Cavalry issues

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Namakan

Master Knight
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Quite a few people have recently they said they still believe cavalry to be OP. I don't agree with that, mainly for the following 3 reasons (suggestions to fix below):

1. Cavalry can be reared very easily, even from the back or the side
VIDEO
As you can see on the video, cavalry can not only be reared from the side or the back, but also at very low speeds, allowing infantry (if they managed to time their hits and distance correctly) to effectively stop a stopped cavalry from escaping - this is especially rough in tighter spaces where you don't have a whole field to escape into like I did in most of the testing clips.

2. Couch lance damage is inconsistent

VIDEO
I've already described this in another thread a while back, but the targets movement direction has far too high of an impact on the damage dealt by a couch lance.
I believe that couch lances should be able to one hit kill all infantry and most horses once you reach a decent speed. Right now, if I manage to catch someone off guard (= they are running away from me with their back open) and hit them with a couch lance, most often they will not die.

3. Normal Stabs are also inconsistent

VIDEO
I sadly don't have as many clips of it but I believe that anyone who plays cavalry regularly will be able to tell of similar things happening to them, where they should have hit someone/something else than they actually did. Personally, I especially notice this when trying to help out an infantry fighting another infantry, but I have also had multiple instances where I hit the horse rather than it's rider who I was aiming for.

Suggestions:

  • Fix rearing. It should work from the front and some angle to the sides. More than in 1.4.3, but less than we have right now. It should also not affect horses going at very low speeds (e.g. just starting to move again after being reared)
  • Drastically reduce the impact the targets movement speed has on couch lance damage. In return, ADD COOLDOWNS TO COUCHLANCES and/or decrease the horses maneuverability if its rider is using a couch lance
  • Fix normal stabs.
I've seen some people complain that the main issues with cavalry they have are bumps, how they throw you down for a couple of seconds and there's nothing you can do about it. I agree with them that bumps should NOT knock you down as long, and I'd appreciate it if that was looked at as well. I would however like to add that e1.5.0 has drastically lowered how often you actually bump someone down as cav though, which is something you might not really notice as an infantry player.

There are other things about cavalry to which changes could be discussed, but I would appreciate it if we could keep this thread dedicated to the things listed above. Cheers.


thanks @Rangah for helping with the videos
 

Mabons

Knight at Arms
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All of these are broken because of the botched way they calculate damage based on the speed things are doing. Yeah it might be "realistic"(if it even is) but it doesn't feel right or fair in certain cases. Hitboxes for cav is also really VERY strange, I'm sure @Rangah can point them out with a few of his videos but getting them tighter and working properly will also help 1 and 3.
 
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I think one thing that needs to be addressed is the difficulty in bumping. Compared to warband, it feels more difficult to control horses to maneuver quickly short range. When bumped, the effect is extremely significant but it’s very difficult when going up against someone with a little skill. One trade off I propose is making bumps easier but the full knocking away bumps harder/shorter.

Anyways, I agree with what you are proposing. The damage for couched Lance is quite broken and rearing seems to be too easy in this patch
 

Aprikosenmann

Squire
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Pike rearing - The horse takes 32/240 hp damage. The pike cannot follow up any hit. And pike cannot be used on skirmish for alot of reasons.

Double rearing - After rearing a horse you always want to hit the rider one time. If the inf goes for the double rear, which is easy to spot, just don't press double W and leave without any damage taken.


 
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Namakan

Master Knight
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Pike rearing - The horse takes 32/240 hp damage. The pike cannot follow up any hit. And pike cannot be used on skirmish for alot of reasons.
You do realize it works with any spear, yes? The damage is that low because of the angle he hits the horse at. He isn't following up because those tests were to check angles - hitting the horse again right away means less tests until I need a new horse, which is another 200 gold I need to get.
Double rearing - After rearing a horse you always want to hit the rider one time. If the inf goes for the double rear, which is easy to spot, just don't press double W and leave without any damage taken.
Why would I want to go for a hit on the rider when I can just shred his horse first and then him? Not pressing WW just means hanging around longer = more damage dealt to the horse and still does not guarantee me getting away because he can rear my horse FROM BEHIND.

So after what looks like 3-4 attempts that you didn't show us, you managed to turn away on an open field. I already mentioned in the OP that usually, you won't have that much space to turn away, and usually you will want to get away faster than that because a) the enemy infantry isn't waiting an extra second to hit you again and b) the enemy infantry likely has other infantries/archers around him that are ready to gun you down. Stop seeing everything as 1v1.
You released your hit too late.
 
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Rangah

Sergeant Knight
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Damage is scuffed in all of these tests due to it being a heavy armored horse, which I could agree with being too little, but on the other hand, what is the point of paying 200g for a single spawn?

The point is about the angles from sides/behind being able to rear and rearing get triggered at too low speeds, chain rearing can be avoided in a 1v1, yes, but what if there's another spear guy behind you as you turn around? Take a look at the two clips in krex's rearing video starting at 1:25 - what mistakes did he do exactly?

It went from being a gamble to rear cavalry to the complete opposite with e1.5.0.
 

Aprikosenmann

Squire
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Damage is scuffed in all of these tests due to it being a heavy armored horse, which I could agree with being too little, but on the other hand, what is the point of paying 200g for a single spawn?

The point is about the angles from sides/behind being able to rear and rearing get triggered at too low speeds, chain rearing can be avoided in a 1v1, yes, but what if there's another spear guy behind you as you turn around? Take a look at the two clips in krex's rearing video starting at 1:25 - what mistakes did he do exactly?

It went from being a gamble to rear cavalry to the complete opposite with e1.5.0.
The spear is the COUNTER to cav. If a cav player is standing still infront of me I need like 10-20hits to kill his horse. If he charges into me fullspeed I need 4-6 hits. Idk seems wrong to me.

Rearing from behind should never happen I completely agree.

His first clip his horse gets 30dmg from a 90degree pike. He could have stayed out of range.
Second clip he gets reared from behind, that should be removed.
Third clip he is not changing direction even though its a 1v1 and ontop of that he is spamming WW. He could just have turned around and go away.
 

Firunien

Grandmaster Knight
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The spear is the COUNTER to cav. If a cav player is standing still infront of me I need like 10-20hits to kill his horse. If he charges into me fullspeed I need 4-6 hits. Idk seems wrong to me.

Rearing from behind should never happen I completely agree.
.
This only applies for armoured horses with like 40 armour, unarmoured horses get slaughtered with ease.
 

Rangah

Sergeant Knight
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The spear is the COUNTER to cav. If a cav player is standing still infront of me I need like 10-20hits to kill his horse. If he charges into me fullspeed I need 4-6 hits. Idk seems wrong to me.

Rearing from behind should never happen I completely agree.

His first clip his horse gets 30dmg from a 90degree pike. He could have stayed out of range.
Second clip he gets reared from behind, that should be removed.
Third clip he is not changing direction even though its a 1v1 and ontop of that he is spamming WW. He could just have turned around and go away.
Do you think 90 degree rearing is okay?

Spears are there to stop cav so the player is completely incapacitated for a couple seconds, allowing your TEAMMATES to finish him off. A throwing axe or a headshot from an archer does that quite swiftly. You also get a free second hit on the cav even if you are in a 1v1. In a 1v1 vs an infantry with a spear, cavalry can never win unless the infantry does a mistake.

This only applies for armoured horses with like 40 armour, unarmoured horses get slaughtered with ease.
This is also a point I'd like to reiterate, light horses die very easily. This includes spears.
 
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SondiRWolf

Regular
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The spear is the COUNTER to cav. If a cav player is standing still infront of me I need like 10-20hits to kill his horse. If he charges into me fullspeed I need 4-6 hits. Idk seems wrong to me.

Rearing from behind should never happen I completely agree.

His first clip his horse gets 30dmg from a 90degree pike. He could have stayed out of range.
Second clip he gets reared from behind, that should be removed.
Third clip he is not changing direction even though its a 1v1 and ontop of that he is spamming WW. He could just have turned around and go away.
Yes i was just about to say that, i noticed he only did the double W and not just turn and then double W. Also most of these problems seems to be a base problem with the game not cavalry in specific. Infantry got the exact same problems with hitboxes/unreliable damage on stabs and so on.
 

Namakan

Master Knight
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The spear is the COUNTER to cav. If a cav player is standing still infront of me I need like 10-20hits to kill his horse. If he charges into me fullspeed I need 4-6 hits. Idk seems wrong to me.
If a cav player is standing still infront of you, take out your primary weapon and hit him with that. For a heavy, armored horse I personally think that 4-6 spear hits at high speed are fine. Please remember it's not the only source the horse will take damage from - archers, thrown weapons, hits when stopped, other cavs...

His first clip his horse gets 30dmg from a 90degree pike. He could have stayed out of range.
Second clip he gets reared from behind, that should be removed.
Third clip he is not changing direction even though its a 1v1 and ontop of that he is spamming WW. He could just have turned around and go away.
First clip I think the angle is still too big. Damage would have been higher had he released his hit from a little more distance.
Second clip we agree on.
Third clip I should have not ran into, that was the wrong move, correct. I should however have been able to escape to the front IMO. Turning would not have been smart because I would have been hit myself, while already being on relatively low hp.
 

SondiRWolf

Regular
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Do you think 90 degree rearing is okay?

Spears are there to stop cav so the player is completely incapacitated for a couple seconds, allowing your TEAMMATES to finish him off. A throwing axe or a headshot from an archer does that quite swiftly. You also get a free second hit on the cav even if you are in a 1v1. In a 1v1 vs an infantry with a spear, cavalry can never win unless the infantry does a mistake.
Cavalry should never win 1v1 vs an infantry w/spear. I don't understand, people seem to believe that cavalry should be able just to run around and poke everyone in the face without having any downsides. Cavalry is class to be played as a harasser/support class. You are supposed to help your teammates in 1v1/2v2, help killing archers in teamfights and so on, not go in 1v2 and think you are not getting punished. Rearing from behind shouldn't be a thing, i think side rearing up to 90 degrees should be a thing with light cavalry and rearing up to 45-55 ish degrees should be thing with heavy cavalry.
 

Rangah

Sergeant Knight
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Cavalry should never win 1v1 vs an infantry w/spear.
No, it shouldn't. And it already doesn't unless the infantry messes up.

Cavalry is class to be played as a harasser/support class. You are supposed to help your teammates in 1v1/2v2, help killing archers in teamfights and so on, not go in 1v2 and think you are not getting punished.
And this how it already plays and that's great. The point of this thread is to highlight rearing angles being broken amongst other issues.
 

SondiRWolf

Regular
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If a cav player is standing still infront of you, take out your primary weapon and hit him with that. For a heavy, armored horse I personally think that 4-6 spear hits at high speed are fine. Please remember it's not the only source the horse will take damage from - archers, thrown weapons, hits when stopped, other cavs...


First clip I think the angle is still too big. Damage would have been higher had he released his hit from a little more distance.
Second clip we agree on.
Third clip I should have not ran into, that was the wrong move, correct. I should however have been able to escape to the front IMO. Turning would not have been smart because I would have been hit myself, while already being on relatively low hp.
Remember with the new weapon switch animation that came with 1.5, changing your spear to your primary weapon won't really work. The cavalry will be able to escape when he sees you do that. Unless you have a teammate helping you of course but then again if the cavalry is in a situation where he is against 2 players alone, is it his/team or the game's fault?
 

SondiRWolf

Regular
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And this how it already plays and that's great. The point of this thread is to highlight rearing angles being broken amongst other issues.
Yes i see the problem with rearing angles and i also answered that with a suggestion in my reply.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
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Some of the rearing looks like it's somewhat due to lag, considering that horses move extremely fast (even heavily armoured ones) that's going to be difficult to fix. I do think the angle is a little harsh, but not by a lot.

Cav can also still bounce off of walls and hard obstacles unless they hit it dead on. I'd make the environment rearing more punishing, and very slightly reduce the angle for polearm rearing.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
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I dont think that cav is necessarily a balance problem. Its just boring af to sit with a spear and wait till something happens. Playing with spears generally is boring, its just a slow block attack ping pong.

Cav can also still bounce off of walls and hard obstacles unless they hit it dead on. I'd make the environment rearing more punishing, and very slightly reduce the angle for polearm rearing.
With 1h weapons cav can sit right next to you and its hard to hit the rider fast enough because lances are just 3x as fast compared to warband. Furthermore, you might just bounce of the horse anyways. They dont need to use their mobility to help an inf in 2v1 they can just sit their and facetank. That and the wall bouncing makes it very hard to even punish cav.

They should just limit spears super hard and nerf cav down completly. Its not fun to play spears and not fun to play against.
 
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I think a good solution would be enable cav rearing based on damage. If damage is =/> than (x) then enable it. I think this might work with few testing and tweaks because damage is calculated based on relative speed. So, if you hit a horse from behind, he will never rear because you have less relative speed and damage, and if you hit it from the front and the horse is still or walking it shouldn't rear... This effectiveness would also vary according to the base damage of the weapon, so pikes should be better than spears in that regard.