Europa Universalis IV released!

[harlehus]

Nah, but I'm also not sure ignorance is a good excuse.

What ignorance?

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Like say you don't know about the Holocaust and you make a ****ty Holocaust joke or some meme related to it, does that somehow mean that you won't be pissing off a bunch of people with that joke or meme?

So what I mean is that your ignorance as to why "Remove All Kebabs" is maybe not the best joke/meme for an official forum, doesn't magically mean it's not a potentially offensive joke anymore.

Basically, you're looking at this too much with the perspective of "my memes/banter matter" when the moderators are only looking at it from the "this is potentially racist/insulting, so we better remove it before problems start" point of view.

 

[harlehus]

Again though, you're not going to be able to make a good case to any company by saying "it's just banter/memes bro!" (because as I explained, they really don't care, they main concern is not in letting you express yourself but rather in ensuring they don't potentially lose customers due to potentially offensive banter/memes on their official forums being seen as being accepted or supported by the company/moderation).

I am not making this case, and you could see this if the discussion hadn't been deleted. I'm making the case that by limiting the freedom of speech and acting very brute and ruthless on the side of the moderators you are devaluating your brand since people will think less of you due to this undesirable conduct of business.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Again, I think you're a bit out of touch with reality if you think that's really going to happen.

I know "freedom of speech" is the new rage for internet forums (has been for a while) but most people don't really care if you aren't allowed to post "Ottoman = Kebab" on a forum.

 

[harlehus]

Like say you don't know about the Holocaust and you make a ****ty Holocaust joke or some meme related to it, does that somehow mean that you won't be pissing off a bunch of people with that joke or meme?

So what I mean is that your ignorance as to why "Remove All Kebabs" is maybe not the best joke/meme for an official forum, doesn't magically mean it's not a potentially offensive joke anymore.

Basically, you're looking at this too much with the perspective of "my memes/banter matter" when the moderators are only looking at it from the "this is potentially racist/insulting, so we better remove it before problems start" point of view.

No i just don't believe that by using 'Kebab' instead of the Ottoman Empire people are referring to this so-called racist meme.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Sure, but again, moderators are always going to go with the least risky option.

People might not be referencing the Bosnian genocide by using said meme, but the chance that they are or that people will connect the dots, means that moderators, from a PR/company point of view, have a very easy choice to make.

 

[harlehus]

Again, I think you're a bit out of touch with reality if you think that's really going to happen.

I know "freedom of speech" is the new rage for internet forums (has been for a while) but most people don't really care if you aren't allowed to post "Ottoman = Kebab" on a forum.

I think you are outright wrong here seeing how much attention this subject has gotten on the forums. People do care. A lot. (Actually this is the most controversial post on reddit/eu4 right now)Maybe you don't because you are mostly here on the Taleworlds forum. This is why I'm frustrated that the post got deleted on the forum where people actually care about this phenomenon.

 

[harlehus]

Sure, but again, moderators are always going to go with the least risky option.

People might not be referencing the Bosnian genocide by using said meme, but the chance that they are or that people will connect the dots, means that moderators, from a PR/company point of view, have a very easy choice to make.

I don't see it like this. Either way you're gonna push customers away so it's basically up to you to deside whether you support freedom of speech or not.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

I think you are outright wrong here seeing how much attention this subject has gotten on the forums. People do care. A lot. Maybe you don't because you are mostly here on the Taleworlds forum. This is why I'm frustrated that the post got deleted on the forum where people actually care about this phenomenon.

I do frequent other parts of the internet, so I'd argue I'm not speaking from a TW point of view.

I'm sure people care enough to post, but what's interesting is behavior, will people actually boycott the Paradox forums because they can't make "Ottoman = Kebab" jokes? Will people stop buying Paradox games because they can't make "Ottoman = Kebab" jokes?

I mean, let's look at you personally, are you never going to buy a Paradox game again because they deleted your post? Because that's the type of behavior a large number of people need to engage in for it to be a loss to Paradox.

I don't see it like this. Either way you're gonna push customers away so it's basically up to you to deside whether you support freedom of speech or not.

Again, I don't think you have much experience from either a company or moderator point of view.

I'd also argue if you were right, then we'd see every major game company loosen up moderation to encourage freedom of speech, but if anything the opposite is true (if you've spent anytime around the internet, you should have noticed that there are much, much more stricter forums than Paradox or TW for far more successful games).

 

[Untitled.]

I think most forum-rage is pretty inconsequential and a matter most people forget within a few weeks.

As a matter of fact, forum censorship was a pretty big deal on TWF at some point as well.

2 ninjas

 

[ModusTollens]

As soon as freedom of speech is mentioned I'm reminded of xkcd: Free Speech

 

[harlehus]

I do frequent other parts of the internet, so I'd argue I'm not speaking from a TW point of view.

I'm sure people care enough to post, but what's interesting is behavior, will people actually boycott the Paradox forums because they can't make "Ottoman = Kebab" jokes? Will people stop buying Paradox games because they can't make "Ottoman = Kebab" jokes?

I mean, let's look at you personally, are you never going to buy a Paradox game again because they deleted your post? Because that's the type of behavior a large number of people need to engage in for it to be a loss to Paradox.

It's obvious that this one instant won't change anything. But if similar things happen over and over again, and they are, it will provoce a reaction. The way they handled this whole situation together with other very bad intances of censorship I'm seriously considering not supporting Paradox Interactive anymore. But since i believe you should keep game and politics separated i probably will not.

(if you've spent anytime around the internet, you should have noticed that there are much, much more stricter forums than Paradox or TW for far more successful games).

This is a vague argument. Just because there are worse forums regarding freedom of speech, it's allright that Paradox and TW is bad?

 

[Úlfheðinn]

This is a vague argument. Just because there are worse forums regarding freedom of speech, it's allright that Paradox and TW is bad?

No.

It's not vague, I'm saying that if you were right, and a large number of user's cared about "freedom of speech" on forums, then several major game developers would have had to change how they moderate their forums by this point (as these forums are far stricter in enforcing "offensive posting" than either Paradox or TW).

Take TW, if there was a serious loss in revenue because of moderation, don't you think the developers would do something about it?

 

[harlehus]

This is a vague argument. Just because there are worse forums regarding freedom of speech, it's allright that Paradox and TW is bad?

No.

It's not vague, I'm saying if you were right, and a large number of user's cared about "freedom of speech" on forums, several major game developers would have had to change how they moderate their forums by this point (as these forums are far stricter in enforcing "offensive posting" than either Paradox or TW).

No. This is a different point that is more valid that i deliberately did not quote you for .

 

[Úlfheðinn]

My original post:

I'd also argue if you were right, then we'd see every major game company loosen up moderation to encourage freedom of speech, but if anything the opposite is true (if you've spent anytime around the internet, you should have noticed that there are much, much more stricter forums than Paradox or TW for far more successful games).

I'm not sure what you're not understanding, given it's exactly the same point I just clarified.

 

[harlehus]

Take TW, if there was a serious loss in revenue because of moderation, don't you think the developers would do something about it?

How do you test this though? Who's to say there isn't a serious loss of revenue due to poor moderation.

 

[harlehus]

My original post:

I'd also argue if you were right, then we'd see every major game company loosen up moderation to encourage freedom of speech, but if anything the opposite is true (if you've spent anytime around the internet, you should have noticed that there are much, much more stricter forums than Paradox or TW for far more successful games).

I'm not sure what you're not understanding, given it's exactly the same point I just clarified.

First point you're making is that moderation is getting stricter within the forums of most major gaming companies. This might be valid, I don't have the adequate knowledge to test its validity.

Second point you make(indirectly) is that because there are more strict companies out there Paradox and TW is not that bad.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Nah, you're not reading carefully enough.

My entire argument has been:

1) Game developers are risk averse (they are cautious in regards to what could potentially offend people)

2) If being less strict was beneficial in regards to forum moderation, most major game developers should be less strict (again they are risk averse, if they even thought that moderating posts was leading to a significant loss of revenue, they would be quick to change their approach)

3) If you look at other major game developers they often moderate their forums even more strictly than TW or Paradox

So in regards to point #3:

Second point you make(indirectly) is that because there are more strict companies out there Paradox and TW is not that bad.

You're misunderstanding my point.

The whole point of mentioning that there are stricter forums was to suggest that "freedom of speech" may not be as important as you think (as there are forums that are far stricter than the two forums you find to be oppressive). It wasn't to suggest that TW and Paradox are doing fine with their moderation because others are more strict.

 

[harlehus]

Nah, you're not reading carefully enough.

My entire argument has been:

1) Game developers are risk averse (they are cautious in regards to what could potentially offend people)

2) If being less strict was beneficial in regards to forum moderation, most major game developers should be less strict (again they are risk averse, if they even thought that moderating posts was leading to a significant loss of revenue, they would be quick to change their approach)

3) If you look at other major game developers they often moderate their forums even more strictly than TW or Paradox

So in regards to point #3:

Second point you make(indirectly) is that because there are more strict companies out there Paradox and TW is not that bad.

You're misunderstanding my point.

The whole point of mentioning that there are stricter forums was to suggest that "freedom of speech" may not be as important as you think (as there are forums that are far stricter than the two forums you find to be oppressive). It wasn't to suggest that TW and Paradox are doing fine with their moderation because others are more strict.

Okay so maybe i misunderstood your point or maybe you phrased it poorly. Probably both. But this is less important.
Still my question remains: How do you test this though? Who's to say there isn't a serious loss of revenue due to poor moderation.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

How do you test this though? Who's to say there isn't a serious loss of revenue due to poor moderation.

Probably more of a question for a marketing person, but I'd assume the easiest way would be random surveys of players combined with looking at the metrics related to game sales and stuff like Steam numbers (hours played within a period of time and number of players). Depending on the game (usually MMORPGs) you can also collect exit surveys (that ask for example why you stopped playing).

Of course, there's no way of knowing 100% for certain, but most companies, especially thanks to Steam can get some pretty solid amounts of data.