For those of you that love or hate archery in POP/Warband.

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We can debate all day about how strong archery is, but the fact of the matter is that Warband mechanics are not detailed enough to have anything realistic.

The biggest and most glaring issue is the "hitbox" mechanic that is common is most video games, because it works and is very optimized for performance on large scales. If a projectile (of any sort) hits the invisible "hitbox" polygon, then it triggered a damage method that does additional calculations. The problem here is that armor angles are not taken into account. My personal opinion is that at least half of the projectiles that hit armor in this game, should have been harmlessly reflected for zero damage.

For those of you that don't understand what I mean by "armor angles", please refer to my poopy paint example.
I have marked five hit locations as if a projectile has been shot/thrown/loosed from your perspective. On the right I have roughly drawn the angle of the projectile vs the armor. You will notice in examples A and B, the result will almost guarantee a deflection. In example C, it could go either way, depending on the weight, speed, and tip of the projectile. In examples D and E, the projectile would almost always result in sticking or piercing. (Depending once again on weight, speed, and tip.)

Armor%20Angles_zpshiwrsusg.jpg

Another issue that I hear often is about how easy and unrealistic it is to use bows. (in many different games) Your arrow supply, or instant regeneration or arrow supply is indeed something to think about. But pertaining to the "skill" of a bow user, I don't think things are unrealistic at all. In most cases.

Lars Anderson is a "trick shooter" that has spent years being a historian as well as an archer. He has tried to master old techniques that are not standard today. His videos and writings go into a lot of depth and can be highly educational and very impressive.

BUT, like all humans trying to make a living in today's society, he has made very dramatic statements and does a lot of things that piss of the archery/history community. He makes bold claims that are not 100% true and does impressive trick shots to prove things that don't really make sense in context. He is just trying to sell himself and get people talking and arguing. That's how you get more attention in order to get more views. This translates into more ad revenue and paid appearances. I don't blame him or his production.

At any rate, Both of these videos are highly educational and highly entertaining. And always remember to a take everything with a grain of salt.



If you haven't seen Lars Anderson's video, now is you chance.

Now, here is a great rebuttal video.
 
Deflection isn't all, there's also the issue of the the arrows's kinetic energy, which not only deforms the plate but also hurts a lot even if it doesn't pierce. An arrow shot from an average English bow lands with half the energy of a .22 or a Roman pilum. I think it's quite possible to break your neck if the arrow hits you in a bad angle. M&B's engine can't take all of that into account though.

Andersen is an actor. Even if his techniques were real they would have no use on a battlefield, where discipline, timing, and coordination are much more necessary for archers.
 
Very impressive personal skills, but when it comes to his theories...
Some of them sound quite reasonable like the opinion on quivers on the back. Others are not. My personal knowledge of the subject is too low to judge though, but I don't trust this guy. His overconfidence is suspicious.
 
Well, i do hope to see deflection in bannerlord. It is phisically interesting and would make sense for the arrows to deflect if they come at an angle say bigger than 45deg. The algorithm would be simple for a boolean function, calculate initial position, calculate target position at impact, is it < 30 then pierce, is it 30<x<45 then blunt is it >45 then deflect.  Is this actually chainmail? Then blunt at >60 angle, pierce at <60. Leather, cloth? pierce at any angle. The problem is the processor would have to calculate 2000 of this extra formulas in a battle, and the formula is not actually that simple, i don't know how trigonometry instructions address the processor but it's gotta weight for something, adding 3 more steps just for the true/false conclusion. Since i am not a programmer i have no idea what i just said, but deflection would be extremely interesting in such games, adding a natural penalty for shield bearers which is a must and also kinda fantasy rpg now when you carry a 2 ton shield made of lead and granite and still hit like a drunken monkey on coke. 

Currently i love archery in Pop. Tons of collectible bows for the little kid in me :grin:
 
I also love archery in PoP, but I have to admit it's ridiculously overpowered against armored opponents. Arrows piercing through heavy plating? Not likely.
 
A guy in the armor set we see on the picture would be pretty much impervious to arrows, even shot from short range from a warbow.  People tried to achieve sufficient penetration to wound or kill, and usually failed.

Let's just think about it - This thing costed a fortune.  It took a long time to make, it was very cumbersome to put on (you needed help), very uncomfortable to wear in hot weather, yet people still used it.  You had to fit it exactly to your body, and if you gained a few pounds, it wouldn't work or wear the same any more.  But when people used it, they didn't wear a shield - very cheap, disposable piece of equipment any carpenter could make.

Obviously, it worked.  Arrows could still be a problem, especially en mass.  They could hit the visor slit or hit some joints and even without penetration, they could jam a joint.  Going through and damaging a person inside is not what usually happened, not with high end full plate articulated armors.

With that said, there was an arrowhead in use especially designed to hit plate, because it was pretty much blunt.  You wouldn't use it against anything else, which implies that there was at least some chance of going through.  I still don't believe that the chance was large, or that it would do massive damage even when it went through, but since it existed it must have been good for something.

But the thing is, most people on the battlefield could not afford such armor.  It was really expensive.

Regarding Lars Andersen - I don't think he says anything wrong.  We really forgot that you could shoot a bow very fast.    He tried to do this, and he found out how it was done.  Now suddenly some ancient pictures make sense.  Holding several arrows in the hand and using oversized noks, for example.  Earlier I would think it was some weird way of painting, now I tend to think that the painter accurately depicted an important detail.

Not so long ago when Avatar movie came around I read on archery forums that shooting from the wrong side would never work.  Andersen does it and it obviously works. Then people say that only some weak bows could be shot like that.  No, not true.  As it happens, very quick draw is the most efficient, so if you want to go for max distance you need to shoot fast.  That's what flight-shooters do. 

There are those people who try to be "professional skeptics".  Like it's a club or what, and you earn your membership card by not believing in something.  Nothing Lars does defies the laws of physics, it's just a matter of extraordinary skill achieved through years of intensive training.  Other people achieve similar results in other venues.
 
Das Knecht said:
So let's go with every Lars' claim being "disproved" here.

1.  Shooting from the "wrong" side of the bow.
  Like I wrote already, when the Avatar movie appeared I searched archery forums to figure out if this way of shooting was correct.  The absolutely overwhelming consensus was, that it would never work in reality, only in the movie.  Lars shoots like this and connects.  The pictures he finds to support his way of shooting at the very last hint that this way of shooting could have been used in history.

Summing it all up:  Either he did not rediscover anything and it was all known before, or what he claims is all wrong, and people never shot a bow like that. 

They make both claims in the video.  Which is nonsense.  You can't say that what he proposes was both known and is wrong.  (But to be absolutely fair, they rather claim that "physics" will not allow to shoot like that.  Well, I'm reasonably trained in physics and I do understand what archer's paradox is and how various methods of release affect it.  Lars' way of shooting does not violate any laws of physics I'm aware of.)

2.  The sources are wrong.
  Maybe they are.  But they are sources.  Much better than "we have no sources, but we are "skeptics", which obviously means we are right" attitude.  And if you want to be a cool kid, join us! :wink:

3.  Sources showing the conventional way of shooting contradict what Lars is showing.
  No, they do not.  He says you can shoot a bow both ways.  One is faster than the other, but it's not like what became a convention has no benefits.  He does not claim any of this.

4.  Trickshots shown are not practical, at least some of them.
  Whoah!  That's so incredibly groundbreaking! :wink:

5.  Saying that he's wrong, because he refers to right and left side of the bow, instead of dominant eye side of the bow, and, well, the other one, I guess...
  No comments.

I'm done with it.  They might be right here or there, I'm not saying Lars made no mistakes, but I say let's be skeptical especially about skeptics.  They should love it! 
 
There is only one proper response to Andersen's video:
Epicrules said:
Jesus christ, not this Lars Andersen crap again.

But less proper replies can be given too.

[quote author=bakters]The sources are wrong.[/quote]
Sources are never wrong, what can be wrong are the claims we make based on them. These claims can be sober and follow scientific methodology, more or less like Anna Maltese does in her video, or they can be complete bull**** like Lars Andersen's.

It's not a matter of looking cool for bashing him or for being a skeptic, as you said in the posts above. Andersen attacked our practice with unproven claims, it is only natural that we respond.

But people can believe whatever they want.
 
i think, shooting style or kind of bow you use depends on culture and how you use that bow
long bows will be useless on horses, short will be worth nothing on siege etc.

take a look at kyudo - Japaneese archers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2EnemzBpk - they specialazied in very long shoots - one shot, one life...

other thing is power use to aim - when mounted you can't use a lot of it, so bows must be fast with very short aim, as thats allow you to shoot faster with minimal use of power - imagine that you have to shoot for a 15min. constantly and after that fight with a sword, using same hand...

 
clock4orange said:
i think, shooting style or kind of bow you use depends on culture and how you use that bow
long bows will be useless on horses, short will be worth nothing on siege etc.

take a look at kyudo - Japaneese archers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2EnemzBpk - they specialazied in very long shoots - one shot, one life...

other thing is power use to aim - when mounted you can't use a lot of it, so bows must be fast with very short aim, as thats allow you to shoot faster with minimal use of power - imagine that you have to shoot for a 15min. constantly and after that fight with a sword, using same hand...

Yes and that's the point, there isn't only one truth in archery. For example: bows are a cultural item and they vary according to their respective cultures. A Mongol bow, and consequently a Mongol shooting style, would not work in England because of their weather, since rain and humidity are extremely harmful to that kind of bow. The yew tree used to make English longbows, on the other hand, isn't native to Mongolia. Some American natives shoot their bows with their feet, and so on. There isn't only one correct way to kill people with arrows.

 
saerossaeros said:
[quote author=bakters]The sources are wrong.
Sources are never wrong, what can be wrong are the claims we make based on them. These claims can be sober and follow scientific methodology, more or less like Anna Maltese does in her video, or they can be complete bull**** like Lars Andersen's.

It's not a matter of looking cool for bashing him or for being a skeptic, as you said in the posts above. Andersen attacked our practice with unproven claims, it is only natural that we respond.

But people can believe whatever they want.
[/quote]So what claims Lars makes, which are obviously wrong?  Or at the very least probably wrong?

Let's follow the procedure and come up with verifiable conclusions.

(On a sidenote, overwhelmingly negative response from archery community seems to me to be mostly social in its roots, not factual.  He said you guys do things wrong, so he ruffled some feathers.  But if you guys claim that "proper procedure" will show him to be wrong instead, let's go with it.)
 
^^lol you misunderstand, this isn't a debate. Andersen made a series of unprovable claims, and until he has managed to provide evidence for stuff like "I've rediscovered the forgotten ancient and true way of archery and I'm showing it in this video", there's no point in discussing this. Proving categorical stuff like that from manuscripts and fragmentary historical records is notoriously problematic and has been attempted for centuries, without success, which is why we don't say any of that in the first place.

If anyone is interested in this sort of thing, there's a Canadian researcher who travelled the world doing what Andersen should have in the first place: meeting tribal archers and documenting different archery traditions, from Mongolia to North America and Finland. She's also one of the Hollywood archery consultants Andersen claims to be wrong: www.lykopis.com/epicarcher/

 
The fact is that Lars has stated (paraphrasing) that:
1. Shooting from the Left/Right side of the bow (depending on what hand you use) so that the arrow is notched on the same side as you pull, is better in every way while requiring more training
2. Holding arrows in the draw hand is the end-goal of every archer.
3. That this is the way that it used to be.
4. Also that he has rediscovered it.

These are generally the issues that people have:
1. Is it faster? Physically, yes, it requires less movement, so in most cases it is potentially faster, assuming the person has trained to draw that way. Is it better in every way? That really depends on the context, doesn't it? Only the Sith deals in absolutes.
2. Historical evidence has shown that some archers drew arrows one-by-one from bags, some from quivers, some held them in the bow hand, some held them in the draw hand. Most of all, archers used combinations of all four of these. Many English longbowmen even stuck their arrows in the ground. The way Lars is presenting this information is completely opinion based.
3. History is full of information that we cannot draw factual conclusions from. That is just a given. We can only find strong evidence and then say "This is what happened, according to this list of supporting content". Lars can't really say that, as his evidence is flimsy under critique.
4. Saying that he has "rediscovered" anything is just marketing himself. All of the things he has presented have been studied and practiced by archers throughout the world. Lars has just done a good job at production and branding. Imagine if you are part of a long family line of Shoe-Makers, and you made your shoes with X material. If someone came along and make a popular and entertaining video, then said they had rediscovered making shoes with X material, long lost to the ages, it would feel like a slap in the face to you.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Lars, and I think he has a lot of merit and I agree with him for the most part. I just think he has stepped on a lot of toes.

 
1.  No, he does not say this.  He says things like, "more natural", "more fun" and also "ultimately better" but within the context of shooting in motion.  Which it probably is.

2.  Where does he say it?

3.  He says, "once this technique was widespread, and Syrrian artwork shows that it's at least 5K years old".  I consider it at least possible, maybe even likely.

4.  Yes, he says he learned it himself.  Can you say that somebody taught him how to do it?  Or that it was known before at all?  Or that this way of shooting was never used?  Because if it really was used in the past, he did rediscover it, and he deserves full credit for his work.

He does not say that peed shooting is the only way of shooting a bow.  He obviously agrees that conventional way has advantages when shooting at stationary targets.  Like a deer, for example...

Rediscovered shoemaking?  Something trivial, known to every shoemaker since forever till now?  So who knew you could shoot like Lars?  Show me those shoemakers.
 
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