Resolved Fix the damn peace/tribute balance.

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1.5.3
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Doofus

Sergeant

This will probably be the last night I play for a while. The only way I can think of to win at middle settings (easy instead of easiest) while having my own kingdom is to assassinate every lord I can find. If thats what you want us to do you should have called this the Homicidal Maniac game.

The above printout shows my current diplomacy screen. I'm destroying the Battanians. I took their largest settlement (Seonon). They've lost almost 1/2 their armies. I have 12 prisoners to their none. The only thing they lead in is being dickheads (raids). But it would cost ME 2300 tribute per day to make peace with them? My assumption is its because the Casualties Inflicted numbers are being attributed to the wrong kingdom. This has been reported before. This should be A) an easy fix and B) a high priority.

This is even more important because as soon as you take a castle or town someone next to you will declare war, almost immediately unless you can put a couple hundred defenders in the castle/town within about 5 minutes. No one can afford to carry a couple hundred extra soldiers around. I'm currently at war with Battania, Vlandia, and Aserai. I started my own kingdom by taking a castle from Battania. Then a town, etc. I now have 4 of their towns and maybe a half dozen of their castles. But after taking their first town the Aserai started declaring war. After taking the 2nd the Western Empire joined in. After taking the 3rd the Vlandians joined in. Now, the last couple wars, within about 2 hours game time of the Battanians declaring war on me the Aserai declare war. Once I take something the Vlandians jump in within a day. The only reason the Western Empire hasn't joined in yet is because they were at war with the Battanians. They made peace a few hours ago (game time) and I assume they'll join in soon. It wouldn't be so bad if I could put a hurting on them and get a peace declaration out of them, but the way it currently stands, putting a hurting on them just costs me more money instead of costing them.
 
I was wrong. For some reason it was the Southern Empire who declared on me instead of the Western, even though they aren't even close to bordering me. Still the 4 on 1 I would expect. Holding my own, but would cost me about 10k to end it with everyone. Here's the current status with Battania. http://prntscr.com/uy5dwo I've decided before I quit tonight I'll take the rest of their holdings, just because I'm pissed. That will be 5 more castles/towns and I imagine by the time I've taken them all it will probably cost me 10k to get peace with just them because they will be dominating me so badly.
 
@Doofus so it definitely working as intended, but it’s hard to tell because there’s no real indicator. But essentially what is happening is other kingdoms aggression on you is based on how strong you are. That strength is determined by the number of troops you have but what you don’t see counting is the how that strength stacks up against the number of fiefs you have. So because you have so many fiefs but below 2k strength you are an easy target to the AI and will be war decc’d until your strength and the number of fiefs you have is at a stable point.

Making peace doesn’t count most of the stats in the war scene, that tribute is essentially what you have to pay if YOU want peace, the battanians would have to pay you if they wanted peace, it definitely confusing because it almost makes it seem like the status of a war and because you’d have to pay you are losing but it’s more like wanting peace makes you the loser so you have to pay, not the actual status of the war. You can get paid through tribute if you offer peace once they the enemy thinks you are too strong (more troops/clans) for them to handle or you've lost enough fiefs that you don't look as weak anymore.

So what do you do? Stop taking more fiefs (counter-intuitively it makes you "weaker"), you now need to start recruiting other clans until your strength is enough to make the AI not consider you weak. The easiest way is to try to persuade lords that have no fiefs as they are the cheapest to recruit. Make sure to give them at least a castle to keep them around. Once you get your strength up in comparison to your total amount of fiefs they should start to leave you alone
 
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To a certain extent, I don't even mind the 'everyone join in! Its a gangbang" mentality of the kingdoms. That at least makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the prize fighter getting up in the 12th round with a broken nose, missing teeth, without the strength to even lift his arms, saying 'I got him right where I want him. He's tiring.' They all join in on me if they want, but I should be able to beat the crap out of one and force him to concede without making him rich. I also liked it better when lords with no fiefs went looking for someone with plenty. I can't go hunting for lords when I constantly have to defend my territory. Anyways, as I said, I'm done for a while. Enjoy your game.
 
I play on maxed out difficulty without exploting smithing or other exploits, and currently own half the map, have 30 parties under my command, am stronger than any other kingdom, and still happily pay the Khuzait 4000 denars per day for peace. I'm super nice to everyone, never behead any lord. My kingdom and my fiefs were rarely a target for anyone, because everyone loves me so damn much they don't really want war with me or burn down my villages.
I never had a multi-front war until very recently. And when it happened, I immediately paid. Happily.
Thing is: When I take a town from a kingdom, that's at least ~2500 denars less daily income ls for them, and more for me. That means I can immediately pay 2500 denars per day as tribute and we're still breaking even financially. I'm not making them richer. Capture 2 towns, and 'only' paying 4k tribute per day is a big financial win for me!

Think of it as anti-snowballing: If a kingdom has lost a town to you, then they're already down 2.5k per day in income to you - paying you another 2.5k per day for peace, or accepting the loss for a long time would be utterly silly for them, it makes their position and recovery worse when they're already losing. You'd be snowballing super hard.

So when all other kingdoms declare war on me, I immediately pay all but one of them the maximum price for peace - they can financially pretend they have an extra town, but when we go to war next time, their extra income will stop immediately - they cannot sustain the war - and I'll have the ground, the castles, the defender's advantage, the hundreds of free militias they have to waste their armies on to actually gain the assets back. They also have a much harder time keeping their lords on their side due to a lack of fiefs to assign. So getting paid for peace while having lost a fief, even if it's a financial win for them, results in a terrible, terrible strategic situation for them once the next war starts.

The remaining one gets crushed with all the might of my empire - my villages don't get raided in a multi-front-war, the conquered towns pay the tribute twofold, and I'm richer and mightier than ever before, while paying the others a meager tribute of a few thousand denars per day.

Payoff analysis goes roughly like this:

I have 30 parties and 20 towns
Sturgia declared war, has 9 parties and 1 castle, and wants 1k per day for peace
Battania declared war, has 21 parties and 1 town and wants 2.5k per day for peace
Aserai declared war, has 40 parties and 20 towns and wants 4k per day for peace
Khuzait declared war, has 50 parties and 24 towns and wants 4k per day for peace
Western Empire declared war, has 15 parties and 6 towns and wants 2k per day for peace.

Continuing war with Sturgia can only earn me 1 castle, which is chump change. I have nothing to gain by fighting them, so I pay immediately.
Continuing war with Battania can only earn me 1 town. Again, I have nothing to gain by fighting them versus how much it would cost me to wage war, so I pay immediately.
Continuing war with Aserai or Kuzait each would be dicey since they're so powerful each. Much to gain, but it's not guaranteed that I'll actually realize those gains instead of just getting a hundred villages burnt down, so I pay immediately.
Continuing war with the Western Empire would be certain victory for me due to overwhelming numbers, and if I capture their 6 wealthy towns each earning 3k/day income, that war would gain me 18k income per day - which is more than the 11.5k per day the other parties want as price for looking away and letting me grab those 6 towns. No risk, high reward - a reward that is lessened by the price the other kingdoms demand for looking away while the Western Empire disappears, but in the end, I come out stronger and richer than before. I pay a share of my gains instead of trying to fight a 5-front war and losing way more in income by burning villages and losing fiefs because I can't defend everywhere.
And I won't be paying that share for long, because you know when the Western Empire is gone, those Aserai towns suddenly start looking very, very tasty....

All of this happened as described - everyone looked away, the Western Empire got gulped up into mine and ended up offering a lot of tribute for peace - which I of course denied, because what's 3k denars per day when you can get 3 towns with a combined income of 9k per day because you still have the upper hand? Meanwhile, the Aserai and the Khuzait got bored but... didn't want to give up all the tribute they got from me, so they went and fought and weakened each other, and now are ripe for the picking....and that's what the tribute bought me. 11.5k short-term tribute for 18k long-term income, one permanentely destroyed adversary, and two weakened remaining adversaries? A great trade!

In your case, Seonon is worth more than 2.3k tribute per day. Even if you pay that, you have decisively won the war, militarily and financially, and you can happily pay that, and Battania will not be likely to attack you in the time to come, and as soon as they do -> you have 2.3k more money in wartime, and they less. Getting 2.3k tribute from you is a terrible trade for them. Pay it and focus on taking the next town from someone else!

That the AI kingdoms always accept a tribute instead of declining and continueing to gang up and take fiefs is the really gamebreaking thing. Getting paid a tribute for peace when you could take land instead is a terrible, terrible trade, and the current prices are laughable for avoiding a multi-front war.

They declaring war together is a smart move. Them accepting a tribute for peace is a terrible, terrible move. The money is worth absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. I doesn't make them 'rich' at all, contrary, it puts them in a terrible strategic position for the forseeable future.
 
Thank you, Butters, for that explanation. Of course all this should be in the discussion forum, not bugs, but I'll take good ideas where I find them.
+1

Now, shut up about the terrible, terrible mistake the AI is making - TW might be listening! And in another year, in EA version 3.8.7 we could find ourselves in 5-front wars we can't buy our way out of!
 
Meh, I like dumb AI's.
Make me feel smarter.

I'm more wondering why this thread showed up on top of the list for me to post a stupid reply in when all the previous posts were months old.
Doesn't make me feel smarter.
 
Hi, I will mark the issue as resolved. If you encounter the same one in the latest version, please let me know. Thanks!
 
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