Combat Experience: the Problem of Infantry vs Ranged/Cav

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There is a common concern, across much of these forums, that troop leveling is just too slow. The process of turning recruits into a capable military force, able to meaningfully sway large battles, is a long drawn out process of farming (mostly) free kills from Looters and the like. Even with all the right tricks in place - separating out groups, only sending in the recruits, using Looters only to build up to T3 or so - there is no denying that the process itself is repetitive. While the AI can afford to lose stack after stack on the campaign map, I suspect a vast majority of players will simply never lose their full army. Ever. The timesink of rebuilding a full army from scratch makes it simply not worth the effort, resulting in savescumming to dodge 'mistakes' (a method rendered mandatory by the game's Charm mechanic for quests, marriage, etc - once you've accepted savescumming for Charm, it just slips into regular gameplay).

It goes without saying: the Leadership perks (Raise the Meek + Combat Tips) and garrison XP (especially in castles, as it would give castles a niche role as troop training facilities) need to be fixed to apply to the entire stack rather than single units. This would go a long way towards speeding up the leveling of fresh troops, making defeats endurable and perhaps in turn creating a more 'realistic' campaign experience.

The point I wish to address is different, and regards the experience gained by troops in battle. Even after passive experience is fixed, I would still want 'battle-hardened' to be a thing. As I understand it, in the current meta, troops gain experience from doing damage.

Your newbie archers emptying their full quivers throughout a battle? Tons of experience.
Your newbie cavalry mowing down fleeing enemies at the end of a battle? Tons of experience.

Infantry has no recourse to easy experience.

The shieldwall does not deliver much damage. It does not move fast enough to earn any kills once the enemy has routed. Inevitably, a gap forms between your increasingly experienced archers/cavalry, and your underleveled infantry - compounded by the fact that infantry suffers the most casualties in any fight. The meta encourages you to view your infantry core as expendable (which is fine, perhaps even realistic), while also making them the hardest thing to rebuild. Passive exp, once fixed, will apply uniformly to all unit types. It will not redress this imbalance. Sturgian playthroughs are challenging for a multitude of reasons - geography, low kingdom prosperity, no culture bonus. From the player perspective, their infantry focus is just as detrimental. An infantry-heavy army levels slower in battles, moves slower on the map, and requires much more frequent replenishment than archer-heavy or cavalry-heavy.

I don't really have a good solution for this, only suggestions. Please feel free to add your own - or indeed, to counter if your perspective on the merits of infantry vs alternatives differs from mine.

  1. Give infantry units a significant amount of experience for receiving damage, not just dealing it: An infantry shield wall that just holds the line while archers pound the enemy, or cavalry swoops in, is 100% doing its job. This would make it much easier to level infantry lines specifically.

  2. Reduce the experience requirement for leveling up infantry lines: Level faster, but also die faster (as they already do) - a low experience requirement embraces infantry cores as expendable.

  3. Reduce the wage cost of infantry: As it stands, T5 infantry cost the same per day as T5 cavalry - many of which actually have perfectly viable melee loadouts when unhorsed. Sure, the T5 cav costs you an extra horse + heavy horse along the way - but that price ends up being a very small consideration (especially in midgame onwards, where your real concern is: "how many battles can I win decisively, before this army starts to need fresh blood?"). Overall, not a fan of this approach, as it pushes even further the idea that infantry is an inferior, cost-effective troop type... but then again, the game has no T6 infantry. So they are, in Bannerlord currently, designed as an inferior, cost-effective troop type.

  4. Treat the army as a team and spread out the experience evenly (thanks to GitiUsir): Distribute experience evenly to every soldier in the battle. Battles would give experience according to number and quality of enemies compared to number and quality of friendlies.
 
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It's like a basketball team giving all the experience to the players who score, while players on defense get nothing, when they are actually a team and everybody plays his part.
I'd distribute experience evenly to every soldier in the battle. And battles would give experience according to number and quality of enemies compared to number and quality of friendlies.

The whole I'm getting better every time I hit is nonsense. Shooting arrows non stop is the safer and easiest way to level up. In short, they are saying if you are not a horse archer you are a moron, and horse archers is all you need.
 
From my playing experience this is what I feel the problem is.

1. Training skills - these are extremely weak and need to be buffed. Raise the meek gives 30 experience each day to 1 troop of each troop type. This needs to be doubled or it needs to apply to all troops.

2. Personally training troops - In Warband you could spar with troops to speed up training, I really hope this comes back as it was immersive and feels like you are playing more of a role in training troops.

3. Companion Trainers - Training skills should stack so if you have a companion with skills like raise the meek it should be a party skill and apply as well.

4. Infantry Combat - If collision and ability to resist calvary is ever fixed you will see a big difference in performance and therefore more experience. Trained infantry in formations should be able to hold off cavalry if they have enough spears and numbers.

If TW addressed those 4 issues we would be in better shape imo.
 
I really don't understand why Bannerlord has problems that we already solved in Warband.

We already figured this out didn't we?

Maybe the problem with the training perks is just mathematical. If you look through the investigations into the perk system, TW has shown that they really struggle with correctly doing the math involved in perks.

So hopefully the two training perks are simply just programmed incorrectly and granting a lot less experience than intended, and that problem will get fixed in the future.
 
It's like a basketball team giving all the experience to the players who score, while players on defense get nothing, when they are actually a team and everybody plays his part.
I'd distribute experience evenly to every soldier in the battle. And battles would give experience according to number and quality of enemies compared to number and quality of friendlies.

The whole I'm getting better every time I hit is nonsense. Shooting arrows non stop is the safer and easiest way to level up. In short, they are saying if you are not a horse archer you are a moron, and horse archers is all you need.

Great analogy, couldn't agree more - thanks GitiUsir. Adding your bolded text to the suggestions list.
 
+1.

Being the anvil sucks, the hammer got all the glory.

I like your idea of infantry need less xp to upgrade and they are definitely need to be cheaper than cavalry in wage.

As it stands, even the best infantry is easy target for OHK javelin and couched lance, they need some helps badly.
 
I fully agree, if unit collision and mass ever get fixed and you can train up a decent Infantry core it would stop archer lines and cavalry from absolutly dominating the battlefield
 
i dont mind manually lvling up my troops but its so slow and in the mid-time even t4-5 infantry dieing to looters like armor is a joke making backwards the lvling progress has bored me to death so mostly im playing horse archer army or not at all.
 
I've been doing an infantry playthrough and I can feel this directly. The progression is so painfully slow because you have far fewer opportunities to get hits. Early game, I'd be lucky to land 5 hits before the enemies start routing and forget about running after them with 20 athletics. Not 5 kills, 5 hits. I wound up installing a mod that gives full xp in tournaments just so I could get myself up to speed in a reasonable amount of time

I don't know if having different xp rates for different troop classes would fly with players, but I think getting some xp for getting hit is an interesting idea. It does make sense. Get hit once, learn how not to get hit a second time.

Biggest problem is the morale system and the quick routing. In real life you want to make the enemy rout as quick as possible, but in a game, it works against the player. Hopefully they can tune that better and make soldiers fight a bit more boldly. Routing troops should also be more likely to regroup and come back fighting more like they'd do in viking conquest.
 
Well I sort of fixed it for myself, by replacing Sturgian noble cav with a heavy infantry 2h axe/thrown nobles. Seems like a bad idea, but it worked really well. Heavy armor + speed from athletics make them pretty fast and tanky, and the 2h axe does wonders against cav, even cav archers if you can corner them, infantry gets slaughtered, and they level up real fast because of the killing power and the fact axe can hit 2 people at once, the throwing weapons also work really well. It would be possible to give them a shield/1h against arrows, but that felt like too much min maxing. Was a nice change from the usual heavy cav charge every battle and Battanian noble archer spam, made sieges interesting lets say, and seems to fit the infantry focused Sturgians more. I will use this change when I do another campaign once some updates roll out.

Actually, I tested this before the 2h skill update, and nobles get 280 at the highest skill, so they are going to be 10x deadlier now...

I think the main issue is that infantry is just made boring, or badly designed in this game. Infantry in bl can mostly only be used as expendable damage sponges in a shield wall, or they die because of low armor, like berserkers etc, and even the best infantry is going to have to compete with noble cavalry that just have way higher skills, especially now with the perks fixed, it's not a real match. Dismounted nobles might work, but it's annoying, and you kinda need some cav anyway. All these things lead to the problems mentioned.

Another option might be spears or polearms, though I'm not sure how well this is implemented against cavalry atm.

I personally like heay infantry in wb nowadays because I'm just tired of f1 f3 cav charges, but there isn't much to choose from in bannerlord, even if they level up and all that.
 
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It's like a basketball team giving all the experience to the players who score, while players on defense get nothing, when they are actually a team and everybody plays his part.
I'd distribute experience evenly to every soldier in the battle. And battles would give experience according to number and quality of enemies compared to number and quality of friendlies.

The whole I'm getting better every time I hit is nonsense. Shooting arrows non stop is the safer and easiest way to level up. In short, they are saying if you are not a horse archer you are a moron, and horse archers is all you need.
Hmmmmm ...
But if your recruits watch crossbowmens shooting and kill, it's more like a supporter of a basketball match, not a defender.
So, i don't think sharing xp is a good way to deal with. It's the easiest way, and it's nice for the gamerplay and for avoid grinding. But i would prefer a more recompensive way for the hard training of infantry. I mean, you need to practice something to become good at, no?

So, downgrade the armor of archers, and them ability in close fight, upgrade armors and efficiency (and AI) of infantry. Make it worth it. A beast in close quarter. For exemple, if you're not ordering the shield wall, they cannot advance with the shield up. That's weird. Improve the Ai to make the infantry not this weak. Let us choose for the units which weapon using at least. They never know when using spear or blade. (But i admit that devs are working on it and improvements are made)

And low the damage of arrows. Another exemple; the linothorax armor (i know it's not the same period, but note the concept). When recreated and tested by the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, the linothorax was resistant to broad-head arrows and slashing damage of weapons with sharp edges. And it was a cheap armor, compared to a full mail.

Btw i love this game and agree with almost everyone here.
 
It's not going to fix the issues of infantry training slower than others, but you could take an "everyone's a trainer" approach - each individual healthy troop of a given tier passes on their experience to the lower tiers. For example, a tier 5 infantry might pass on 1xp/day to tier 4 stacks, 2xp/day to tier 3 stacks, etc. With just ten tier 5 infantry in your party, that's 40xp/day to your tier 1 troops. It can work at lower tiers too (ie tier 2 passes on 1xp to tier 1), so that if you have ten tier 5, ten tier 4, ten tier 3, and ten tier 2 infantry in your party, that's 40+30+20+10 = 100xp/day passed on to your tier 1 troops alone. Make it only apply while the party is resting for a more realistic "training camp" approach. With this method of training, it doesn't make it any easier to get an elite army early game, but it does mean topping up losses between battles or increasing party size in mid-game becomes less tedious.
 
+1.

Being the anvil sucks, the hammer got all the glory.

I like your idea of infantry need less xp to upgrade and they are definitely need to be cheaper than cavalry in wage.

As it stands, even the best infantry is easy target for OHK javelin and couched lance, they need some helps badly.
Armour needs a big buff too. A formation of heavy infantry with shields and mail should be very hard to dislodge.
 
This.

I spend all of my time leveling my infantry. Any decent group of looters gets killed by my infantry while the rest of my troops watch.

I like your idea to grant them xp for taking damage. It makes more sense. If they're going to be used as a meat shield for archers then give them xp for doing their job.
 
Daily experience perks should not be a flat amount of experience. They should be calculated by some formula similar to:

EXP = PerkRate * (NumTroopsInStack - NumTroopsUpgradeReady)

...or...

Have a lesser flat rate applied to all units. This would mean a change in coding to allow each unit to gain experience individually instead of exp solely applying to the stack.

This way if you have 100 recruits, you are not only training a single recruit but all recruits.
 
Changes I would like:

Once a unit reaches the point where it can no longer level, the XP it would normally get goes to other troops in the same category. So a maxed out infantry would give its xp to the rest of the infantry for what it would have earned, simulating the leadership of those units. Maybe this is already in there, the xp process isn't transparent, so I wouldn't know whats happening. If that unit can't gain and can't give to a category it goes to the party.

Less death and more wounding of 4-5-6 tier units, more death and less wounding of 1-2-3 tier. Good armor should save your life but it won't prevent injury The bigger risk to 4-5-6 should be defeat and capture, and their leveling should depend on victory more than performance at the higher tier. Sort of as the OP said, Treat the army as a team and spread out the experience evenly , but I don't think that should be the only way they get XP.

Easier leveling of tiers 1 and 2, by about 50%. By the time they are T3 they are a good addition to your T4-5-6 troops. Having to fight looters for an hour to raise t1 to t3 while the rest of your army holds arrows gets old. I've started sending them outnumbered to their death so that the wounded will get upgraded, or as a very cheap meatshield in front of the rest of the army in larger engagements where charging them wouldn't result in kills.

Easier low level tier leveling might have unintended effects on AI armies.

More "troops" of t1-2-3 and less "prisoners", more prisoners of t4-5-6 and less troops. Carrying prisoners slows you down so much that when you get a party size of over 150 you can about stop taking prisoners unless you know you'll dump them soon. This could be a perk. Getting more troops of t2-3 especially could help reduce the need to train provided youre willing to use all troop types.

As OP said, Give infantry units a significant amount of experience for receiving damage

As others have said


1. Training skills - these are extremely weak and need to be buffed.

I agree, theyre too weak

Armour needs a big buff too

Careful, or you get bad results with this. Buff it in small amounts per patch, and only for infantry right now. Just adjust the numbers up in the table, should be trivial.

I spend all of my time leveling my infantry


At first, yeah, and then around party size 130 ish you have a good core and you can add 30-50 recruits and they die a lot but there's sort of a cycle and training is less needed. I am regularly defeating lords on challenging with an infantry / archer mix this time around, about 20 hours into it now.

My cruelty is becoming more refined :smile:

I do wish that cycle would come along earlier than clan tier 4. More often than not before that you lose too many t4-5-6 troops to do it without training your t1-2-3's first.

I could rant for hours about this stuff. It's just my opinions.
 
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