Fix Cavalry Charge

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hrhi260

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The cavalry charge is lame, there is no other way to describe it, they charge at the enemy and then regroup which takes like 30 seconds, they literally go to the other side of the map and then charge again, and when do they charge, they just die since they are weak as hell, what's more annoying is when the enemy is retreating and i order the cavalry to attack they get like 3 kills, and then regroup again.. can't they just keep attacking? it's so stupid to see them riding beside the enemy and instead of attacking they go to to the other side of the map to charge at them again it's just frustrating to see they don't even swing their weapons even though there is an enemy unit right beside them, cavalry are the weakest and the game and the most useless, cavalry archers are way better and at least do their job right. because they constantly attack the enemy.

The cavalry needs to be fixed, the way they attack when they attack, and their charge. right now it's not even worth having any cavalry in my opinion.
 
While I do agree with cavalry feels weak currently, not sure if making cavalry units to stay in melee will make them better.
 
While I do agree with cavalry feels weak currently, not sure if making cavalry units to stay in melee will make them better.
I think the issue also has to do with the fact that cav can't properly fight in melee and they tend to get easily stuck, even without infantry tight formations, so they get massive damage because it's a big hitbox. It's also because of the mechanics of Bannerlord where every bot runs to attack and relentlessly swings or thrusts at the same time, this also happens when you are facing several opponents at the same time on the ground, even though they are on a "train", they all attack at once a deal instant massive damage.

96740031.jpg

I think @Terco_Viejo has talked about this "train" issue and provided some well though and tested suggestions to devs about the issue of cavalry charge.
This whole thread focuses on the AI's behaviour when operating as infantry; however the cavalry would need a review as well.

One of the first "eyebrow raises" I did, was because of this gif belonging to the Dev Blog 14/02/18.

blog_post_77_taleworldswebsite_03.gif

Here the charge seemed much more powerful than it is currently manifested in the Native
In the discussion thread, I wrote a comment indicating that there was a confluence of the cavalry charge at the central point of the group being charged. Obviously, at that time we didn't have access to the game and therefore it was all conjecture.

Well, just as the infantry is prone to charge at the central point of the group being charged; the cavalry in its absence follows the same pattern.

9LS4w.jpg

Imo a cavalry charge should charge offensively parallel to the defensive line of an enemy formation as indicated by the colour green. This mid-point charge attempt should only be achieved by a wedge charge (maintaining the shape of the formation and a certain parallel). As with infantry, when a charge is ordered, the formation loses its integrity (what use are the formations in such a case?).

On the other hand, what is a cavalry charge?


Speed and momentum of a real cavalry charge demonstration

In theory it is a manoeuvre consisting of a massive, impetuous and resolute attack by a troop against the enemy troop. Well, as the charges are defined in the Native, we do not find "the massive" or "the impetuous" but rather "a walking in the park". In my opinion the cavalry charges are extremely slow and without high impact.

Once again I have been fiddling with the parameters and have altered a few resulting in the following:

NativeModified


An increase in HP, speed and horse charge damage (for the test I have taken the Imperial charger breed) (* increased rein rotation too). In contrast, an increase in damage multiplier for the animal, an increase in fall damage for the rider and a more aggressive setting for the rear.This results in a considerable casualty impact for the object of charge, but also in casualties for the horses when they charge forward into a wall of spears. However, charging from the rear or the flanks to an enemy formation with these modifications would be lethal.

NativeModified
hit_points="100"
absorbed_damage_ratio="1.0"
body_capsule radius="0.37"
bipedal_delta_rotation_threshold_for_keeping_local_velocity" value="2.5"
QuadrupedalRadius" value="0.8"
MakesRearAttackDamageThreshold" value="10.0"
FallSpeedReductionMultiplierForRiderDamage" value="0.77"
speed="44" charge_damage="12"

hit_points="400"
absorbed_damage_ratio="5.0"
body_capsule radius="0.40"
bipedal_delta_rotation_threshold_for_keeping_local_velocity" value="2.5"
QuadrupedalRadius" value="1.0"
MakesRearAttackDamageThreshold" value="0.1"
FallSpeedReductionMultiplierForRiderDamage" value="0.95"
speed="80" charge_damage="90"

As is also the case with infantry, the cavalry is slightly crowded; therefore the spacing in the formations has been slightly increased. As @Apocal comments in his thread, Taleworlds should consider the spawns grouped together in a formation with a large volume of agents when they are carried out in narrow environments. Otherwise, the typical "cliff suicide" accident occurs.

These changes for the cavalry would make it a devastating weapon against the enemy with a strategic approach, but with "carefree" employment would lead to a resounding decimation of allied troops. Making horses a valuable war asset.


And yet again, devs don't seem interested to fix things or communicate their opinions and decisions.
They just yeet our feedback and suggestions
 
For me, the issue is not about cavalry being actually too weak, and it is about how much slow is cavalry at killing compared to archers and infantry. You just have to make a test, use 100 legionaries to fight an army, and then use 100 Khuzait Lancers to fight the same army. Despite of the result (Legionaries are going to perform better for sure), you can see the huge difference in terms of battle duration. Infantry vs Infantry engagements last for seconds while Cavalry vs Cavalry or Cavalry vs infantry battles last for a lot of minutes.

Why is this relevant, well, what usually happens is that 100 legionaries are enough to win a battle, but if you get 50 legionaries and 50 Heavy Lancers to face the same army, your 50 legionaries are going to be outnumbered and killed in seconds while your cavalry just kill 5-6 enemies in the first charge, and after your infantry has been defeated in seconds, then your cavalry also gets outnumbered and killed after some time.
 
Horse archers are the same bul****, when I ask them to follow me to pursue the retreating enemies, I made more kils than my all 20 horses archers, and they are close to me.
 
I think the issue also has to do with the fact that cav can't properly fight in melee and they tend to get easily stuck, even without infantry tight formations, so they get massive damage because it's a big hitbox. It's also because of the mechanics of Bannerlord where every bot runs to attack and relentlessly swings or thrusts at the same time, this also happens when you are facing several opponents at the same time on the ground, even though they are on a "train", they all attack at once a deal instant massive damage.

96740031.jpg

I think @Terco_Viejo has talked about this "train" issue and provided some well though and tested suggestions to devs about the issue of cavalry charge.


And yet again, devs don't seem interested to fix things or communicate their opinions and decisions.
They just yeet our feedback and suggestions

Wow, first and for all thanks for all the info, it's a great help.
secondly, kinda sad the devs aren't interested in fixing things related to their game.. i mean are they even looking at our suggestions? or what.
 
Wow, first and for all thanks for all the info, it's a great help.
secondly, kinda sad the devs aren't interested in fixing things related to their game.. i mean are they even looking at our suggestions? or what.
Some devs look more than others, in general don't think they care much about feedback and suggestions. What annoys me is that the issues are talked over and over and there is no answer from devs. A simple "we'll look into it later on, we are busy at the moment" would be fine, but many times they just don't see the threads and replies or just ignore us.
 
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