For those who DO...

[Damien]

Insert your favorite martial arts school, or living history group here.

True enough. It just seems to happen more with the SCAers. If nothing else but because a decent number of SCAers (because the organization is pretty easy to get into, and is popular with LARPers) don't really understand that what they're learning is not accurate, combat-worthy tactics, but rather a mix of historical combat and fantasy/safety stuff.

The only crime in being any of the above is hubris.

The only crime, I'd say, is not understanding what you're doing. If someone in the SCA sets themselves up as fully capable in the area of historical swordsmanship - he is not guilty of hubris so much as guilty of not understanding the sport/re-enactment that he's been engaging in. Likewise, there is no hubris in someone of a different school of learning saying that their way is -functionally- superior. Indeed, quite a few SCAers I know would readily attest to the fact that someone in ARMA or one of the smaller historical re-enactment groups is far more capable in this regard.

It's all about what you're doing, and understanding its place. SCAers would beat an ARMA guy 9 times out of 10 when fighting with SCA rules. But in a truly historical-style spar, he will almost always lose. There's no shame in that anymore than saying the Olympic fencer doesn't stand a chance in a straight-out spar against the ARMA guy with a longsword.

 

[Blackthorn]

Being outside the SCA and ARMA, I find it interesting how some groups develop. In the UK, the main groups are the Vikings!, Conquest, Regia etc.  (in my period).

I've been part of Regia, and was actually quite disturbed at the general skill level of most SCA combatants. I've been studying and sparring in a casual way since I was 9, becoming serious and more historically exact when I was about 14. The experience I gained during this time has actually been more helpful than anything learned since; I think people set too much store by rigid teaching or learning; 2/3rds of swordplay is developing your own distinct style. This is very evident when using a shield- there are major issues with the different ways of using a shield- dynamic, defensive, closing and boxing, etc. etc. which are all as 'right' or 'wrong' as the person who uses them.
Within Regia I was dissapointed that 'properly taught' swordsmen offered me little real challenge; what they'd been taught obviously hampered them, and they'd not been free to learn what was comfortable for them, instead seemingly crowbarred into a ''single school of thought'' style. A more free-form style combining facets of most existing styles tends to be more useful- I've spent a lot of time sifting and discarding various swordsmanship manuals; I think you should always find what works for you.

With this in mind, I find it interesting that smaller groups have more of a dynamic attitude- my group trained with a member from another group- the second best combatant, and the son of their group's head. He was a good fighter, and clearly knew his way around his weapons, but fell afoul of the upper class of my group's fighters; he lost several duels with myself, my protige and my officers. Instead of his father or him taking offence or casting dispersions, his father instead offered to train together with our group on a bigger scale, as he wanted to see how we fought and see if there was anything he could learn from us. He is a 40-odd year old, and a reenactor of 20 years. I'm 20, and have been sparring for 11 years, re-enacting seriously for four/five.

I think group attitudes are the most important thing for me; the actual 'who is best' argument isn't hugely important, but a group prepared to learn new styles, embrace new ideas and attempt to form their OWN overall training methods rather than stick rigidly to previous regimen seem to be the most combatitively successful- this is no more evident than at Hastings Free-for-All, where groups such as Conquest, who have a shifting, embracing training technique tend to outfight their 'parent' group Regia, from whom they split off in the mid 90's.

(All that said, the most impressive warrior with any weapon I've ever met was Paddy O'Connell, of Regia. I take it as a great honour that he sparred with me.)

 

[Merentha]

SCA members, since I'm almost certainly joining the SCA...who's going to Pennsic next summer?

 

[brasidus]

Well, I'm retired, but I was always an Estrella War man myself. The war combat rules at Pennsic are too restricting for me tactically, but the size and the woods battles do make up for it a lot.

A tip for you Merentha, Damiens post above inferrs that WMA and SCA are mutually exclusive,

It's all about what you're doing, and understanding its place. SCAers would beat an ARMA guy 9 times out of 10 when fighting with SCA rules. But in a truly historical-style spar, he will almost always lose.

  and that is where I feel he is incorrect.

Some of the most effective SCA combatants I know are also in the forefront of the WMA movement. Thier success in SCA combat has much to do with thier study of traditional manuals andtechniques.  Just two of the most well known are Brian R. Price of the Schola St. George and Bob Charron of St. Martins Academy.

Go and enjoy it. Learn to be true to yourself and you will learn to enjoy the scope of things without letting innacuracies around you get to you, or effect your accuracy. Find a good group and stick with them.

I have found that if my camp, and my unit are top notch, then I can ignorethe polyester ghettos and as I walk through the camps they wind up blending with the better camps.

Have fun mate.

 

[Merentha]

Oh, I'm aware of the differences between ARMA and SCA (I've been in ARMA for a while now).  I'm willing to play by SCA rules while I'm there, though the lack of throws and shincuts will certainly hurt me for a while.

I do think Damien has a point, though.  Lets take the longsword as an example, since I know it best.  If you throw a zornhau and I counter moving to kron, I can step in and throw you, whereas in the SCA, you can't do that.  That gives me one trick I know that the average SCA-er won't know or be able to respond to as effectively.  Likewise the shincuts.  A springen to the knees works very well if you can get very low to the ground with your body, especially if its not something the SCAer expects.

Now, if we are talking topnotch fighters-no way is that going to affect them.  For the laymen and less advanced fighters, there is definitely going to be a slight edge for the ARMA members, if they don't play by SCA rules.  I hope that made sense and didn't come off as arrogant.

 

[brasidus]

My reason for feeling he is incorrect is that there are a good many SCA fighters who are not only well versed in Fiore I.33 Talhoffer ect, but some that are in the forefront of study and have been since, yes HACA (now ARMA) was just starting.  His post seems to infer that the two (SCA and WMA) are exclusive of one another, when in fact, they can be complimentary, helpful, and sometimes the same thing.

Are you familiar with Charron or Price?
They are excellent examples of what I am talking about.

 

[Merentha]

One reason I chose to join this SCA group was that at least two of them would be willing to work with me after practice, ARMA style.  I know a little bit about the two you mentioned, enough to recognize their names, and agree that there are very good SCA members who are leaders in the WMA field.  I took his post to mean that many SCAers don't realize or don't think about how the rules the SCA uses can affect their fighting style and how it differs from what might truly be used on a battlefield.

 

[brasidus]

It differs from area to area. Talking about the SCA can be hard because it is such a loose organization that covers over 35000 people and over 30 years so there is a enormous amount of variation from town to town, let alone say from new Zealand to California.

When I was in we were constnatly discussing the differences between combat form and what we did. All the other issues those outside pick on are really not nearly as big as the fact that shields are indestructable. Tactics wise, the most effective forms are actually blends of Roman/Greek tactics involving pikes, halberds and shields with other weapons forms for specialized assaults.

Some are very aware of the differences and try to get closer as much as possible within the rules. Others are aware and choose to create thier own sport forms, and some just like to hit people hard. 
Keep in mind that as far as one on one bouts those were usually done in the tournament mileu and as such there were often regulations not very different form many SCA rules such as numbered blows or restricted strike zones. To be technical the SCA initially was intended to represent the high middle ages and the chivalric ideals of the tourney companies rather than the battlefield. The Company of Saint George founded by Brian Price truly was the epitomy of this ideal IMHO.

Which reminded me of this site of his:

http://www.chronique.com/

Wish he kept it going.

 

[Blackthorn]

You see, there's always limitations as to what you can do when you're a group primarily for display; my group have a very limited hit-zone specifically to prevent injury etc. because we're fighting with steel weapons in front of an audience. That and I'm still to be convinced on how 'easy' it is to injure someone in some areas, but I digress...
However, this doesn't mean I can't fight with other hit-zones... I'd actually say once you've fought with ANY hit-zone you can adapt fairly quickly (I'm actually at an advantage fighting with an expansive kill-zone, because I'm using a full-length flat-topped kite, which basically covers me chin to shin) as long as you've got the parrying skills, binding techniques etc. required. It's just a case of a few moments of ''what kills me again, oh, right... yeah...''

 

[brasidus]

As a father of two little ones who puts in a 50 hour work week sleep deprivation is a constant, and as such my posting clarity often suffers. 

I guess all I'm trying to say is stick with your training from ARMA while learning how to adhere to the local combat rules of the SCA. And as I am sure you realize you will have whole different view after being able to apply it to full contact melee scenarios and such.

I don't know what weapons you have, but I suggest making your SCA weeapons based upon real ones you have access to. Granted an SCA waster will never fully represent a steel blade anymore than the historical ones of wood and whalebone but they can be made to mimick the balance and feel fairly well if you put some effort into it.

 

[brasidus]

Just found this article from Brian that sums it all up nicely.
http://www.chronique.com/Library/Fighting/study.htm

 

[Merentha]

I guess all I'm trying to say is stick with your training from ARMA while learning how to adhere to the local combat rules of the SCA. And as I am sure you realize you will have whole different view after being able to apply it to full contact melee scenarios and such.

You know, I think I was trying to say that's exactly something I can do, while some SCA members just aren't so lucky.    Well, thank you for the advice there, I am excited to see how SCA combat actually works.

 

[Destichado]

*sigh* 

You know, I've been prejudiced against ARMA since before it changed itself from HACA, back when John Clements and J. Christoph Amberger were flaming the hell out of each other on Swordforum and their respective desciples carried on the battle and spread it over to Netsword.  I got sick of it all and said "screw you both and your groups too, I'm paying attention to AEMMA!"  That was... jeez, six or seven years ago now.  Maybe more.  And ever since I've listened closely to what's been coming out of WMA circles in the SCA, European reenactment groups, living history societies, online communities... while studiously ignoring ARMA.

Maybe I ought to get over it.    It seems like that era in the group's development is over.  Everyone I know who "also does" ARMA is great, and it seems like I'm the only one that remembers the old days.  Which, honestly, is probably for the best. 

 

[Merentha]

I'm sorry to hear that Destichado.  I'd like to state that Clement's ARMA-only zeal can get excessive, such as his devotion to keeping ARMA 'secrets' within ARMA alone.    I wasn't around then, so I don't know much of my group's inception.

So, back on the original topic-Pennsic?  Anyone?  What can I expect?  (I know its a year away, but still, I'm excited).

 

[matlid le sauvage]

as my name sergest i am that of whob is menthiond in blackthorns backstory i can not prove this unless asked buy him except the fact that  i am rather parinoied that he will think i am some one who has taken the info from the back story and worked the name out oh dear this dose sound like i am but thats just me as blackthorn should know and if you wher to look at the the poast about being obsest about re-inactment and the top 40 then blackthorn should be able to ges from that i am the quiet but insane girl that is part of the BSU and if he wishes cold mesage him and spout of many things that i and him self would only know just to prove it.
ok this dose sound realy bad but i am who i say i am i tipe more than i talk but hay dahhh

 

[Edward of Woodstock]

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Blackthorn, is she right?

 

[matlid le sauvage]

that is because only people who know me will know what im on about im not shure if blackthorn will but hay im not even shure half the time but i am genrly parinoied
blacthorn is in whales at the moment at uni and might not have the net just yet

apoliges for my teribal speling 

 

[Edward of Woodstock]

You killed him didn't you?

Just kidding.  Not really

 

[matlid le sauvage]

no of corce i did not i love him he is a brilant person
(brother siter type love not the bf gf type love)

 

[Merentha]

A bit of an update for my study group.  Essentially, without the rest of my ARMA group, I'm practicing entirely on my own for the longsword.  However, I did join the local SCA (kingdom of Aethelmarc, in case anyone cares) with the intent to be a spear fighter.  The longsword is just too poor a battlefield weapon when matched against sword/shield, a difference that is exacerbated by the SCA rules.  Also, I tend to be on the light, puny side, so the 7lb shield and the relatively stolid defense was not my style. 

The spear, on the other hand, I can do.  The hewing cuts are reminiscient of some longsword moves, and the block style of the spear comes relatively intuitively to me.  I need to overcompensate less, but I think I can live in the SCA.  The best part of the spear, though, is that I can snipe, and leap away really well.  I probably won't kill many sword/shielders, but I can keep them busy.  I'll need relatively light armor (I'm looking at leather, maybe with a chain haubergeon (I'll make it, which means I need a rivetting tool... ), but with that, I should be able to outlast most fighters.  My crosscountry background means I have endurance aplenty, so we'll see how that works.  Unfortunately, its hard to test at the moment, because the only loaner gear they have is a set of plates made for a 250 lb man (I'm a little over half that).  Needless to say, agility drops precipitously.  Someone is bringing chain next week, which should at least be less clunky.

I'm also considering archery.  I'm not a bad shot and am certified to teach it.  Unfortunately spear and bows don't tend to mix that well, so I'm thinking that buckler/roundshield and a sword is something I can also do.  The roundshield style tends to be more aggressive than the standard heater, which is preferable to me.  Also, if I get good with buckler/sword, I can wear the buckler while I'm spearfighting.

*sigh*  I just wish the lack of shincuts didn't make heater shields so damn good...