Changes to the training skill
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Daveybaby
Recruit
How about this for an outline of a training formula:
current formula is probably something like this:
daily training experience = B * S
Where:
B = the base value for daily training experience
S = the training skill level
New formula:
daily training experience = B * S * E * D
Where:
E = the experience level of the unit being trained - so training points increase as the unit's level increases, which means that training continues to progress at a fair rate.
D = is a scaling factor based on the difference between the experience level of the unit being trained and the character doing the training.
D = (trainer's level - trainee's level) / trainer's level.
So D starts at 1.0 when the trainee is at level 0, and decreases as the trainee's level increases relative to the trainer's, ending up at 0.0 if the trainee is at the same level as (or greater than) the trainer.
The overall effect of this formula: a unit being trained will gain experience levels at a constant rate initially, but this will slow down as their experience level approaches that of the trainer.
Sorry if that's a bit mathsy. Thoughts?
current formula is probably something like this:
daily training experience = B * S
Where:
B = the base value for daily training experience
S = the training skill level
New formula:
daily training experience = B * S * E * D
Where:
E = the experience level of the unit being trained - so training points increase as the unit's level increases, which means that training continues to progress at a fair rate.
D = is a scaling factor based on the difference between the experience level of the unit being trained and the character doing the training.
D = (trainer's level - trainee's level) / trainer's level.
So D starts at 1.0 when the trainee is at level 0, and decreases as the trainee's level increases relative to the trainer's, ending up at 0.0 if the trainee is at the same level as (or greater than) the trainer.
The overall effect of this formula: a unit being trained will gain experience levels at a constant rate initially, but this will slow down as their experience level approaches that of the trainer.
Sorry if that's a bit mathsy. Thoughts?
AlienKnight
Veteran
I find the idea itself is most reasonable. It is true in the real world people working (or fighting 
) together learn and gain skill / experience from each other.
Therfore, why the recruits should not avail from being a member of the party of experience soldiers? Why only the PC and the NPCs could teach the troops? No reason - except that it is extremely difficult to architecture and implement a very high level of complexity into a computer game. M&B is very complex already, anyway.
I vote yes
A simple solution is perhaps to assign some trainer skills to the high-level units, like e.g. a swadian knight could have the trainer skill of 7 and so on... As for the PC and NPC, the trainer skill could increase with time, so if you have a swadian knight in your company for 3 months, the trainer skill gets 8, then after some time it get more and more... with reasonable maximum value.
On the other hand, I do not find it to be a problem to develop the troops, actually I find they advance in skill much faster then in the "real life" anyway and thus perhaps the gameplay is a bit off-balance. I do not mean it is bad, you can't get to much real in a game as it involves the risk of killing the gameplay and make it enjoyable only for the hardcore players.
And that's the point to mind. To be able to have all the highest level troops with no problem and in no time would become boring very soon, I think.
) together learn and gain skill / experience from each other.Therfore, why the recruits should not avail from being a member of the party of experience soldiers? Why only the PC and the NPCs could teach the troops? No reason - except that it is extremely difficult to architecture and implement a very high level of complexity into a computer game. M&B is very complex already, anyway.
I vote yes
A simple solution is perhaps to assign some trainer skills to the high-level units, like e.g. a swadian knight could have the trainer skill of 7 and so on... As for the PC and NPC, the trainer skill could increase with time, so if you have a swadian knight in your company for 3 months, the trainer skill gets 8, then after some time it get more and more... with reasonable maximum value.
On the other hand, I do not find it to be a problem to develop the troops, actually I find they advance in skill much faster then in the "real life" anyway and thus perhaps the gameplay is a bit off-balance. I do not mean it is bad, you can't get to much real in a game as it involves the risk of killing the gameplay and make it enjoyable only for the hardcore players.
Archonsod said:
And that's the point to mind. To be able to have all the highest level troops with no problem and in no time would become boring very soon, I think.
Mini Marine
Sergeant at Arms
training seems fine the way it is, it helps get the low level troops up to a decent level where they can actually hold their own in combat, and gain their experience through kills from that point on.
Gruffel
Recruit
I don't get where the problem is...
I actually do train Swadian Recruits up to Swadian Knights quite regularely...it would be cool if there were more steps and troops diversifications...
But as soon as I got ma Men at Arms or Knights...I put them into a garrison and recruit green troops and train em up too
I actually do train Swadian Recruits up to Swadian Knights quite regularely...it would be cool if there were more steps and troops diversifications...
But as soon as I got ma Men at Arms or Knights...I put them into a garrison and recruit green troops and train em up too
Mini Marine
Sergeant at Arms
I don't bow...I salute those of higher rank, but I'm not big on the bowing thing.
kamini
Recruit
The problem with that is that it would not scale well. The problem now is that the training only works on low level troops and that would just make the problem even worse because they would train up instantly if you made it give enough exp to train the higher level guys worth a damn.
Fudgynumnums
Sergeant
Seconded.Mini Marine said:
Saint of Blood
Recruit
I disagree with you saying that trainining is pointless right now.
Whenever I need more units ((For stationing a garrison, etc.)), i can recruit some guys, and have them to Swadian men At Arms withing a couple of days. ((My training skill is 8.))
So, I think it's very helpfuil, as I can get people all the way up to knight through training.
Whenever I need more units ((For stationing a garrison, etc.)), i can recruit some guys, and have them to Swadian men At Arms withing a couple of days. ((My training skill is 8.))
So, I think it's very helpfuil, as I can get people all the way up to knight through training.
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
I think the training is too fast, at the moment, for realism. How can a peasant be trained, even with the help of a couple of battles, to the level of a man-at-arms, (that's a professional, full-time fighting man) within a week or 10 days?
It should, realistically, take months.
And archers - it takes years to develop the physique to handle a longbow with 60 or 80 Kg.s draw. Yet the game takes a townsman, or a random 'village lad willing to seek his fortune in war' and within max. 2 weeks, if they are still alive, they are wielding longbows!
Maybe the game needs to assign some attributes to low-level troops, randomly, and make training a much longer-term thing. The randomly assigned attributes would allow low level troops to hold their own if used effectively: For example, Swadian recruits might be given +3 in powerstrike, or +100 in 1-handed-weaponskills, or +(1 Strength and 50 Crossbow) to reflect the national tendency towards strong melee troops and crossbowmen; Khergit recruits would be assigned at random from +3 riding, or +3 power draw, or +3 horse-archery, or +100 archery - to reflect the national tendency towards mounted archers,
Obviously there would need to be a mechanism for identifying what your recruits were actually good at, and then using them accordingly (ie, choosing the right upgrade path when they were eventually upgrade-able).
This does move away from the question of the training skill a bit, but it's something we created in a mod a while ago, namely that after the first 24hours with your party, 'recruits' (we used 'villager' for every culture) are randomly swapped out for specialist recruits.
the script (paraphrased) was
count number of trp_village_recruit = x
remove x village recruit
get random in range (village rogue, village smith) 'new_troop'
add x number of troops 'new_troop' to party
the range 'village rogue, village smith' included a rogue (skirmisher-skill) a stable-hand (horse skills) a labourer (infantry) and a smith (infantry)
so your initial recruit had a 50% chance of being destined for infantry life, and 25% each chance of being suitable for cavalry or skirmisher work.
The troop level didn't increase with this change, but their attributes did, to reflect what they were good at, and the potential upgrade paths also changed. The script ran every 24 hours, basically on the assumption that after a couple of meals & beers around the campfire, any new recruit would have spoken out about what he used to do and be...
I know some people don't like this system, because it smacks of fatalism (once a ****-kicker, always a Swadian Crossbowman)
but for us, it works, because it allows the upgrade tree to branch off at a much lower level, it gives low-level troops a useful specialisation very quickly without making them supertroops, and it means you don't have the unrealistic situation of every recruit being suitable for heavy cavalry (or whatever other specialisation).
It should, realistically, take months.
And archers - it takes years to develop the physique to handle a longbow with 60 or 80 Kg.s draw. Yet the game takes a townsman, or a random 'village lad willing to seek his fortune in war' and within max. 2 weeks, if they are still alive, they are wielding longbows!
Maybe the game needs to assign some attributes to low-level troops, randomly, and make training a much longer-term thing. The randomly assigned attributes would allow low level troops to hold their own if used effectively: For example, Swadian recruits might be given +3 in powerstrike, or +100 in 1-handed-weaponskills, or +(1 Strength and 50 Crossbow) to reflect the national tendency towards strong melee troops and crossbowmen; Khergit recruits would be assigned at random from +3 riding, or +3 power draw, or +3 horse-archery, or +100 archery - to reflect the national tendency towards mounted archers,
Obviously there would need to be a mechanism for identifying what your recruits were actually good at, and then using them accordingly (ie, choosing the right upgrade path when they were eventually upgrade-able).
This does move away from the question of the training skill a bit, but it's something we created in a mod a while ago, namely that after the first 24hours with your party, 'recruits' (we used 'villager' for every culture) are randomly swapped out for specialist recruits.
the script (paraphrased) was
count number of trp_village_recruit = x
remove x village recruit
get random in range (village rogue, village smith) 'new_troop'
add x number of troops 'new_troop' to party
the range 'village rogue, village smith' included a rogue (skirmisher-skill) a stable-hand (horse skills) a labourer (infantry) and a smith (infantry)
so your initial recruit had a 50% chance of being destined for infantry life, and 25% each chance of being suitable for cavalry or skirmisher work.
The troop level didn't increase with this change, but their attributes did, to reflect what they were good at, and the potential upgrade paths also changed. The script ran every 24 hours, basically on the assumption that after a couple of meals & beers around the campfire, any new recruit would have spoken out about what he used to do and be...
I know some people don't like this system, because it smacks of fatalism (once a ****-kicker, always a Swadian Crossbowman)
but for us, it works, because it allows the upgrade tree to branch off at a much lower level, it gives low-level troops a useful specialisation very quickly without making them supertroops, and it means you don't have the unrealistic situation of every recruit being suitable for heavy cavalry (or whatever other specialisation).
Oskatat
Squire
thank you for that last post. Everyone is moaning about training not getting to high levels... but
be realistic! normally it would take months, years to train an individual to knight level, and that is only if you start at the age of 12 or 14 or so. Most importantly, and i really want to stress that point, at some stage in your training, no matter how sophisticated your training is, you'll need hands on experience. In this case, training for battle is not a substitute for being in a battle. Earlier levels may be about training weapon skills, later levels would be about having actual fighting experience. No wonder your training skill isnt as effective anymore! Also, if you turn from troop captain to a full general, you're usually not supposed to actually train your troops yourself much, so indeed, at higher levels you should have different worries
If you want to level your troops unrealistically quick, or at least, even more so, turn on cheats and use ctrl-x
and why is the skill useless? yes, later on its easier to recruit from defeated enemies... sounds realistic to me. However, if you ever find yourself soundly defeated, with just your companions at your side, at least it wont take too long to raise at least a semblance of your former troops, 1 week should do
maybe you want something else... a way to buy knights or other high tier troops from your king or other lords?
to restate the most important point: at some point, training should be near useless and only actual experience will help a unit to progress. That is called realism and at least a tiny trickle of it should be in the game
be realistic! normally it would take months, years to train an individual to knight level, and that is only if you start at the age of 12 or 14 or so. Most importantly, and i really want to stress that point, at some stage in your training, no matter how sophisticated your training is, you'll need hands on experience. In this case, training for battle is not a substitute for being in a battle. Earlier levels may be about training weapon skills, later levels would be about having actual fighting experience. No wonder your training skill isnt as effective anymore! Also, if you turn from troop captain to a full general, you're usually not supposed to actually train your troops yourself much, so indeed, at higher levels you should have different worries
If you want to level your troops unrealistically quick, or at least, even more so, turn on cheats and use ctrl-x
and why is the skill useless? yes, later on its easier to recruit from defeated enemies... sounds realistic to me. However, if you ever find yourself soundly defeated, with just your companions at your side, at least it wont take too long to raise at least a semblance of your former troops, 1 week should do
maybe you want something else... a way to buy knights or other high tier troops from your king or other lords?
to restate the most important point: at some point, training should be near useless and only actual experience will help a unit to progress. That is called realism and at least a tiny trickle of it should be in the game
Yes, it's too effective to be realistic itself. If both realism and speed of the training skill is wanted, maybe such a model can be implemented:
Exchange troops with ones who are of the next tier if your higher level troops have a high enough total training skill and gained enough experience. That would convince the traders (slavers or a newer class) that their troops wouldn't be wasted on you. Also, to not put them in a deficit, you should pay them some denars.
Exchange troops with ones who are of the next tier if your higher level troops have a high enough total training skill and gained enough experience. That would convince the traders (slavers or a newer class) that their troops wouldn't be wasted on you. Also, to not put them in a deficit, you should pay them some denars.
PrinceGhaldir
Training skill is good enough, I just want those stupid peasants not getting smashed up by some forest bandits, they just need to survive.
And you don't need a veteran-elite-trained-onyx-templar-knight-lord-commander to do that, tier 2-3 is good enough.
And you don't need a veteran-elite-trained-onyx-templar-knight-lord-commander to do that, tier 2-3 is good enough.
de Worth
Regular
I am under the impression that the Training skill "stacks" between party members? At the moment I have like 8 party members/companions that grow in level/have stats (a long with a 60+ man entourage) and I have invested into training for all of these people and have seen increased experience being shared at the end of the day... or at least so I think. Can anyone confirm this? Do party-boosting skills "stack" between party members?
Oskatat
Squire
check the faq for skills
trainer doesnt really stack, its just counted for each trainer seperately, keeping in mind their level for who they affect.
say you and 5 companions all have trainer 2. 6x2 isnt trainer 12, but is still 6x2. If you are all higher lvl than the troops, you will all put full xp in each unit. say that 15 units are below you and 2 companions and 15 are below all of you and your companions, 15 troops will get xp for 3xlvl 2 trainer per unit, and 15 troops will get xp for 6x lvl 3 trainer
the trainer skill adds xp point from each individual that has it that is a higher level than another troop. It is unique in this respect among all other skills
trainer doesnt really stack, its just counted for each trainer seperately, keeping in mind their level for who they affect.
say you and 5 companions all have trainer 2. 6x2 isnt trainer 12, but is still 6x2. If you are all higher lvl than the troops, you will all put full xp in each unit. say that 15 units are below you and 2 companions and 15 are below all of you and your companions, 15 troops will get xp for 3xlvl 2 trainer per unit, and 15 troops will get xp for 6x lvl 3 trainer
the trainer skill adds xp point from each individual that has it that is a higher level than another troop. It is unique in this respect among all other skills
HugoC
Regular
Absolutely. I got my first town the other day, and my warband was about 75 men (all lancers or veteran horse archers). I was panicing a bit about an instant recapture by the enemy, so I set myself a target of 300 elite troops guarding the town. I achieved that inside 3 months, very much due to nearly all my party having at least some Training. I don't think I ever started a fight with a Tribesman (only been recruiting from Rhodoks and Khergit villages) and the last two Nords I rescued took an age (maybe a week) to move from Veteran to Huscarl, and that was with some pretty intense combat thrown in.Oskatat said:
Oo. Yes please. That too. And the ability to sell them my units sometimes as well
And buy their prisoners off them.I'm all for realism. I like verisimilitude nearly as much.
Zbullock0597
Banned
I read through a couple of these and I have seven training and I can train a khergit tribesman to a lancer in a week of no fighting so I think its pretty useful.
Ollie1988
Recruit
with this being a game you cant have realistic levelling as it takes literally years to train up a fighting force that was good with a longbow and if in this game it took that long it would be hellishly boring, you need something like they have already i belive the training is pretty good it gets the ****ty recruits up to a certain level but like in real life no-one would level high enough sitting around you must have combat experience, so best way to level people up (and although i havent been playing on this game very much i have literally levelled about 600 khergit lancers and about the same amount of Nord huscarls) most from scratch, is to recuit at the bottom and then wait in a friendly castle, making sure of two things 1. you have enough food etc 2. you have enough money for it too, and then wait about a week or so in this castle levelling up your recruits as it says. this will get them to a certian level but not to the top level then go out and pick a fight with a lord with slightly more men than you (pointless going for the kings etc with 200+ as you will get wiped) and once you have beaten them and you have some top levels then go looking for kings a you will match their elite and have no weaknesses, then get ome more recruits and just fight with the elites and the recuits still get the exp form your battles creating you quite a large base of elite units.
