Elden ring is thrash, please release a new update

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with bosses tailored to "counter" the player rather than offering an experience.

Dark Souls was about "hard but fair", with the difficulty as a mere tool so that the player feels accomplishment when he succeed. But I feel like the serie has veered toward "we're reknown for the difficulty of our games, so we should make them even more difficult", and from the DLC of Dark Souls 3 onward it started to take a toll on the fun. Sekiro was over-the-top hard, and Elden Ring requires less reflexes than Sekiro, but doubled down on the "punishing" aspect.
Don't know what Miyazaki smoked when he said that the game was "more accessible and more people will finish it", but it's the exact opposite of reality.
I am unsure why you believe that, but i have yet to have seen a boss that has nothing to counter. A lot of bosses do attacks that can be very punishing and the game's roll system ensures you dodge magic or hits even if it clearly hits you.

There hasn't been a boss where i said to myself that he was designed with no counters.
 
I am unsure why you believe that, but i have yet to have seen a boss that has nothing to counter. A lot of bosses do attacks that can be very punishing and the game's roll system ensures you dodge magic or hits even if it clearly hits you.

There hasn't been a boss where i said to myself that he was designed with no counters.
Wat ?
 
You say the bosses are tailored to "counter" the player, when they are absolutely not. The game is still hard but fair, i diagnose you with skill issue
If you don't see the countless design points where the bosses ARE made to counter the player, then I diagnose you with braindeadness issue.
The "git gud"-like retarded answer being a common correlated symptom, so I guess the prognosis is safe.
 
then I diagnose you with braindeadness issue.
Dude you just outplayed yourself...
Elden ring do not push player in any specific way to fight bosses, which is very nice from player perspective. You just being silly...
 
If you don't see the countless design points where the bosses ARE made to counter the player, then I diagnose you with braindeadness issue.
The "git gud"-like retarded answer being a common correlated symptom, so I guess the prognosis is safe.
The bosses are made to KILL the player. FromSoftware has not designed as far as i know a system where bosses will adjust their attacks or patterns according to the build the player has taken. A boss will not run away from a player and only shoot because the player is a melee build.

Git gud is a good argument because as mention before, the game ENCOURAGES exploration and leveling up if you can't get past a boss. Almost all if not all major bosses are placed in a way that after they are finished, they unlock a greater part of the map which gives the player the option to go to the next boss, see the boss is pretty strong, and have the possibility to explore the new unlocked area.

Are you sure you played dark souls? Because dark souls was very much not linear and offered the player to explore a bit, granted it is not the same level elden ring is.
 
The bosses are made to KILL the player. FromSoftware has not designed as far as i know a system where bosses will adjust their attacks or patterns according to the build the player has taken. A boss will not run away from a player and only shoot because the player is a melee build.
You seem to not understand my point, so let me spell it for you.
The boss movesets is tailored to counter the habits/muscle memory/usual tactics of players. It's basically taking notes of what players used in previous titles, and inserting specific counters to it, and incorporating "traps" in the movesets that will make the player think he has to act one way, just to punish him for it. It includes ****tons of delayed attack, input reading, AoE, extremely long combo, variable combo, jumping out of reach and so on.
Obviously, some measure of it is beneficial, to provide for challenge, unexpected outcomes and variety. The problem with Elden Ring, is that it's so ubiquitous that it breaks the fourth wall and immersion, and push the game toward being just frustrating and not rewarding. When fighting a boss in Dark Souls, I had the feeling of facing some powerful foe. When fighting a boss in Elden Ring, it feels like trying to guess what the designer tried to trick and bait my reactions and which ones would be punished. That's too meta to be enjoyable.

(there is also the problem of bosses being ridiculous health sponges and dealing too much damage, but that's a different problem of tuning and not design here ; Midir was strongly criticized about it, but nearly everything in Elden Ring is worse)

All the "git gud", "are you sure you played the game" and other are just juvenile attempts at "my d*ck is bigger !" contest. You'll not impress anyone over 20 with it, so if you disagree (which you have full rights about), spare me the schoolyard banter and use actual arguments instead, thanks.
 
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You seem to not understand my point, so let me spell it for you.
The boss movesets is tailored to counter the habits/muscle memory/usual tactics of players. It's basically taking notes of what players used in previous titles, and inserting specific counters to it, and incorporating "traps" in the movesets that will make the player think he has to act one way, just to punish him for it. It includes ****tons of delayed attack, input reading, AoE, extremely long combo, variable combo, jumping out of reach and so on.
Obviously, some measure of it is beneficial, to provide for challenge, unexpected outcomes and variety. The problem with Elden Ring, is that it's so ubiquitous that it breaks the fourth wall and immersion, and push the game toward being just frustrating and not rewarding. When fighting a boss in Dark Souls, I had the feeling of facing some powerful foe. When fighting a boss in Elden Ring, it feels like trying to guess what the designer tried to trick and bait my reactions and which ones would be punished. That's too meta to be enjoyable.

(there is also the problem of bosses being ridiculous health sponges and dealing too much damage, but that's a different problem of tuning and not design here ; Midir was strongly criticized about it, but nearly everything in Elden Ring is worse)
Like you said yourself, they are trying to give experienced souls players something good also, yes it might mess with your muscle memory. But isn't the whole point of souls like to be a challenge? I think they did a great job at doing it in order to give people familiar to the genre a new challenge.

The "not fighting a powerful foe" is very debatable. Bosses like Artorias and General Radahn are characters that share very much alike and both feel extremely powerful when fighting but are both said in the games to be in their weak form. Many dark souls bosses also don't feel powerful, but it doesn't mean it takes away from the experience. Yes, i have to say the combos bosses do in elden ring can sometimes be very baity when they have a very slow windup, but it doesn't mean they are hard and frustrating. Frustration is part of the genre and is something you should be accustomed to now if you play souls like games.

Just like dark souls it's all about learning the patterns and if you can't add the small windup the bosses have in elden ring to it, then it's a problem for you because i am completely fine being able to do it.

To each their own in the end.
 
Like you said yourself, they are trying to give experienced souls players something good also, yes it might mess with your muscle memory. But isn't the whole point of souls like to be a challenge? I think they did a great job at doing it in order to give people familiar to the genre a new challenge.
And as I said in two previous posts :
1) Yes, the idea itself is good to add variety, some measure of unpredictability and force people to learn new ways to deal with foes.
BUT
2) They went overboard with Elden Ring, to the point of the game stopping to be fun to just become frustrating. As someone on Reddit said, I have the feeling that the bosses are the ones having fun in a fight, unleashing all their combo and abilities while I'm feeling restricted to dodge and run after them.

There is a rhythm, a dance in previous DS bosses. Elden Ring is so intent on baiting and tricking that there is no rhythm to the fights.
The "not fighting a powerful foe" is very debatable. Bosses like Artorias and General Radahn are characters that share very much alike and both feel extremely powerful when fighting but are both said in the games to be in their weak form.
Artorias was fun. Radahn is a pretty original fight, but horrible to play. Between the heatseeking arrows that two-shot, the ridiculous spam attacks (and the ridiculous horse-to-rider ratio, but at least that one is funny) for something so large, the usual camera gore when fighting large enemy (a long-time problem of the serie) and the instakill meteor, the neverending first phase followed by quick death and replay from the start, I really didn't find anything fun in it.

Many dark souls bosses also don't feel powerful, but it doesn't mean it takes away from the experience. Yes, i have to say the combos bosses do in elden ring can sometimes be very baity when they have a very slow windup, but it doesn't mean they are hard and frustrating. Frustration is part of the genre and is something you should be accustomed to now if you play souls like games.
Frustration, like difficulty, is a tool to reach fun. It's part of the process to feel achievement and satisfaction when you overcome the obstacle.
But Elden Ring bosses are so artificial and unfair (not all, but too many of them) that when I win, I don't feel "I managed to kill him, AHAH I SUCCEEDED !" but more "that was such bullsh*t, what a relief it's over".

Like I already said, I precisely feels that they became so famous for games being "difficult and frustrating" that they ended up making this the focus instead of just a mean.

Just like dark souls it's all about learning the patterns and if you can't add the small windup the bosses have in elden ring to it, then it's a problem for you because i am completely fine being able to do it.

To each their own in the end.
Obviously each person is entitled to their taste. But "I'm find with it so there is no problem" is a dumb argument, especially as Dark Souls are famous for having widely different experiences between people (and even widely different experience during subsequent runs). The problems I listed are not just "there are too many attacks with delays" (though there are), but a more general design philosophy that seeps into much more than just this aspect.
You're fine with it, great, doesn't mean your opinion is universal (nor is mine) nor that there isn't any valid criticisms pertaining to said design philosophy.
 
I know that the devs currently think that Elden Ring is very good and that everyone is playing that.

I beg to differ. I watched a bunch of gameplays and then tried the game out for a bit and I can say that The Elden Ring combat is pretty much garbage compared to M&B. The story is nice and all and I might play it for that, but the gameplay is just so simplified to animation timing that it hurts. Only the graphics are an upgrade to what's essentially a 2001 game.
sounds like you need to git gud
 
Ehhh... I expected more from a fromsoft game. This is just DS3 with a horse and more OP magic, the story is the same, they underused/oversell George RR martin, he could have crafted a way better lore if he had the chance, but I guess from soft wanted another dark universe where everything is dying and there are big lords to murder, and then you become king of everything or kill everything, or whatever the other 4 endings you could only get if you spoke to a frog before you kill a giant rat, while it's hidden in an unreachable swamp unless you had the amulet of the smelling cuckold or whatever gives you. Time to change the formula in my opinion, got old, and got boring, wished I hadnt spend that much money on a game I didn't bother to finish, DS3 was a good closure, this felt like an expansion mod that added an open world and a fancy horse
 
I frankly didn't enjoy elden ring.

I faced a big cat deamon and died about 100x in a row. Someone told me that I shouldn't be facing it early so I went a different path and defeated the next 3 bosses without dying once...

Why a friend had to tell me that and not the game I don't know. Just seems like bad design when you can be forced into a near unwinnable fight by going left instead of right. Either way the difficulty seems very arbitrary, enemies are either easy or impossible (and seem to skip the fun but challenging stage entirely).

P.S also I took the shield class and apparently that was a huge mistake too...
 
It's quite astonishing that people in this thread are genuinely thinking that taleworlds needs to strategize their patch schedule in any way, let alone depending on some other game being released.

Bannerlord is over.

The game has been released. It doesn't matter if they call it early access or whatnot, that's just a word. The release and the majority of sales are done. Whatever they do now is of little consequence, since bannerlord is already known as a disappointment and will be forever remembered as such.
Taleworlds are working on another game by now that will actually make additional money instead of just additional cost. Meanwhile some leftover employees release a patch for bannerlord every now and then, so people here feel like the people in charge at taleworlds care (they don't). That much is clear when you just look at what they actually do with all the patches, i.e. almost nothing divided into small portions. Everything else wouldn't be economical.

Get a dose of reality..
git gud scrubs - everything in elden dongle is dodgeable and it's a joke compared to nioh.
 
I frankly didn't enjoy elden ring.

I faced a big cat deamon and died about 100x in a row. Someone told me that I shouldn't be facing it early so I went a different path and defeated the next 3 bosses without dying once...

Why a friend had to tell me that and not the game I don't know. Just seems like bad design when you can be forced into a near unwinnable fight by going left instead of right. Either way the difficulty seems very arbitrary, enemies are either easy or impossible (and seem to skip the fun but challenging stage entirely).

Freedom of choice and taking initiative is a huge theme in Elden Ring. This subject presents itself in not just the narrative, but also through the player's actual physical progression through the game. No one forced you to fight the cat demon, that was your choice alone. It was not a prerequisite for advancing further in the game, and you could have easily bypassed it (you eventually did) instead of taking a difficult fight while grossly under-leveled.

This is actually good game design. The game didn't hold your hand, and it didn't "give you the answer". The idea to divert your course around the enemy came from a human player, and not the game's script. Instead of spelling everything out for players, it forces them to think critically and actually spend a little bit of brain power on problem solving.

Most games have a very linear and formulaic difficulty scaling. The enemies, gameplay, puzzles, etc. get increasingly more difficult with each progressing region/level you enter, with challenges balanced to match with the player's level of development. There is also usually a pretty obvious path forward that the player is clearly intended to take. Elden Ring doesn't exactly play by this trope. There are loads of fights that are easily accessible within the first hour that the player is not ready for. And this is okay. It forces the player to navigate through the world with survival and readiness in mind, and creates some genuinely fun surprises. Also, the path is purposefully vague at times, which forces the player to go full explorer mode, and stabbing blindly into a vast unfamiliar landscape can be a lot of fun.

In this way, Mount&Blade is quite similar to Elden Ring. All of the strongest opponents are present in the world from the moment the game starts. It's up to the player if they want to take on a King's war party or high level bandits directly in the beginning -a fight which they will probably lose due to a lack of combat skills, equipment, party size, and/or if the player is new. But the choice is entirely up to them, and they have the liberty to engage or not engage in battle if they want to.

In addition, a great example of 'games holding your hand' vs. 'letting the player learn and develop on their own' is playing as a merchant in Warband vs. Bannerlord.

Bannerlord took all the fun out of playing as a trader/merchant, with a braindead easy menu of what goods you can buy/sell at a profit and exactly where to sell them. This menu is present at every city and it pretty much just turns the game into a spreadsheet reading and clicking simulator. There is no discovery, no detective work, and no catharsis from finally figuring out a profitable economic process.

Playing as a trader in Warband however, required much more effort and inputs, but in the end it felt infinitely more satisfying. In Warband, you had to first understand how the in-game economy worked, and then find out which regions produced which raw materials, and what cities produced these raw materials into finished products. This was done by actually walking around settlements and talking to people, asking about their village/city to find out what the settlement produced. There were no menus to tell you this. Once this was established, you had to find out where shortages and surpluses existed. To do this, you could either ask a city's guild master about trade and he would tell what shortages they were experiencing, or, you could compare what products said city produced and whether or not the nearby villages produced the raw materials needed for the city's finished product. If the raw materials needed weren't produced locally, then there was usually a shortage and thus great demand for them.

An actual example of this would be the Khergit city of Halmar, which produces tools. Tools require raw iron, but none of the nearby villages produce iron. Thus, iron needs to be imported from elsewhere, and the Halmar merchants will pay a great deal of denars for it. Iron is produced most abundantly and cheaply in the villages around the Vaegir city of Curaw (and sold at discount in Curaw itself). The player merchant character would then go to these villages and buy up all the iron, which sold at around 90-110 denars. The player merchant then goes to Halmar, which will usually start buying raw iron at around 311 denars. 90 > 311 denars is a huge leap in price, and makes for an incredibly efficient trade transaction for the player.

It's not as simple as just looking at a cheatsheet menu, but after all the hard work that goes into it, it feels much more earned and adds to the level of fun.
 
Freedom of choice and taking initiative is a huge theme in Elden Ring. This subject presents itself in not just the narrative, but also through the player's actual physical progression through the game. No one forced you to fight the cat demon, that was your choice alone. It was not a prerequisite for advancing further in the game, and you could have easily bypassed it (you eventually did) instead of taking a difficult fight while grossly under-leveled.

This is actually good game design. The game didn't hold your hand, and it didn't "give you the answer". The idea to divert your course around the enemy came from a human player, and not the game's script. Instead of spelling everything out for players, it forces them to think critically and actually spend a little bit of brain power on problem solving.

Most games have a very linear and formulaic difficulty scaling. The enemies, gameplay, puzzles, etc. get increasingly more difficult with each progressing region/level you enter, with challenges balanced to match with the player's level of development. There is also usually a pretty obvious path forward that the player is clearly intended to take. Elden Ring doesn't exactly play by this trope. There are loads of fights that are easily accessible within the first hour that the player is not ready for. And this is okay. It forces the player to navigate through the world with survival and readiness in mind, and creates some genuinely fun surprises. Also, the path is purposefully vague at times, which forces the player to go full explorer mode, and stabbing blindly into a vast unfamiliar landscape can be a lot of fun.
I disagree; as there was no way for me as a player to know that this was the 'wrong path' and the game was setup to effectively make that fight impossible with my current level/build. There was no hints or dialogue to suggest this was the 'wrong path' and the enemies leading to the boss were easily defeated. I made no conscious choice - I followed what I believed to be the path forward; and was promptly punished for it. i wasn't even aware there was 'another path' until told.

If it wasn't for my friend I would have been forever convinced that that boss was the predestined point for new players. That's not a sign of a good game - I understand your comment about not 'hand holding'; but equally a player should not be encouraged to go down a path of no-return. And honestly that's what Elden Ring felt like - lots of things to explore; but you have to complete them in a specific order.

Dragon age origins had this same issue; you could pick 4 locations to visit; but their difficulty was not scaled. meaning there was an intended path of progression. Pick the wrong path - and be punished for it.

And again - I'm okay with that; if there is a way for a player to know this beforehand; as I get older I respect games that respect my time - and I don't have the time to be pushed down dead-ends anymore.

It's quite astonishing that people in this thread are genuinely thinking that taleworlds needs to strategize their patch schedule in any way, let alone depending on some other game being released.

Bannerlord is over.

The game has been released. It doesn't matter if they call it early access or whatnot, that's just a word. The release and the majority of sales are done. Whatever they do now is of little consequence, since bannerlord is already known as a disappointment and will be forever remembered as such.
Taleworlds are working on another game by now that will actually make additional money instead of just additional cost. Meanwhile some leftover employees release a patch for bannerlord every now and then, so people here feel like the people in charge at taleworlds care (they don't). That much is clear when you just look at what they actually do with all the patches, i.e. almost nothing divided into small portions. Everything else wouldn't be economical.

Get a dose of reality..
git gud scrubs - everything in elden dongle is dodgeable and it's a joke compared to nioh.
I'm sorry but that's completely wrong.

Many EA games get massive surges upon releasing from EA for multiple reasons;

  • They get a big new steam banner and release promo's.
  • They typically go on a huge sale.
  • Players who dropped it previously will return in numbers to check out the 'released version'.
  • Streamers will cover the game again.
  • Players who refuse to buy EA games will take another look at it.
It's effectively a second release - you can argue about what this says about the gaming industry but that's the reality.
 
For me Elden Ring is the best game since a very long time and even surpasses Witcher 3 and Skyrim (unmodded). I don't have to grind anything in Elden Ring, character progression feels meaningful, the bosses are a blast and feel challenging but fair, the mount is awesome, ashes of war give so many options, the world building is the best which I have ever seen (especially the underground areas, like going down the sewers in the capitol and whenever you think that you are at the end there's an invisible wall which allows to go down even further). The only feature which I don't like are the summons but I just don't use them instead of complaining about them (some bosses have so few offensive windows that it feels like they were balanced around summons which I don't like tho). Also FromSoft doesn't seem to be obsessed with playing fun police and nerfing 90% of what players are using into the ground.

What I figured out is that defense in ER is far more important than it was in previous games. Using defensive amulets, boiled crab consumeable, golden vow buff, using that special flask (using the crystal tears which reduce equip load so much that you can always use fast roll and the one which boosts my magic resistance), defensive ashes like bloodhound step and heavy armor really helps a lot. On my first playthrough I got a bit frustrated as well because I was playing the game like Dark Souls but once I started to care about my mitigation and utilized ashes of war the game became a lot easier than Dark Souls, even without using summons.

I can see that some people who like RP and side activities don't enjoy Elden Ring but in terms of action combat and world exploration it's one of the best games out there while also being very accessable. The thread reads like a pure troll thread, bashing a game which has nothing to do with Bannerlord because the OP doesn't like it. Elden Ring was trending higher than Minecraft (which is considered as the most popular game by far) for 2 months, which is massive.
 
For me Elden Ring is the best game since a very long time and even surpasses Witcher 3 and Skyrim (unmodded). I don't have to grind anything in Elden Ring, character progression feels meaningful, the bosses are a blast and feel challenging but fair, the mount is awesome, ashes of war give so many options, the world building is the best which I have ever seen (especially the underground areas, like going down the sewers in the capitol and whenever you think that you are at the end there's an invisible wall which allows to go down even further). The only feature which I don't like are the summons but I just don't use them instead of complaining about them (some bosses have so few offensive windows that it feels like they were balanced around summons which I don't like tho). Also FromSoft doesn't seem to be obsessed with playing fun police and nerfing 90% of what players are using into the ground.

What I figured out is that defense in ER is far more important than it was in previous games. Using defensive amulets, boiled crab consumeable, golden vow buff, using that special flask (using the crystal tears which reduce equip load so much that you can always use fast roll and the one which boosts my magic resistance), defensive ashes like bloodhound step and heavy armor really helps a lot. On my first playthrough I got a bit frustrated as well because I was playing the game like Dark Souls but once I started to care about my mitigation and utilized ashes of war the game became a lot easier than Dark Souls, even without using summons.

I can see that some people who like RP and side activities don't enjoy Elden Ring but in terms of action combat and world exploration it's one of the best games out there while also being very accessable. The thread reads like a pure troll thread, bashing a game which has nothing to do with Bannerlord because the OP doesn't like it. Elden Ring was trending higher than Minecraft (which is considered as the most popular game by far) for 2 months, which is massive.
I'm not the OP but I won't personally suggest Elden ring is a bad game - it is provably not. Just not one I enjoyed.

Regrettably I never got this sense of challenge which i enjoy in other titles. The game only ever felt impossible or mind-numbingly easy. At no point did a task feel 'hard but achievable'.
 
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