dont like how sp makes level advancement...

[tizuby]

I suspect they'd be better inverted, i.e. rather than applying a penalty to skill growth once it passes the attribute boundary instead provide a bonus to skill gain up to that boundary. It'd retain it's incentive to specialise without overly punishing players for focusing on the 'wrong' skills at the wrong time.

It already does that. Your EXP rate is much higher the more green there is. As you get closer to the boundary it drops.

Instead of completely nixing the penalty phase (where you go past the boundary far enough till you get 0xp gain) they should cap the total possible attribute amounts like they do focus, and once you hit the maximum attribute level the penalty should never reach 0. Something like 0.5 instead. And that should really only take effect around 250 to 275.

Ideally we should be able to eventually max out 3, maybe 4 skills, but also become moderately ok in the rest. But not becoming an in-game god by being able to max everything (that's something that should be left to modding/cheat menus).

 

[tizuby]

No it is not for the reasons i explained in post # 10

The way it is at the moment, you ran against a wall on your chosen core skills and you can't level up higher unless you generalize and grind points in skills you don't need/want.

And your explanation is wrong, because you're only taking the current preliminary implementation of it into account and not looking at the higher level vision of it.

The goal of the system is so you gain skills/levels organically. That's what it's designed around. That it's flawed with the current implementation doesn't negate that. The system still needs work, obviously, to achieve that vision. It's early access though, that's to be expected. Virtually none of these features and systems are in their finished state.

 

[Wandering Knight]

I totally loved the new leveling system. Previous one was so dull, I mean, "eliminate more enemies to get level" is so primitive and new way is far better. If you successfully shoot an enemy on horseback this might increase your horse riding skill or archery which makes far more sense. Now, even if you do not take anyone down, your skill gets better and better according to what you are doing.

 

[Ghostwish]

And your explanation is wrong, because you're only taking the current preliminary implementation of it into account and not looking at the higher level vision of it.

The goal of the system is so you gain skills/levels organically. That's what it's designed around. That it's flawed with the current implementation doesn't negate that. The system still needs work, obviously, to achieve that vision. It's early access though, that's to be expected. Virtually none of these features and systems are in their finished state.

1.what is wrong ?
2.thats why you give feedback......because the system needs work

 

[Wolfsblut]

And your explanation is wrong, because you're only taking the current preliminary implementation of it into account and not looking at the higher level vision of it.

The goal of the system is so you gain skills/levels organically. That's what it's designed around. That it's flawed with the current implementation doesn't negate that. The system still needs work, obviously, to achieve that vision. It's early access though, that's to be expected. Virtually none of these features and systems are in their finished state.

This system can't work because its core is rotten.

It has never worked in any game (Darkfall Online and game like those is are a nice example).

But it is useless to argue with someone like you.
You have no arguments.
All you are repeating is "you don't see how great it will be once its done".
So yea, whatever.

PS:
and here you got an example

It already does that. Your EXP rate is much higher the more green there is. As you get closer to the boundary it drops.

That you have no clue what you are talking about.
You don't even understand the problem, because you obviously never played to the point when the "green thingy" can't be raised anymore.

 

[Stromming]

You don't liking it doesn't make it a bad system.

I like the new system, but it is currently a bit broken. Just give it some time.

 

[Grumblegoof]

I think the problem is; both attribute- and focus points are both negative feedback loops in the system. Both make it som that the further you go up a skill, the more you gain, in that skill, from doing other things instead.

I the intention is to get better "organically" the more you do things, then these loops need to go away or at least get tuned way down.

 

[ἀποκάλυψις]

I wish they would just make the whole system invisible so you couldn’t see it. Then you could stop worrying about it and just do what you want do instead of chasing the greased pig around to make the ticker go up. If you didn’t know what benefits you were receiving via level chasing would you care as much? Then you could redefine progress instead of stressing that game hasn’t let you cap yet.

 

[tizuby]

and here you got an example

That you have no clue what you are talking about.
You don't even understand the problem, because you obviously never played to the point when the "green thingy" can't be raised anymore.

Oh, look at you quoting out of context.

Go read the line I typed immediately following it, where I pointed out that the current implementation will slowly penalize you as you *pass* the boundary until it caps at 0, and then mentioned a way to tweak the system to resolve it.

The core isn't "rotton". You just don't like this type of skill system. That itself is a valid opinion. What's not valid is you stating your opinion as though it were a fact. It's not, it's subjective.


The implementation they should be aiming for is one in which you don't have to grind on things you don't care about to progress the skills that you do care about. I agree with that sentiment. As do others in this thread. That's why we're looking at ways the current implementation of the system could be changed to achieve that.

What you're proposing is throwing everything out and reverting to an (in my opinion) worse system that makes no sense and is a holdover from the 80's when RPGs and experience systems were first conceived. They needed a quick, easy to calculate by hand way of having character progression. So they sacrificed any semblance of "this makes sense" to achieve that. It worked well enough, given those needs (it still does on pen & paper RPGs). However, logically "I can kill X bad guys and will be a master blacksmith if I put all my points there!" makes no sense.

It's not (in my opinion) a good system when the computer is doing all the math for you.

 

[karijus]

I really don't understand how people can defend this system. An example that was not mentioned - companion leveling is screwed now. Get the beta and try to level up a low level companion, and you will instantly see why the old system is actually way better designed. The problem is - you hire a person, they have one handed and riding skills, great. Except they will have those skills maxed, and wont level at all if you just let them do what they are actually best at, because unlike the player, they can't decide to just level up all the other skills. So now you are forced to give them a weapon they don't know how to use etc, just so that they can level up, but that won't work for long as they will quickly reach the limit of their less focused skills.

And there is no way to grow them and make them specialize in something, because if you invest the talent whatever points into lets say scouting, then they will simply not be able to level up at all, as there will not be enough space for SP growth. So what happens now - you find a guy or a gal with high medicine skill, the skill will probably be maxed and in red, so that's basically all you will have, forever. Very static and very boring.

The way game works now is that "character progress" is tied to items way more than growing skills, like you get riding up to 90 for that fancy war horse and after that it doesn't matter much, which is just not a fun way to go about doing things.

I'm not even sure what's the point of the new system, like the perks are kinda interesting, but you can incorporate perks anywhere. The old one was just way better as a game system.

 

[kekkuli5]

I really don't understand how people can defend this system. An example that was not mentioned - companion leveling is screwed now. Get the beta and try to level up a low level companion, and you will instantly see why the old system is actually way better designed. The problem is - you hire a person, they have one handed and riding skills, great. Except they will have those skills maxed, and wont level at all if you just let them do what they are actually best at, because unlike the player, they can't decide to just level up all the other skills. So now you are forced to give them a weapon they don't know how to use etc, just so that they can level up.

And there is no way to grow them and make them specialize in something, because if you invest the talent whatever points into lets say scouting, then they will simply not be able to level up at all, as there will not be enough space for SP growth. So what happens now - you find a guy or a gal with high medicine skill, the skill will probably be maxed and in red, so that's basically all you will have, forever. Very static and very boring.

I'm not even sure what's the point of the new system, like the perks are kinda interesting, but you can incorporate perks into any system, but otherwise the old one was just way better as a game system.

Yeah i loved how you could customize and level your companions WAY better in warband than with this current system here. There are much better ways to add more customization and specialization to your character than this frustrating and limiting system.

 

[Mimmitar]

Why we can't have the best of both systems. If they remove the you require X SP points to level up and replaced it with a XP bar that's calculated from the sum of XP across all skills. In that system going from 200 polearms to 201 will be worth substantially more total XP than leveling your smithing from 20 to 30.

This gets rid of the killing is the only way to level up problem some have with Warband while getting rid of the need others feel the new system forces to generalise.

 

[Maximum997]

You don't liking it doesn't make it a bad system.

It is bad system:

It forces you to grind useless skills that you dont want. Becouse to improve your favorite skill you need focus point, for focus point you need lvl up, for lvl up you need raise skill, to raise skill...
So go throw javelins to looters to get another focus points tou your favorite skill.
And you need to do it in most stupid way - by farming looters. Tactic, roughery, weapon skills - looters,looters,looters...

Why we can't have the best of both systems. If they remove the you require X SP points to level up and replaced it with a XP bar that's calculated from the sum of XP across all skills.

YES!!! You are totaly right!
To fix it you need just ONE thing - make lvl up from global XP bank. You already have XP from any ative action. Just throw them in one "global xp bank" and get lvl ups from it.

Instead of LVL 15 6\20
Make it LVL 15 5800\20000
Thats all. It solves everything. I am really angry that and devs cant see that easy and obvious solution.

And it even adds the new way to play the game - The smart guy who doesnt kill anyone by himself. Right now it is almost impossible, becouse weapon skills are the huge source of fast lvl ups.

 

[Stromming]

But how does that solve anything?

Right now the system is that it requires X amount of SP per level up, and it counts SP in all the different skills.
What you are suggesting is "global XP bank", that is calculated from "sum of XP across all skills".

How are they different?
If you don't level throwing then you won't have any XP in throwing and so it will slow down your levelling?

 

[Maximum997]

If you don't level throwing then you won't have any XP in throwing and so it will slow down your levelling?

Hmmm.. Nope, becouse instead of throwing you will get XP from something else you want. It is obvious man...

 

[Stromming]

Hmmm.. Nope, becouse instead of throwing you will get XP from something else you are doing. It is obvious man...

So get SP from something else then.

Don't say that it is obvious when you can't even explain what you mean.

Explain how the system works so people can understand.

 

[Mimmitar]

How are they different?
If you don't level throwing then you won't have any XP in throwing and so it will slow down your levelling?

Each skill point needs progressively more xp per level, as your only counting total XP there's n. The idea being that if your leveling a point in something you are focusing on (150+) the amount of XP needed to gain 151 is significantly more than the xp you need for say throwing (which you left at 20).

Ignoring a low skill won't slow down the XP you gain for other skills.

Numbers are just grabbed out of the air but illustrate the point. I'm sure someone can provide the actual curve.


Throwing 20 to 21 (need 500xp)
Polearm 150 to 151 (need 150000xp)

Each skill will have gain XP at the same base regardless of your skill.

 

[Stromming]

Each skill point needs progressively more xp per level, as your only counting total XP there's n. The idea being that if your leveling a point in something you are focusing on (150+) the amount of XP needed to gain 151 is significantly more than the xp you need for say throwing (which you left at 20).

Ignoring a low skill won't slow down the XP you gain for other skills.

Numbers are just grabbed out of the air but illustrate the point. I'm sure someone can provide the actual curve.

Throwing 20 to 21 (need 500xp)
Polearm 150 to 151 (need 150000xp)

Each skill will have gain XP at the same base regardless of your skill.

Okay, but unless you change how the system works, there won't actually be a difference. You are literally only changing what is shown and what it's called, not how the system works.

 

[Carabus]

Well that's not entirely true, leveling up does give you more points to spend in abilities and overall stat points to spend so you can in turn get more ability and stat points.

Leveling up your character also decreases your skill learning rate for all skills.
See this thread: link

 

[Grumblegoof]

Okay, but unless you change how the system works, there won't actually be a difference. You are literally only changing what is shown and what it's called, not how the system works.

It significantly changes how character level points are awarded, to make them independent of your spec, which is what some of us are asking for.

Now: Leveling Riding from 150-160 and smithing from 10-20 has the same value towards your character level. Not grinding up smithing to the cap will eventually limit how many other skills you can learn.

Proposed: Leveling Riding from 150-160 will have a significantly larger contribution towards your character level than smithing from 10-20. Smithing does not affect your ability to progress in other skills, and is now optional.