[Game Mechanic] Spinning and Mouse Sensitivity.

[Jack_Merchantson]

According to Armagan, there is a sweet spot mechanism already:

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,95592.msg2479328.html#msg2479328

 

[kongxinga]

If the sweet spots are in put in the turn limit in already. This is one of the most immersion breaking bugs in the game, and can potentially reduce it to the level of arcadey melee games like Savage, which had the ridiculous "my mouse sensitivity is higher so  I turn and swing faster" insanity. What was sad was that the players stopped treating it like a bug, and started  treating it like a skill to be mastered, which created yet another artificial game skill which has no bearing at all in real life. Classic examples include bunny hopping, rocket jumping, moving diagonally making you faster, and changing stances mid air jump in shooters. Is there any immersion left after seeing these idiotic examples in the old games? Sad thing is that some players think they are pro because they mastered these bugs. I like to see them bunny hop around in a real firefight without ending up dead after looking stupid for example.

The crucial thing is some official word on the status of this game breaking bug. State clearly the bug status of spinning. A lot of players are teaching the spinning trick as if it was a legitimate skill. It most certainly is not. Pretty much everyone can do it, just some refuse to, because everytime they do it they feel like going to a war one and bouncing up and down like a rabbit on steroids.  I guess If a man-at-arms died in battle back in medieval times, it was because he forgot to increase his mouse sensitivity and turn his neck.

Turn limits is/was a rather crude fix, but it is a fix nonetheless, and makes intuitive sense. Your character is already turning with all his might with each swing. You can't make it faster by moving your mouse.

 

[kingofnoobia]

Or simply put a freaking turn limit in.

I have no problem with a turn limit, but it should only kick in once you are actually swinging (and while you are doing so, the turn limit should be pretty heavy). So you can't just dance around your opponent knowing that he'll turn too slowly to hit you. Also, I believe overheads and stabs should not get this penalty, as there is no problem with them, and hitting people will get a lot more difficult if your character is less responsive.

All in all, I don't think spinning is such an enormous problem now. I can block and counter quite nicely in the duel server. Attack that come in too early in the swing generally don't even flinch someone in anything over leather jerkin.

 

[Manitas]

How about the other way around, what are the reasons not to limit ability to turn.

I've seen 'clunky', 'awkward' 'no fun' and the likes, but they are subjective and pretty meaningless. Also, people not always say what they mean, some of them probably think 'it's a nice exploit' or 'it's too difficult with limits', or else.

Are there any specific reasons?

 

[Berserker Pride]

You can limit the ability to turn all you want.  But the attacks will still connect beside you quicker than in front of you.  So people will still go for the attack from the side.  And with the turn limit you won't be able to attack and block as you won't be able to turn and face your opponent after your attack like you do now.  Which leaves your only option as uncontrolled random spamming.

 

[Manitas]

You can limit the ability to turn all you want.  But the attacks will still connect beside you quicker than in front of you.

Sure, but that's an argument in favor of so called 'sweet spots', i was curious about arguments in favor of relaxed turn limits.
Are there any?

 

[Berserker Pride]

How about the other way around, what are the reasons not to limit ability to turn.

I've seen 'clunky', 'awkward' 'no fun' and the likes, but they are subjective and pretty meaningless. Also, people not always say what they mean, some of them probably think 'it's a nice exploit' or 'it's too difficult with limits', or else.

Are there any specific reasons?

Ahem...

uncontrolled random spamming.

 

[Jack_Merchantson]

I've been playing around with this IRL, and I've noticed something interesting.

I can turn around while swinging my axe waster about as fast as the game models, but only within a 180 degree arc.  Further than that, and I have to either spin slower the whole way or I go off balance.  A continual spin requires different footwork and body mechanics than a 180 degree snap, which can be quite fast (this probably has something to do with human adaptation to predators...)

I think it might make sense to drastically limit the turn rate of footmen beyond a 180 degree limit. Suggest leaving it as it is within that limit.

 

[UsF]

Turn limit is in, but only clientside. Your character doesn't seem to be spinning, but serverside, he's a madman, turning as fast as your mouse is. You don't see it, but he still is.

Turn limit should not depend on attacking/blocking, since a person circling you could never be attacked, because you would turn slower as soon as you start the attack. I would think a turn limit if you are moving in any direction would be nice (not a check on button pressing but actual movement, to prevent jumping spinattacks). This way a person standing still could easily defend against someone who tries to run around him.
Jumping in general should leave you with negative results if you spin more than 180 degrees during the jump, making you fall down for example.

 

[Caveman]

Make spinning have no effect on damage, or limit it to 10% (random number. may be completely inappropriate) more damage over the animations normal damage.

I also like the idea of limiting/stopping spin after 180 degrees while the swing animation is playing.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Armagan just mentioned in the swing sweet spot thread that the damage from an early hit that you turn into will be decreased.  There was already something in place that reduced damage on an early hit but the effect will be more noticeable next patch.  Which is going to be awesome!

 

[del_diablo]

What i think when i hear "limitations to turning" is that when ATTACKING you can only I.E: Spin 180 degrees. And only when attacking(aka swinging). 
So the old patches just made it impossible to actually turn around ALL times instead of just fixing the attack? No wonder you people seem to hate the idea. And just limit rotation when "swinging", when slashing or stabbing there is nothing to earn i guess(or give those 210 or 240 degree max spin).

So basically sweetspots would just mean that the spinning is 100% useless as hitting people with your fist deals more damage.
Turn limitation on ATTACKING, would also work.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Limiting turn while attacking didn't work either.  The turning isn't the problem the extreme speed without sacrificing damage is.(Or I should say was)

 

[Vornne]

How about the other way around, what are the reasons not to limit ability to turn.

I've seen 'clunky', 'awkward' 'no fun' and the likes, but they are subjective and pretty meaningless. Also, people not always say what they mean, some of them probably think 'it's a nice exploit' or 'it's too difficult with limits', or else.

Are there any specific reasons?

I have given plenty of specific reasons it's bad, and so have others... turn limits also affect blocking, viewing, and movement, while not fixing the actual problem: that you can still maneuver your weapon to hit the enemy at the very start of the swing before they have a chance to respond and deal killing damage. As Beserker said it lead to players doing "drive by" attacks where you try run past the enemy to hit them while not looking, and also generally waiting until your opponent attacks first so you can use your superior maneuverability to get around them and kill. I experienced this for myself, I'm not just parroting someone else.

This thread seems to be getting a bit pointless, as many players have tested all the variants put forward here already. The game's combat speed and fluidity relies on being able to quickly and accurately adjust your position, view, and where you will hit; the correct thing to do is to make the perfect swing deal the most damage, not to try limit everyone so they can't do anything but the correct "perfect" swings. Armagan has just said that the next version will include more obvious sweet spots, which should at least help if not fully fix the issues in question.

 

[Shik]

I may be in the minority, but I enjoyed the earlier patches with the so-called "clunky" turn limits. The problems with the patch were not the turn limit itself, but the fact that the turn limit was addressed independently of the general movement system, which also had flaws in it. The turn limit patch exposed the movement system problem - for things to work out, both have to be addressed. The current state with spinning is honestly not an acceptable status quo, IMO.

 

[del_diablo]

I have given plenty of specific reasons it's bad, and so have others... turn limits also affect blocking, viewing, and movement, while not fixing the actual problem: that you can still maneuver your weapon to hit the enemy at the very start of the swing before they have a chance to respond and deal killing damage. As Beserker said it lead to players doing "drive by" attacks where you try run past the enemy to hit them while not looking, and also generally waiting until your opponent attacks first so you can use your superior maneuverability to get around them and kill. I experienced this for myself, I'm not just parroting someone else.

HOW in the world are they going to get around more than 180/190 degress during the attack?!

 

[Manitas]

I have given plenty of specific reasons it's bad, and so have others... turn limits also affect blocking, viewing, and movement

You call them reasons, they are tautologies at best.
Yeah, limits do affect movement and so on, that's the idea behind them.

The game's combat speed and fluidity relies on being able to quickly and accurately adjust your position, view, and where you will hit; the correct thing to do is to make the perfect swing deal the most damage

If you call the ability to turn instantly anytime 'fluid' then we probably have different ideas about the meaning of the word.

Racing games made this leap decades ago. They rely on being able to drive quickly and accurately, yet all of them now implement turn limits, inertia and more. While affecting the 'ability to do anything anytime' it adds depth, makes them challenging and worthwhile.
Yeah, it requires more skill with limits, and WB actually could use somewhat steeper learning curve.

I may be in the minority, but I enjoyed the earlier patches with the so-called "clunky" turn limits. The problems with the patch were not the turn limit itself, but the fact that the turn limit was addressed independently of the general movement system, which also had flaws in it. The turn limit patch exposed the movement system problem - for things to work out, both have to be addressed. The current state with spinning is honestly not an acceptable status quo, IMO.

Exactly.

 

[Vornne]

If you want the turn restrictions to apply only when swinging a weapon, and it's intentional that it affects blocking, viewing, movement and more as well, as soon as anyone starts an attack they are immediately at a huge disadvantage; which leads to silly games of hanging back and not attacking but waiting for the opponent to attack first, or "going in blind" - getting around the turn restrictions by working out how to attack where you can't see... rather than wanting to attack agressively to get the priority.

I would argue that turn limits do not add to the overall skill requirement of the game, rather make it simpler, easier, and less interesting; since you can basically only set up one good attack, and then you are pretty helpless to carry on to another attack or defense since the other players can easily move (and turn if the limit only applies to swings) out of your view and blocking arc to deal their own attacks; the game loses much of it's fluidity where you move around changing from one attack to the next in quick succession, until one player makes a mistake and the other capitalizes on it.

I'm not against limits entirely, but I think the game as it is doesn't need much limitation to turn speed over what is currently possible. On suggestion which I think might work well is to have a limit that only kicks in when swinging after turning further than 180 degrees or thereabouts - as many of the things simulated by the mouse movement control like turning your head, twisting your upper body, making small twists on the balls of your feet, and so on are easy to do and very fast for moderate angles but don't work for turning right around. This should mainly limit the fairly ineffective but ridiculous ballerina twirling a few players seem to do...

Though I think everything should wait to see if and how the swing sweet spots in the next version helps, first.

 

[Dave0Lantern]

this has to be the most annoying bug in the game since the swing movement was unlimited so many patches ago.  In a patch far far away. 

Since combat was too stiff without moving, they need to just slow/limit the turn speed and make the shields have to go up and down to successfully block attack overhead and down low.  It's not the turning of the player that makes combat any more flowing, it's the stockyness of the stupid shields and how they block everything in front of them.  they are in need of hitbox minimizing so bad.