasy fan...the switching of characters for battle is appealing!
 
Hey there, this is my first post on the forums even though I've been a long time lurker.  I've been an avid fan of the Mount and Blade franchise since the debut of the first M&B.  I've played at least a dozen or so various mods for M&B, Warband, and With Fire and Sword, (including the Floris mod pack, which I understand the creator of Silverstag had a hand in designing, so kudos for that)    and I have to say that the current build of Silverstag has to be one of my favorites out of them all (right up there, perhaps tied with Brytenwalda).  I understand it's nowhere near complete,  but I love what's been done so far,  especially the emphasis on streamlining some of the more tedious aspects of the game,  and making sure mod content is functional and quality rather than just...  tossed in for funsies. So if my post sounds negative or anything like that,  please know that I really overall appreciate the amount of work that has gone into the mod,  basically improving on the vanilla experience in every way, without adding a bunch of annoying/broken features like so many other mods often do.

What has spurred me to finally getting around to posting however is a problem that has existed since the original incarnation of M&B vanilla, which I've noticed has not been altered too much in Silverstag as of yet. What I'm talking about specifically are of course sieges.  Now, sieges have always been a tedious affair.  Starving the defenders out honestly does not work in any sense due to a variety of game mechanics,  so essentially the only recourse is to assault.  Generally this means a single siege tower or ladder and an annoying bottleneck which highly favors the defenders, as well as making any siege last an unbelievably long amount of time if the player character doesn't somehow manage to hack their way behind enemy lines rambo style.  The alternative is to equip a bow/xbow and take the enemy out along the walls one by one,  but this also takes a significant amount of time,  as well as feels completely gamey as you go around collecting arrows and missiles fired upon you and your troops to toss back at the enemy.

Eventually however, given you brought enough heavily armed troops and/or ranged troops, you win the war of tedious attrition and can claim your prize.  Then of course,  comes the inevitable siege defense,  where if you actually choose to try,  is nigh impossible to actually lose. This  due to the same terrible mechanic of having a single, tightly packed bottleneck as the only point of actual contact between the two forces,  which the player can take massive advantage of either sitting on the front line with a massive two-handed weapon, crushing skulls as the enemy rolls up the ladder one-at-a-time,    or...  as I just took advantage of in a recent scenario,  with a ranged weapon, (thanks to the mods addition of wall runners constantly replenishing ammo, which I like the idea of in theory)  the result being that you're basically given a ladder full of sitting ducks to crack headshot after headshot with.

This second outcome is essentially what happened to me in my last siege (as a side note, in all my playthroughs regardless of mod I generally love the game right up until it comes time to take/defend land,  then, largely due to how terribly sieges are handled in the game, I tend to get bored shortly after and quit playing until I start anew.)  Noticing that the Vaegirs had essentially lost every city they owned in less than a week, I decided that for the sake of faction balance I would assist them in reclaiming their lands.  That part was fairly easy, lightly garrisoned Curaw fell to my troops in no time,    but soon after  King Yarogleck and I,    with roughly 250 men between us,  found ourselves under siege by a 1900+  troop horde of angry Norsemen.

Fine, whatever, I thought, we'll fight them to the last man. And we proceeded into battle...  well, me with my warbow and an infinite supply of ammo,  managed to kill 209 of the poor fools,  sitting there like idiots trying to climb the only ladder to the walls. Click, aim, headshot. Click, aim, headshot.  Over... and over... and over.  Ugh. Talk about tedious!  At the end of the day King Yaro and I only lost 30 men between us,  1/2 of my casualties being wounded companions.  On the other hand,  the Nords lost over 750 men.  Of course,  that left them with 1200 to resume the attack a few hours later.    Rather than suffer through that same crap yet again,  I just rage-quit and came here to beg you guys to do something about the terrible siege mechanics.  Add in some more ladders,  make some destructible doors, do SOMETHING,  because the way things are, well...  frankly they suck.  And I know it's not the mods fault,  as I said sieges have for a long time been the weakest part of the franchise.    But for pitys sake,  being one of the weakest parts of the game I think they should quite obviously be one of the first things to be reworked.

Surely I can't be alone in my hatred for sieges? 

Anyway, that was my rant and/or suggestion.    Love most of the rest of the work that you have done! (Although another thing I will mention briefly is that I edited out the ridiculous strength requirements for most for most of the equipment,  I didn't understand that at all.)  Thank you for all your work in the community in making such a great game even better!
 
Great write up and thank you for the feedback.  The OSP siege pack by Lord Samuel that adds more than one point of entry on sieges will be included in v0.24's release and that work is already implemented.  That fix is right around the corner. :smile:
 
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