Early Access as defined by Tale Worlds

[babelfisch]

It's mostly that I'm terribly disappointed. I played an awful lot of M&B, Warband and VC. I used to admire how Armagan had managed to whip up such a game with so few means. With a decent crew, TW seems to be floundering. And they also seem to have tried to rebuild all the basic blocks of M&B from a blank slate... With haphazard and inconvincing results. It makes me quite sad and I don't get a good feeling from where it's going.

Personally I don't really understand why some people are so disappointed. Which doesn't mean they are wrong, just that I don't get it...
Bannerlord is like M&B with better graphics, a few additional features, better UI and QOL improvements. It's what I expected and hoped for.
Sure, a few features from Warband are still missing, like Feasts and more dialogue options. There are also balancing issues. But I expect that this stuff will be added before the end of EA.
Maybe I am wrong and the current version is feature complete (I hope not), then I would certainly be disappointed. Only time will tell.

 

[Bredd]

People have a right to feel disappointed and not like the game. That being said, I can see very little evidence of deception by Taleworlds. A few random points below

• The game is clearly stated to be in early access, with a warning on what that means on the storefront.
• You are not guaranteed to like or enjoy the game in it's early access or finished state.
• Price is largely irrelevant, because you determine if you choose to participate in it's current price point. Same as you may have with other early access titles.
• The developers may well fail to deliver what they initially envisioned.
• I have over 100 enjoyable hours played, so I feel I have already received my moneys worth in the game, and I look forward to more playtime in the future after future updates, even if that is a couple years into the future.

 

[Sheepify]

The game is clearly stated to be in early access, with a warning on what that means on the storefront.

Except that they are not conducting this like any other Early Access I've been a part of. Which included constant back-and-forth between the participants and developers on Steam boards. We can't even get basic information on "official forum," much less silly things like responses to "Feedback and Ideas."

This isn't Early Access, this is the very "pre-purchase" that Steam's own EA guidelines warn against abusing EA for (not like Steam is going to do anything about it, though, heh).

That being said, I can see very little evidence of deception by Taleworlds.

You forgot one major and very important part:

In the game's description advertised on Steam (you know, the store page which content, at least here in the US, is considered a legally binding agreement) they state this:

How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?

“We intend to use a range of different methods to gather player feedback and data throughout the early access period. These include engaging with users directly on our official forum and our Steam forum

Do you see them engaging directly here to the point where it would validate the claim of "involving the Community in development of" this game? I don't.

DO you see the "engaging direct" in ANY way on Steam's forum?

It makes that part of the game's description a fradulent statement, because, again - at least in the US - if you claim something in advertisement and don't do it (much less in advertisement affecting purchase decisions of your customers), it's straight up fraudulent advertisement and illegal.

I tried to refund with Steam. Twice. Precisely because I bought this to participate in Early Access, not just throw money at Taleworlds and be fed tidbits of blogs or occasional "official announcement" when they feel like it, that left me feel cheated. Especially in light of their own description of what the process was supposed to entail, much less my own expectation coming from multiple previous EA projects that included direct communication with the developers.

Steam didn't even bother explaining to me why their general rules of "time played" are more important than what customer protection laws we still have, or why they disagree with my claim that the game ended up being fradulently advertised. Steam being Steam - "Customer support? Ain't nobody got time for that!" Theres no way to get any kind of information beyond the "select from the list" response on refund attempts, either, but that's Steam - never mind.

Considering THIS "official" Taleworlds staff post (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...-deserves-a-server.426714/page-2#post-9480854), with its "Players are free to refund. Did we state on anywhere that we decline the refund requests? If we do please let me know where and when." claim, I e-mailed Taleworlds directly asking for assistance with Steam and its refund process. Not that I expected much, but did not even receive a response to the polite tune of "sod off."

Well, I tried to resolve this amicably, but have no intention of continuing quietly participating in this charade. The courts are pretty swamped right now (they just opened in limited capacity due after COVID shutdown), but that gives me more time to contact some folks I want to run this experience though - our state's Attorney General for starters. The current one really does not take kindly to corporations leveraging their legal power to effectively ignore our laws.

Taleworlds had plenty of time to implement some form of direct communication, not just as they falsely advertised on their page, but even to address the many concerns about it voiced on these boards. It appears they think they don't have to adhere to such basic laws as truth in advertisement, for some reason. This experience, instead of leaving me happily playing (and I certainly don't need "finished game" to do that when I'm part of a genuine Early Access project - and Bannerlord is, once again, anything but that) and throwing feedback and ideas at them, were they a professional developer with professional understanding of what Early Access (or even their own sodding advertisement) claims entails, I'm going to turn all that energy into something else now.

At least it'll be a learning experinece, and they have had plenty of time to address the issue.

 

[Talbrys]

Do you see them engaging directly here to the point where it would validate the claim of "involving the Community in development of" this game? I don't.

Why yes, yes I do.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/statement-regarding-plans-for-singleplayer-and-engine.422296/post-9487287

Well, I tried to resolve this amicably, but have no intention of continuing quietly participating in this charade. The courts are pretty swamped right now (they just opened in limited capacity due after COVID shutdown), but that gives me more time to contact some folks I want to run this experience though - our state's Attorney General for starters. The current one really does not take kindly to corporations leveraging their legal power to effectively ignore our laws.

Taleworlds had plenty of time to implement some form of direct communication, not just as they falsely advertised on their page, but even to address the many concerns about it voiced on these boards. It appears they think they don't have to adhere to such basic laws as truth in advertisement, for some reason. This experience, instead of leaving me happily playing (and I certainly don't need "finished game" to do that when I'm part of a genuine Early Access project - and Bannerlord is, once again, anything but that) and throwing feedback and ideas at them, were they a professional developer with professional understanding of what Early Access (or even their own sodding advertisement) claims entails, I'm going to turn all that energy into something else now.

At least it'll be a learning experinece, and they have had plenty of time to address the issue.

LMAO

Ok bud, glhf. When your case gets thrown out don't forget to claim the justice system is discriminating against you because you're x.

 

[Sheepify]

Why yes, yes I do.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/statement-regarding-plans-for-singleplayer-and-engine.422296/post-9487287

You may be happy with the occasional post thrown by Duh or Mexxico on the "official" forum. I'm not, especially since I don't recall a single one of them having any kind of follow-up, much less actual discussion with the "community." Steam is still completely ignored in that regard, by the by.

Hm, I guess old Mexxico's posts about prosperity and town growth might be a single exception to that.

I'm prepared to argue this does not validate the advertisement, and have literal tens of other genuine Early Access projects to submit as opposing evidence of how "direct interaction" and "community involvement in development" looks like.

Ok bud, glhf. When your case gets thrown out don't forget to claim the justice system is discriminating against you because you're x.

Somehow I think I have much more experience with litigations and better ability to judge what is a valid case in my jurisdiction than you, but thank you all the same.

No need to display your political leanings with such fervor, either.

 

[Bredd]

Except that they are not conducting this like any other Early Access I've been a part of. Which included constant back-and-forth between the participants and developers on Steam boards. We can't even get basic information on "official forum," much less silly things like responses to "Feedback and Ideas."

This isn't Early Access, this is the very "pre-purchase" that Steam's own EA guidelines warn against abusing EA for (not like Steam is going to do anything about it, though, heh).
You forgot one major and very important part:

In the game's description advertised on Steam (you know, the store page which content, at least here in the US, is considered a legally binding agreement) they state this:



Do you see them engaging directly here to the point where it would validate the claim of "involving the Community in development of" this game? I don't.

DO you see the "engaging direct" in ANY way on Steam's forum?

Well, it took me about 1 minute 30 seconds. In that time I did see examples of Taleworld employees interacting with posters on the Steam community forums specific to Bannerlord. The most recent post I found was on July 2nd of 2020. I didn't bother checking more than that, but there could be others that are more recent.

In the store description, I did not see Taleworlds give a time frame of when their community communication and regarding development might occur. Nor did I see them claim that your experience with their early access would be similar to your early access experience with other companies. I don't claim to be a legal expert, but I'm confident you don't have a clue of what you are talking about from a legal standpoint, nor does it seem you have a legal case based on the easily debunked information you presented.

I imagine if you continue to push on Steam you would likely get a refund. Out of curiosity, how much have you played Bannerlord?

 

[babelfisch]

You may be happy with the occasional post thrown by Duh or Mexxico on the "official" forum. I'm not, especially since I don't recall a single one of them having any kind of follow-up, much less actual discussion with the "community." Steam is still completely ignored in that regard, by the by.

Hm, I guess old Mexxico's posts about prosperity and town growth might be a single exception to that.

I'm prepared to argue this does not validate the advertisement, and have literal tens of other genuine Early Access projects to submit as opposing evidence of how "direct interaction" and "community involvement in development" looks like.
Somehow I think I have much more experience with litigations and better ability to judge what is a valid case in my jurisdiction than you, but thank you all the same.

No need to display your political leanings with such fervor, either.

I think the frequency and quality of communication is a topic that deserves criticism (unlike you I experienced that with many other companies though). However, that alone doesn't justify the hostility presented by some of the members on this forum though.
There are like 5 people who constantly spam the forums demanding that the game gets sold to another studio (which obviously isn't going to happen) and create an atmosphere that makes an actual discussion about the game and its shortcomings impossible. They are trolls who regard everyone who doesn't agree with their agenda as mindless fanboys and cultists because it's absolutely impossible that anyone has a different opinion.

Anyway, I absolutely agree that communication should be more open.

 

[Skjuld]

People have a right to feel disappointed and not like the game. That being said, I can see very little evidence of deception by Taleworlds. A few random points below

• The game is clearly stated to be in early access, with a warning on what that means on the storefront.
• You are not guaranteed to like or enjoy the game in it's early access or finished state.
• Price is largely irrelevant, because you determine if you choose to participate in it's current price point. Same as you may have with other early access titles.
• The developers may well fail to deliver what they initially envisioned.
• I have over 100 enjoyable hours played, so I feel I have already received my moneys worth in the game, and I look forward to more playtime in the future after future updates, even if that is a couple years into the future.

Deception, no. I don't think that they are out to deceive people. But it looks like they have a lot of trouble managing this game development and their current structure. That's what worries me.