Dev Diary Feedback: Tournament Enhancements

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Duh said:
Getting knocked around by practise weapons isnt exactly helping your health :razz:. For gameplay reasons the healing between rounds is necessary though.
Very true statement and since it is a game and focused on enjoyment I've decided to go with this suggestion:
SirNitram said:
Heal at the beginning and at the end.
I don't think this is nearly as exploitable as Ifish suggests as you can only enter a tournament once.  The alternative if that you sit and wait in town until you heal up by which time the tournament could be over.  But since I always believe what is good for the players is good for the AI they get the same benefit.  That means that lords & companions will also receive this benefit when they before were eliminated from joining if < 30% health.  So no more lords wandering around in a tournament with 50% health as potentially easy targets.  This is for TPE only, not native tournament design.  Thanks for the feedback folks.
 
I don't know if this is scriptable; but what if entering the tournament heals you fully and you heal between rounds, but you return you to your original injured state after the tournament (or whenever you leave) so that there's no chance of exploit. I guess what most bothers me is that being fully healed after a tournament seems to create some kind of magical battlefield medic that only exists in a tournament setting. Ultimately it's an incredibly minor issue in the grand scheme of things though. Love the new tournament design and everything else in the Beta.
 
First I would like to say that the new Tornament enhancement is really good.
I just have a couple issues with,
- some NPCs reload the crossbow faster than I can draw my bow
- NPC's throwing the javelin so fast ( by the time they released one, they have already ready to release another, like a medieval semi-automatic :grin:) and the damage they apply on impact can take 99% of my health with one hit.
- I do like the vegitation in some arenas, but in some arenas there is just too much. The issue is that the arenas are too small to have full vegitation especially when using a horse.

I am using Beta 2.5 with patch and hotfix. also I have level-scaling unticked
 
Slyder said:
First I would like to say that the new Tornament enhancement is really good.
I just have a couple issues with,
- some NPCs reload the crossbow faster than I can draw my bow
- NPC's throwing the javelin so fast ( by the time they released one, they have already ready to release another, like a medieval semi-automatic :grin:) and the damage they apply on impact can take 99% of my health with one hit.
- I do like the vegitation in some arenas, but in some arenas there is just too much. The issue is that the arenas are too small to have full vegitation especially when using a horse.

I am using Beta 2.5 with patch and hotfix. also I have level-scaling unticked
You are probably slower with the bow, because your weapon proficiency is low compared to the other participants. The tournaments are meant to be kicking your ass, if you just started a game, they will gradually get "easier" with your character honing his skills and becoming a warrior.
 
lfish said:
I don't know if this is scriptable; but what if entering the tournament heals you fully and you heal between rounds, but you return you to your original injured state after the tournament...
That's a good and simple approach.  I will see about implementing it.

Duh said:
Slyder said:
First I would like to say that the new Tornament enhancement is really good.
I just have a couple issues with,
- some NPCs reload the crossbow faster than I can draw my bow
- NPC's throwing the javelin so fast ( by the time they released one, they have already ready to release another, like a medieval semi-automatic :grin:) and the damage they apply on impact can take 99% of my health with one hit.
- I do like the vegitation in some arenas, but in some arenas there is just too much. The issue is that the arenas are too small to have full vegitation especially when using a horse.

I am using Beta 2.5 with patch and hotfix. also I have level-scaling unticked
You are probably slower with the bow, because your weapon proficiency is low compared to the other participants. The tournaments are meant to be kicking your ass, if you just started a game, they will gradually get "easier" with your character honing his skills and becoming a warrior.
I'm going to second Duh here.  At early levels tournaments should feel ridiculously tough.  Imagine a barely trained whelp stepping into an arena with seasoned warriors.  There's a reason you get as much renown for winning as you do at level 1 among the other monetary benefits.  Without level scaling turned on by level 25 you shouldn't have any difficulty consistently winning tournaments even on 4v8 matches as you're now tougher than most of the opponents (minus a few).  The real killer is the disparity in weapon proficiency which gives them a strong damage & speed advantage vs. your character.

And to both of you, glad to hear you're enjoying the new design.  We'll just have to see on the long haul how difficulty balances out as players start reaching mid-end level and give their feedback.
 
Hey windy, first of all, thanks for all your amazing work, I've been really enjoying the new tourny system but I do have a few gripes.

1. The first annoyance is the way that the AI will consistently pick horses, even the commoners, who should have no training/right to use a horse in combat, it also makes arena's like Saragoth's completely buggered as you have about 10-15 horses in close proximity in that arena on hard level difficulties.

I have 2 quick, or what I think might be quick solutions.

1st, that when you enter a tourny in certain factions certain equipment is blocked.

eq nords, no horses are allowed

2nd, depending on a characters social status/class a character gains access to different equipment.

eg only lords, jarls, counts etc can use horses

I hope you have a merry christmas and thanks again, for both your work and reading my post
 
Glad you're enjoying the new system, Skeli, and I always appreciate constructive feedback.

Skeli said:
1. The first annoyance is the way that the AI will consistently pick horses, even the commoners, who should have no training/right to use a horse in combat, ...
You're not fighting "commoners" in the sense of a serf.  You are combating seasoned soldiers and nobility.  So preventing anyone from choosing horses based on "class" is not something I want to implement.

...it also makes arena's like Saragoth's completely buggered as you have about 10-15 horses in close proximity in that arena on hard level difficulties.
Valid issue and one I am to resolve.  In the short term I am thinking putting a block against the choice of horses isn't a bad idea for our 2.5 release.  I have a plan for resolving this down the road that will put complete control of tournament design in the hands of players, but that will be for down the road when TPE 1.4 is developed.

These plans are in the design stage still, but I'll give a rough sketch:
Weapon Restrictions
I intend to create a preference panel listing every city with checkbox options to allow/disable weapon choices specific to that city.  This option will limit choice to both AI & player.  Included with weapons will be the ability to block horses.  The AI will try to choose weapon combinations that are appropriate to what is available.  The main issue with a design like this is that permanent settings for tournaments will constantly get reset as you enter tournaments where a weapon type isn't allowed.  There will be buttons that either set each city to "native design" or "enable all".  If someone has all of the options enabled their preferences would not get erased.

Under each weapon choice for each city will be a menu for selecting the type of weapon desired.  In a sense you'll be able to set Nord cities to use axes instead of swords, if desired.  This should return a faction specific feel to tournaments that was a large concern regarding TPE 1.3.

Survivor vs. Performance Mode
I also intend to allow a tournament gameplay toggle between "survivor" and "performance" modes.  TPE 1.3 currently operates under what will become the performance mode (the default).  The survivor mode will function more like native tournament design, but will eliminate the worst participants from each round.  This will include the ability to eliminate the player.  If you are defeated, but remain high enough in the rankings then you will continue on.  The progression will be set though at 4v8 -> 4v6 -> 4v4 -> 4v2 -> 4v1 -> 1v1 and only the final survivor will be awarded any winnings.  This should address the other major concern for TPE 1.3's design.

Disclaimer
As stated this is all at the conceptual stage for now, but I believe I've figured out how I can implement the above features.  It will just take a fair bit of time.  Improvements to the quest & trade systems are of higher priority (to me) for 2.6.  So I can't promise Floris 2.6 will see an update to the tournament system, but if time permits it is a definite possibility.

Things I could use from players if folks are interested:
  • Tournament Models for various weapon types.  I can always use a metal skinned axe like native tournaments do, but if someone wants to create wooden alternatives for that and maces it would fit in theme better.
  • Faction Armor - Native really only changed the fur cap or the tournament cap as a difference, but if someone wanted to come up with more unique designs for each faction (as long as each tournament color is represented) I would implement them.
  • Suggested Settings - If there is a design setting I didn't describe above I'd be interested in hearing it.

I hope you have a merry christmas and thanks again
And I wish you a happy holiday period as well.  Thanks again for the input.
 
Ahhh, that clears up that issue, thanks man

One other thing occurred to me while I was tourny chasing, I know you guys have already added the ability to choose your weapon in a practice arena match and so i couldn't help but think about what other changes that could be made so here is a small list

1. A improved reward scale: The reward scale at the mo is based entirely on how long you can survive, I think it scales like, 5, then 10, then 26, then 60 and finally 200 denars for how well you do based on this scale. If it was just scaled a bit more/smoother or gained input for how many K.O's your deliver this would be a welcome change. This means that the reward could scale in a strait linar path for your survival rate

e.g

39th is 2 denars
38th is 4 denars
37th is 6 denars

This could could be then augmented (I didn't ask for this) by how many peps you knock out

e.g

1 K.O is 1


y=x(x-1)/2+1

denars = y
K.O's = x

so the numbers would look like this
1
2
4
7
11
16
22
29

so if the player K.O'ed 5 peps and was the 24th to go down he would get 43 denars, of course the numbers are up to change as you feel fit.

2. The fact that betting occurs durring tournys got me thinking, what would the peps bet on while a tourny was elsewhere, the logical answer for me was the melee fights. Now for balance issues I can understand that the player shouldn't be allowed to enter in these bets, they would be much smaller either way. The main idea of this is that based on how well the player fought, those who bet on him would would obviously be pleased/angered that the player won/lost them money thus gain or lose relation with the town. This effect should be quite small obviously and only applied to the extremes of the spectrum.

e.g
if player comes 40th-35th he loses 5-1 relation
or if player comes 5th-1st he gain 1-5 relation

3. finally maybe add some different types of melee fights, similar to the sparing one can do with their own troops, such as teams, just because I find it strange that the only melee fights are free for alls, this would get dull to watch after some time for the citizens. obviously their could be many, many different types.

eg
team
ctf
vip
one weapon type only
etc

of course these fights would be more like random events, as in one of these occur every 2-3 days, the player may enter it once that day, just to give arena fights more variety.

hope you like these suggestions, if their in the wrong place just let me know, and i'll try to work out how to move them and hasten to do so
regards skeli

ps. just had another idea concerning N1, you could make it that that the player has to pay money if they do badly, after all the reward money has to come from somewhere :razz:
 
ps. just had another idea concerning N1, you could make it that that the player has to pay money if they do badly, after all the reward money has to come from somewhere
Paying to participate would make a bit more sense me thinks :razz:
 
viware said:
...But actually i wanted to mention that you can get too rich too fast with tournament becouse of the high bets available. Made like 100k+ and i did not even bet on all rounds...
I noticed this from the Sword of Damocles forum and wanted to add it to the discussion here.  I know that Eastpaw commented on tournaments not providing enough cash in the original open beta and that was upped a bit.  What do people think of the current payout in tournaments?  I'd like to say it is fairly well balanced, but to be fair most of you probably play much more than I (too busy editing).  Also I think reaching 100k+ via tournaments alone seems a bit far fetched as you'd need to win every single round at a full bet with the best odds in nearly 14 tournaments to reach that, but over the course of a character I suppose that is possible.  Thoughts?
 
Windyplains said:
Thoughts?

Hey windy

I tried to test out the tournys a bit more, especially with the whole monetary value in mind, and from constantly following them my average income from each wad about 7.5-13k, depending on different arena's and their style. eg small arena's like wercheg was almost always at one end of the spectrum or another due to it's cluster F nature, while places like praven I was almost always in the middle.

Thats my experiences in that section and I do think that you should keep it this way or even up the monetary value cause I tried to do some clever trading on the side and maybe its because i'm really bad at trade but I always either made next to no money or lost it. Now i'm not sure exactly where but i remember somthing about floris mod pack v2.6 being more focused on trade so until that happens maybe the tourny money could be used as a sorta crutch for the weak economy but I dunno.

One final thought, could betting be turned into a sort of specific list?, like you bet that you'll K.O at least 5 dudes for greater reward/risk? but i digress, again  :razz:.

 
Skeli said:
...maybe the tourny money could be used as a sorta crutch for the weak economy but I dunno.
This paralleled my thoughts as well.  Something to revisit once trading is restored to a more reasonable level in 2.6.

One final thought, could betting be turned into a sort of specific list?, like you bet that you'll K.O at least 5 dudes for greater reward/risk? but i digress, again  :razz:.
That's an interesting suggestion.  Not only could it be done, but it wouldn't be terribly hard.  The question there is how to balance it so that it isn't an easy cash source.  If I allowed that kind of betting the current type would need to either be replaced by it or at least be substantially reduced.

Thanks for your input :smile:
 
Windyplains said:
These plans are in the design stage still, but I'll give a rough sketch:
Weapon Restrictions
I intend to create a preference panel listing every city with checkbox options to allow/disable weapon choices specific to that city.  This option will limit choice to both AI & player.  Included with weapons will be the ability to block horses.  The AI will try to choose weapon combinations that are appropriate to what is available.  The main issue with a design like this is that permanent settings for tournaments will constantly get reset as you enter tournaments where a weapon type isn't allowed.  There will be buttons that either set each city to "native design" or "enable all".  If someone has all of the options enabled their preferences would not get erased.

Under each weapon choice for each city will be a menu for selecting the type of weapon desired.  In a sense you'll be able to set Nord cities to use axes instead of swords, if desired.  This should return a faction specific feel to tournaments that was a large concern regarding TPE 1.3.

Things I could use from players if folks are interested:
  • Tournament Models for various weapon types.  I can always use a metal skinned axe like native tournaments do, but if someone wants to create wooden alternatives for that and maces it would fit in theme better.
  • Faction Armor - Native really only changed the fur cap or the tournament cap as a difference, but if someone wanted to come up with more unique designs for each faction (as long as each tournament color is represented) I would implement them.
  • Suggested Settings - If there is a design setting I didn't describe above I'd be interested in hearing it.
I had posted this last month under a spoiler as something I planned on doing for the tournament system likely around Floris 2.6 time.  Since this part of the system was ready for release prior to the final 2.5 we decided to go with it.  So I wanted to reiterate the same three suggestions from the bottom of that quote and see if there was any tweaks folks think that needed for the next revision.  Also for any who looked at the "help" presentation in the tournament system settings menu did you feel there was anything missing that should be added?


Known Issues:
[*] Somewhere between testing it on my copy and implementing it into 2.5 the "apply to all centers" checkbox stopped functioning properly so that will definitely get fixed in the next version.  Right now it doesn't seem to recognize the box was checked at all.  The intention was to click that and then use it for the "native settings" or "enable all" buttons.
 
When I was playing the beta it seemed like when you bet 200 denars and won back you're bet it accumalated, in the new release it seems like I lose or gain very little even when I win all my bets, is this because I place 3rd or lower?
 
chargers1783 said:
When I was playing the beta it seemed like when you bet 200 denars and won back you're bet it accumalated, in the new release it seems like I lose or gain very little even when I win all my bets, is this because I place 3rd or lower?
Final payout is determined by cumulative difficulty (which is only added IF you win) and your level.  Your level also applies a cap so a newer character will see less winnings just as a character that is winning less often will.
 
Now if you get points for surviving a round what happens when you and an opponent kill each other at the same exact time? Curious because it just happened and I did not know how many points I was at before so I did not know how many points I got.
 
chargers1783 said:
Now if you get points for surviving a round what happens when you and an opponent kill each other at the same exact time? Curious because it just happened and I did not know how many points I was at before so I did not know how many points I got.
Considering that the check to see if only 1 team remains probably didn't trigger fast enough between your deaths I'd assume neither of you would get the survival points.  That is a guess without having seen the match though.  You'd know the answer for certain if you didn't win your bet (and were the second person to die in that exchange).
 
Question on the tournaments: I'm fighting my companions only. No other lords, kings or anything. What's up with that? I saw screens of someone else fighting lords so I'm sure it's just me screwing up somehow =)
 
The initial roster of 32 participants is filled in this order:
Player
Companions
Heroes (lords) within the city
Generic Troops (from the TPE kit)

The people participating in a given round are the top X (depending on size & number of teams) scored participants.

So in the first round you should predominately see companions & lords as competition assuming any are available.  As rounds progress it will be whoever is doing the best score-wise that remains in a fight.  This often means low level companions will disappear from the ranks as a tournament advances.  As for not having lords...are you sure there were lords in the town when you joined the tournament?
 
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