corwin_of_amber
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Korinov said:
Hi, sorry for the late reply. I am not logging on here as regularly as I used to. I will look up into the list and see what can be changed.
Byzantium/Romans info for warband 1200
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Hi, sorry for the late reply. I am not logging on here as regularly as I used to. I will look up into the list and see what can be changed.
Nike, would it be possible to add a few more villages to Constantinople? We have a lot of lords tied to it and it would feel a bit odd to randomly assign them some fiefs hundreds of miles away (i.e. people with court positions, mostly urban nobility).
Corwin, I've managed to get my hands on "Cities, Fortresses and Villages of Byzantine Asia Minor", by Clive Foss. If you need some help with those reassignments I can give a hand
Corwin, I've managed to get my hands on "Cities, Fortresses and Villages of Byzantine Asia Minor", by Clive Foss. If you need some help with those reassignments I can give a hand
Inanch-Bilge
İğneada is probably a newer settlement from Ottoman era.
I've been looking for a few additional lords just to fill some gaps. We certainly have a shortage of lords for Asia Minor so most of the relatively unknown sebastos at the end of Nike's list will probably be assigned there. But I've managed to find a few more named lords for Greece:
- Leon Chamaretos, local magnate (archon) in Monemvasia, dominated the Laconian region (i.e. he could be ruler of Lakedaimonia village).
- Georgios Daimonoyannis, who held the pompous rank of protopansevastohyperbatos, ruler of the island of Kythira near Monemvasia.
- Alexius Kapandrites, a true robber baron who completely dominated western Macedonia with his private army.
Also Michael Choniates should probably be included as a lord ruling over Athens, as he was probably the closest thing to a 'de facto' ruler the town had at the moment. I know we've been reticent to put orthodox bishops in power positions similar to their western counterparts, but in this case I'm willing to make an exception.
There's also Ioannes Kantakouzenos, member of the extremely wealthy and influential Kantakouzenos family, said to have "huge states" in the Peloponessus and other parts of Greece. It seems he retired from military duty after 1186, but considering his - probable - grandfather died in Myriokephalon in 1176, I think it would be probable for Ioannes to be alive around 1200, so a fief could be assigned to him as well.
I've also tried to find the name of the governor of Epirus by 1200, whose daughter was married to Michael Komnenos Doukas, but to no avail. There's a source from the late 13th century ("Life of Saint Theodora Petraliphina of Arta") that narrates Michael's rise to power in Epirus a bit different and names the governor Senacherim... that source looks like pure propaganda but I guess we could use the name? We don't have anything better, and I simply don't want to leave a power vacuum in the whole Nicopolis theme.
We know a greek archon from Messenia allied himself with Geoffrey Villehardouin after the 4th crusade but we do not know his name.
I'm also thinking about including Nauplion as castle and Argos as its village (both owned by Leo Sgouros), as Hellas/Peloponese seems to have enjoyed a relative prosperity in the late 12th century (despite Michael Choniates' claims), while on the map the region looks a bit depopulated.
- Leon Chamaretos, local magnate (archon) in Monemvasia, dominated the Laconian region (i.e. he could be ruler of Lakedaimonia village).
- Georgios Daimonoyannis, who held the pompous rank of protopansevastohyperbatos, ruler of the island of Kythira near Monemvasia.
- Alexius Kapandrites, a true robber baron who completely dominated western Macedonia with his private army.
Also Michael Choniates should probably be included as a lord ruling over Athens, as he was probably the closest thing to a 'de facto' ruler the town had at the moment. I know we've been reticent to put orthodox bishops in power positions similar to their western counterparts, but in this case I'm willing to make an exception.
There's also Ioannes Kantakouzenos, member of the extremely wealthy and influential Kantakouzenos family, said to have "huge states" in the Peloponessus and other parts of Greece. It seems he retired from military duty after 1186, but considering his - probable - grandfather died in Myriokephalon in 1176, I think it would be probable for Ioannes to be alive around 1200, so a fief could be assigned to him as well.
I've also tried to find the name of the governor of Epirus by 1200, whose daughter was married to Michael Komnenos Doukas, but to no avail. There's a source from the late 13th century ("Life of Saint Theodora Petraliphina of Arta") that narrates Michael's rise to power in Epirus a bit different and names the governor Senacherim... that source looks like pure propaganda but I guess we could use the name? We don't have anything better, and I simply don't want to leave a power vacuum in the whole Nicopolis theme.
We know a greek archon from Messenia allied himself with Geoffrey Villehardouin after the 4th crusade but we do not know his name.
I'm also thinking about including Nauplion as castle and Argos as its village (both owned by Leo Sgouros), as Hellas/Peloponese seems to have enjoyed a relative prosperity in the late 12th century (despite Michael Choniates' claims), while on the map the region looks a bit depopulated.
MihailoSRB
May I see the full list of lords?
Just to see if I know some lords that aren't mentioned yet.
Just to see if I know some lords that aren't mentioned yet.
Senacherim is not used as a name, but as an insult, an epithet, meaning something like "destroyer, savage etc". It's definitely not what a Byzantine lord would use for himself.
Also, we already have Chamaretos in the previous lists (Black Scythe's+Corwin's and mine). Otherwise, great job, mate!
As for Ineada, I saw it on a map of this period, but can't find any other info about it (post-Roman and pre-Ottoman), so I guess you're right, Inanch Bilge.
Also, we already have Chamaretos in the previous lists (Black Scythe's+Corwin's and mine). Otherwise, great job, mate!
As for Ineada, I saw it on a map of this period, but can't find any other info about it (post-Roman and pre-Ottoman), so I guess you're right, Inanch Bilge.
mihailo.razvigor said:
Previous page, here
NikeBG said:
Ah, what a pity. Now Epirus is 'lordless' again... we'll have to improvise, I guess some of those unknown sebastoi will have to do.
Also, we already have Chamaretos in the previous lists (Black Scythe's+Corwin's and mine). Otherwise, great job, mate!
**** I'm f***ing blind
Hmm, I should check (if I have time and availability) about the raids of Manuel Kamytzes and Dobromir Hriz in Thessaly - maybe some lord from Epiros could be mentioned as offering resistance (or joining them).
Btw, if you need more settlements for the city, in the place of Ineada we could have Neapolis. I'm pretty sure it existed in our time, as I remember it being mentioned by Villehardouin several times (btw, his accounts could provide even more, if needed, I guess). And, of course, we could use some on the Asian coast, like Chalcedon f.e.
Though I really liked the Nike option...
Btw, if you need more settlements for the city, in the place of Ineada we could have Neapolis. I'm pretty sure it existed in our time, as I remember it being mentioned by Villehardouin several times (btw, his accounts could provide even more, if needed, I guess). And, of course, we could use some on the Asian coast, like Chalcedon f.e.
Though I really liked the Nike option...
MihailoSRB
Thank you.Korinov said:
Nike, a long time ago, we talked about some Bulgarian Lords in our PMs.
More precisely, I think we talked about Ivan Tihomir, suggested on this list as a Lord of Skopje.
Now, I might be drunk, but haven't we mentioned two of them?
Tihomir and another one. I think he's Bulgarian too, from the same region.
Ring a bell?
Oh, I need to mention this too - Emperor Alexios had 3 daughters, I believe, while one of them is already in the game.
She's the wife of the Serbian ruler Stefan, so you only need to make a connection between them (if you haven't already).
I don't remember mentioning a second Byz-BG lord in that region. Ivan Tihomir was possibly an ancestor of the later Tsar Konstantin Tih Asen (1257-127, so maybe that's who you're thinking of. Or maybe you're thinking of Dobromir Hriz, who changed sides between Byzantium and Bulgaria several times?
, so maybe that's who you're thinking of. Or maybe you're thinking of Dobromir Hriz, who changed sides between Byzantium and Bulgaria several times?
Black_Scythe
Knight
What other factions apart from BE are you guys working on for the next release?
MihailoSRB
No, I'm sure I found 2 of the lords, both from Skopje region (one of them was Ivan T, of course).NikeBG said:I don't remember mentioning a second Byz-BG lord in that region. Ivan Tihomir was possibly an ancestor of the later Tsar Konstantin Tih Asen (1257-127
Dammit, I can't remember!
Maybe I found it in Homatian's writings?
Hmmm... I'll have to check.
MihailoSRB
I might have found three Byzantine lords that are not on our list.
They aren't from the year 1200, and truth be told, I have no idea if they were alive in that year.
One was mentioned in 1172, which is rather far from our mod's timeframe, the other was mentioned in 1183, while the third one was mentioned in 1189 and 1194.
Considering that we already have lords for certain factions whose age and status of being alive is not known to us, I see no reason not to add these two, rather than inventing Captains.
I found all three of these in a book called Political history of the Serbs until 1537 AD.
It was written by a known Czech historian Konstantin Jireček.
1. Theodoros Padiates*
Mentioned as the leader of an army that left Niš, marching towards Ras.
They left the town at the same time when Henry The Lion - Duke of Saxony and Bavaria, was traveling from Belgrade to Niš, with his army of Crusaders.
The year was 1172.
2. Andronikos Lampardas*
In 1182, King Bela of Hungary attacked the Byzantine fortresses of Belgrade and Branichevo.
The war continued in 1183. when the Serbs joined forces with the Hungarians.
Byzantine border armies were under command by the two experienced commanders - Alexios Branas and Andronikos Lampardas.
The news that Andronikos Komenos became the Emperor divided the two commanders, so they retreated towards Trajan's Gate.
*both commanders' names were given in a form roughly guessed by me, because I don't know if the spelling is right.
You see, the Serbs (and other Slavs) don't write Greek names like Greeks and Westerners do.
So, in that book, the first one is called Teodor Padijat.
The second is called Andronik Lampard.
The names are obvious - Teodor is Theodor(os), while Andronik is Andronik(os).
But for the last names, I'm not so sure.
Padijat (or Padiyat) could be Padiates, while Lampard could be Lampardas or Lampardos.
Now, it is possible that you have already mentioned these two, or that they are present on the list, but with different names.
Also, about their age - I googled them, but found no online mentions of them, so I don't know whether they were alive in 1200 AD.
Looking at many of the other warlords of the era, I find it possible that they lived until 1200 AD.
3. Alexios Gidos
He was mentioned in the same book (as Aleksije Gida), leading the Byzantine armies along with Manuel Kamytzes, in 1189.
Them two were chatting (via letters) with the Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich Barbarossa.
Also, he was leading an army at the battle of Arkadiopolis (1194).
Is he present on our list, but with a different name?
I might have found three Byzantine lords that are not on our list.
They aren't from the year 1200, and truth be told, I have no idea if they were alive in that year.
One was mentioned in 1172, which is rather far from our mod's timeframe, the other was mentioned in 1183, while the third one was mentioned in 1189 and 1194.
Considering that we already have lords for certain factions whose age and status of being alive is not known to us, I see no reason not to add these two, rather than inventing Captains.
I found all three of these in a book called Political history of the Serbs until 1537 AD.
It was written by a known Czech historian Konstantin Jireček.
1. Theodoros Padiates*
Mentioned as the leader of an army that left Niš, marching towards Ras.
They left the town at the same time when Henry The Lion - Duke of Saxony and Bavaria, was traveling from Belgrade to Niš, with his army of Crusaders.
The year was 1172.
2. Andronikos Lampardas*
In 1182, King Bela of Hungary attacked the Byzantine fortresses of Belgrade and Branichevo.
The war continued in 1183. when the Serbs joined forces with the Hungarians.
Byzantine border armies were under command by the two experienced commanders - Alexios Branas and Andronikos Lampardas.
The news that Andronikos Komenos became the Emperor divided the two commanders, so they retreated towards Trajan's Gate.
*both commanders' names were given in a form roughly guessed by me, because I don't know if the spelling is right.
You see, the Serbs (and other Slavs) don't write Greek names like Greeks and Westerners do.
So, in that book, the first one is called Teodor Padijat.
The second is called Andronik Lampard.
The names are obvious - Teodor is Theodor(os), while Andronik is Andronik(os).
But for the last names, I'm not so sure.
Padijat (or Padiyat) could be Padiates, while Lampard could be Lampardas or Lampardos.
Now, it is possible that you have already mentioned these two, or that they are present on the list, but with different names.
Also, about their age - I googled them, but found no online mentions of them, so I don't know whether they were alive in 1200 AD.
Looking at many of the other warlords of the era, I find it possible that they lived until 1200 AD.
3. Alexios Gidos
He was mentioned in the same book (as Aleksije Gida), leading the Byzantine armies along with Manuel Kamytzes, in 1189.
Them two were chatting (via letters) with the Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich Barbarossa.
Also, he was leading an army at the battle of Arkadiopolis (1194).
Is he present on our list, but with a different name?
Nope, none of those are on the list. Gidos especially could work well, and even an Andronikos Gidos, whom we can count as his brother or son f.e.
MihailoSRB
Yep, the whole deal around Andronikos Gidos confused me, since I thought that he and Alexios Gidos were the same person!NikeBG said:
Then I thought that Alexios Komnenos (Andronikos Gidos' father-in-law), was, in fact ''my'' Alexios Gidos (since I didn't know whether Gidos is a nickname or a last name), but then I read that Alexios Komenos was born around 1180, and since we know that Alexios Gidos was leading an army in 1183, it was not possible.
(fu*king, damnit, am I crazy, or are 90% of Byzantine nobility called Alexios, Andronikos or Theodoros!?)
Now, you were suggesting that Alexios Gidos and Andronikos Gidos were either father and son, or brothers.
I think they were probably father and son, since Alexios Komnenos was born in around 1180, and if he really was a father-in-law to Alexios Gidos, that means he was (obviously) born before him, which in turn fits more into theory that Andronikos Gidos is Alexios Gidos' son.
Now, concerning their titles...
Padiates was only mentioned leading an army, so we don't know his title.
Lampardas was mentioned in the year as being one of the two experienced military commanders [with Alexios Branas] from the time of Emperor Manuel (died in 1180). That means he was active before 1183, when his name was written.
Gidos, on the other hand, was mentioned as being Grand Domesticus Marshall of the West (?!).
I have absolutely no idea what that means, but it is possible there's been a translation error (as I said, the book was translated from Czech to Serbian).
The full text reads:
...наиђоше крсташи на византијске трупе под заповедништвом великога доместика маршала запада Алексија Гида и Манојла Камица, које беху опремљене против Срба.
eng:
...the Crusaders came upon the Byzantine troops, under the command of the grand domesticus marshall(s) of the west, Alexios Gidos and Manuel Kamytzes, who were equipped for fighting against the Serbs.
Now, I will not bother you with the rules of the Serbian language, but, believe it or not, 3 things are possible to interpret:
1. That Gidos was the Grand Domesticus, while Kamytzes was the Marshall of the West
2. That Gidos was the Grand Domesticus Marshall of the West
3. That Gidos was the Grand Domesticus of the Marshalls of the West (i.e. he was the leader of the Marshalls of the West).
EDIT: in fact, it seems to me that number 3 is correct, at least according to the bult of the sentence.
Now, concerning Padiates' age (or whether he was alive in 1200), I'd say it is possible, since there were a lot of XII century people who lived long lives: Duke Henry the Lion (1129-1195), Prince Miroslav (before 1113-1196 or 1199), Grand Prince Stefan Nemanja (1113-1999 or 1200), Doge Enrico Dandolo (c.1107-1205), Eleanor of Aquitaine (1122 or 1124 - 1204)...
None of them, you say?NikeBG said:
Great!
Knowing that makes me sad that I don't know (very well) any other languages, except Serbian and English.
For example, I believe there is a lot of interesting info (concerning the Serbs) to be found in Greek, Bulgarian and other foreign historical books, that is usually not found in Serbian books.
Other way around too - who knows if that Theodoros Padiates, for example, is at all being mentioned in standard Greek history books, because of his (seemingly) low importance?
But he is mentioned in a book about the Serbs, because he led an army towards Ras (possibly never attacking it) - a feat that is sure to be omitted from a Greek book because... well, it serves no purpose, actually.
And it makes sense really - the standard history books don't deal much with ''smaller characters'' from history, that had no impact on its course...
Ironically, those are the people that we need the most, especially when adding lords for any faction.
