Armor Penalty

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Sargath said:
As for the shields: why do they affect power draw and horse archery? When someone use a bow, his shield is not wielded - it's held on his back. I think it should give penalty to athletics -2 instead. Heavy shield encumbers runners greater than heavy armour, doesn't it?
A large shield on your back will interrupt with using a bow. This penalty only applies to the "heavy" shields, not to all shields. And I agree that a large shields is about the bulkiest piece of equipment a warrior is likely to carry and interferes with running more than what its pure weight would suggest.
 
i like these penalties they make game realistic and equal to sides and i suggest that there should be bonusus on armors too like picts have light armor so they should gain a chance to being missed by a sword maybe.
Daggers should have attack bonus against light armor and penetrate it and to heavy armor they should have - damage. There should be small bonuses and small penalties at every item not only specific items
 
Ibdil,

Another thing worth thinking about is giving light items some plusses, I know it sounds like "fantasy" like but it may be a good way around this problem of light versus heavy armor. Penalties are not enjoyed but bonusses are! A good quality leather armor or shoes may give +1 on athletics, riding boots may give +1 on riding and a fine pair of gloves +1 on powerdraw.  These bonusses can be used to offset the negatives or simply to allow the users of the items to progres faster.

The end to keep in mind is that it is both realistic an enjoyable to promote a lighter style of weaponry. Warfare is not about who can field the biggest tank. Heavily armed troops arrived to battle slow and tired often losing the day to ligher opponents in any age of war.

This leads to a new Avenue of approach, the lack of rest morale factor could depend on the total weight of weaponry carried, penalizing the heavy armed troops in a realistic way, battlefield fatigue (a new penalty, on hitpoints of units in battle) could depend on weariness. 

I really appreciate the thin line your team walks between realism, enjoyment and listening to the player base. Excellent work and I am sure the next evolution of Brytenwalda will be another improvement and more fun.


Cheers,

Gerard Mulder



 
Yeah but problem of bonuses is that you loose this realistic approach on some items.
Some are nice like your example with leather boots giving you a +1 athletics (better to run than bare feet) but it's still strange to think that having any kind of cloth/gear is gonna make you better at any weapon. Gloves are not gonna help you aim, but maybe have a better grip on the axe ??

Like you said, i think it's gonna be a bit too much "fantasy" like wearing a ring giving you +2 strengh  :mrgreen:
 
beuse said:
Yeah but problem of bonuses is that you loose this realistic approach on some items.
Some are nice like your example with leather boots giving you a +1 athletics (better to run than bare feet) but it's still strange to think that having any kind of cloth/gear is gonna make you better at any weapon. Gloves are not gonna help you aim, but maybe have a better grip on the axe ??

Like you said, i think it's gonna be a bit too much "fantasy" like wearing a ring giving you +2 strengh  :mrgreen:

sometimes you have to factor in gameplay vs realism

you want to promote light infantry tactics but nerfs are not the answer.


I really like the suggestions of buffing light armor over nerfing heavy. On the note of realism, it seems pretty fantasy based that chainmail makes you hit less hard (when it in fact does the opposite due to increased force due to weight)
 
In my opinion, the nerf heavy armor even in suggestions to 1.32 excessively high.
Character 28 lvl, development as warrior in a heavy set, has the skills of the character the 10 lvl.

Amplification of light infantry and cavalry should be achieved in another way: the lower price development,
lower prices of content, the higher the rate of movement on the global map and an increase in morale during
the retreat from the battle with minimal casualties. Then we will have the opportunity to use tactics - hit, retreat, escaped.

 
You don't swing a sword as well in chain. As someone who's done the whole recreationist thing I can attest to that. I still think the hit to athletics is unreasonable, given that you already suffer a speed loss due to the weight of your gear.

My biggest beef, by far, is how useless the heavier armor is at protecting you. A decent chainmail will turn a sword hit that would have cut your arm off into at most a bruise. Heavy armor is incredibly effective - that's why people made and wore it. It takes MONTHS to make a suit of chainmail. It's a huge amount of work. People did it because it made you able to pretty much shrug off any hit to an armored area that wasn't a quality thrusting weapon. Given how tiring thrusting is (and it is, I've worked a spear and a pike in battles before, that whole SCA recreationist thing) and how much easier it is to deal with if you've got a shield it added dramatically to your survival.

I dislike that in order to make heavy armor other than just a negative I have to bring my difficulty under 100%. Make it more expensive, make it less common, make it whatever you want, just have it be actual armor. One thing this mod has seemed intent on doing is combat realism. The nerf of heavy armor has really kicked that in the cojones.
 
the42up said:
I really like the suggestions of buffing light armor over nerfing heavy. On the note of realism, it seems pretty fantasy based that chainmail makes you hit less hard (when it in fact does the opposite due to increased force due to weight)

Ok so let's try some real axe and put on real mail and fight, then we will be set  :lol:
I agree more heavy = stronger hit  but it also needs more strenght comparatively, so with equal strenght, you're slower. So you hit less hard for me in the end for the same guy (it's a bit confusing no?).
 
beuse said:
the42up said:
I really like the suggestions of buffing light armor over nerfing heavy. On the note of realism, it seems pretty fantasy based that chainmail makes you hit less hard (when it in fact does the opposite due to increased force due to weight)

Ok so let's try some real axe and put on real mail and fight, then we will be set  :lol:
I agree more heavy = stronger hit  but it also needs more strenght comparatively, so with equal strenght, you're slower. So you hit less hard for me in the end for the same guy (it's a bit confusing no?).

the added weight more than makes up for a loss of acceleration. 
 
Okay, let me clarify this - heavier armor in no way, shape or form lets you swing or thrust with more force. The weight is on you; it's not part of the leverage you're using to hit with. Also, regardless of how well designed the armor is, it inhibits your range of motion. Wearing armor absolutely reduces the speed, force and efficiency with which you can wield a weapon - or any other tool for that matter. Not a whole lot but it's noticeable.

Think about putting on a snow suit and carrying a backpack with a few bricks in it. The additional weight is not being added to the weapon; it's being put on you. You're having to waste a lot of effort overcoming your own increased weight just to put the weapon, which still weighs the same, into motion. You have to do this every time you move be it to swing, block or walk.
 
This is a good observation, it shows that the penalty of armor should be in the weapon proficiencies not in the skills. Imagine this:

Heavy mail: -50 on one handed weapon proficiency. -100 on 2 handes weapon -0 on polearm -200 on archery.

This means you train with lighter gear and later as you reach your summit of training, you don the heavier weapons and armor.


 
PLEASE: no +skill equipment!!

If the penalties could be implemented into weapon proficiencies instead of skills that that is the best thing to do. Otherwise, a moderate -skill is fine and my measure for "moderate" is significantly smaller than the typical values you would have in these skills - it is important that it does not lower the skill to zero! Beyond this point it means that skill points do not matter anymore.

Penalties to power throw make a lot of sense - you will NOT throw a javelin as far when wearing chain as when you are naked (not talking about accuracy) - but the difference is not huge. A large shields is a very bulky item. Even when slang on the back it is still annoying and will interrupt with anything that require a lot of free body movement. Unlike with armor, with the shield you have the option of dropping it anytime to run faster, fight more agile or... run away - the Spartans regarded returning from battle without your bulky hoplon as a sign that you ran away.

The major point: heavy armor must be worth it!
With the current damage of weapons, stats of armor and armor soak/reduce factors, the heavy armor is not that effective in protecting you. There are 3 options (not mutually exclusive):
1. Change weapon damage on items
2. Change armor values on items
3. Change global soak/reduce factors

My personal view is that:
#1 needs a small reduction - 80% of the current value sounds like the ballpark. If this is lowered too much than even naked people will not drop fast. The typical damage of a sword (all factors included, PS, weapon proficiency, a bit of speed damage) should be about the typical hit-points of a troop.
#2 Because of the way armor damage reduction works, extremely high values are problematic. 65 (Wolf lorica) is EXTREMELY high and I would normally not go much over 50.
#3 After some testing I firmly believe that this is the key to a good damage balance. Keeping the base damage high enough to satisfy #1, but making each point of armor counting more keeps weapon deadly against peasants, but allows heavy troops some "staying power". It is also very easy to tweak since these are global factors and do not require editing module.py files.
My current values as an example:
armor_soak_factor_against_cut        = 1.0
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce  = 0.85
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt    = 0.3

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut        = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce  = 0.3
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt    = 0.85

These mean that the defense against pierce is mostly (no only) a flat damage threshold (to penetrate), but most of what goes through the armor soak-defense is delivered as damage. It makes thrusting weapons really benefit from extra damage bonuses and weak thrusts suffer even more. Blunt weapons will produce very few glancing blows (always do some damage) and most of the defense against them is the percentage reduction (cushion effect). Slashing weapons are both effectively resisted (need to cut all the way through the armor) and reduced (need to keep cutting through the armor to widen the wound) - fighting "chain" (essentially just the top armors since the game does not make a difference) with a sword becomes difficult unless you have a lot of damage boost factors. The wolf lorica suddenly seem attractive even with the huge -4 to skills.
At the same time, against pajamas all weapons tear through them for a 1 hit kill due to the high base damage.

Your mileage may vary.
 
Griefer said:
Wearing armor absolutely reduces the speed, force and efficiency with which you can wield a weapon - or any other tool for that matter.

That sums up my tought better than the way i said it :wink:
 
Awesome post. mouthnhoof, I can just add that when designing these kind of features one must not only look at the realism factor, but how it affects the gameplay as well. Current armour penalties are so penalizing (equalling 18 levels) that I rolled back to 1.3 and am waiting for a fix in 1.32.
 
mouthnhoof said:
PLEASE: no +skill equipment!!

If the penalties could be implemented into weapon proficiencies instead of skills that that is the best thing to do. Otherwise, a moderate -skill is fine and my measure for "moderate" is significantly smaller than the typical values you would have in these skills - it is important that it does not lower the skill to zero! Beyond this point it means that skill points do not matter anymore.

Penalties to power throw make a lot of sense - you will NOT throw a javelin as far when wearing chain as when you are naked (not talking about accuracy) - but the difference is not huge. A large shields is a very bulky item. Even when slang on the back it is still annoying and will interrupt with anything that require a lot of free body movement. Unlike with armor, with the shield you have the option of dropping it anytime to run faster, fight more agile or... run away - the Spartans regarded returning from battle without your bulky hoplon as a sign that you ran away.

The major point: heavy armor must be worth it!
With the current damage of weapons, stats of armor and armor soak/reduce factors, the heavy armor is not that effective in protecting you. There are 3 options (not mutually exclusive):
1. Change weapon damage on items
2. Change armor values on items
3. Change global soak/reduce factors

My personal view is that:
#1 needs a small reduction - 80% of the current value sounds like the ballpark. If this is lowered too much than even naked people will not drop fast. The typical damage of a sword (all factors included, PS, weapon proficiency, a bit of speed damage) should be about the typical hit-points of a troop.
#2 Because of the way armor damage reduction works, extremely high values are problematic. 65 (Wolf lorica) is EXTREMELY high and I would normally not go much over 50.
#3 After some testing I firmly believe that this is the key to a good damage balance. Keeping the base damage high enough to satisfy #1, but making each point of armor counting more keeps weapon deadly against peasants, but allows heavy troops some "staying power". It is also very easy to tweak since these are global factors and do not require editing module.py files.
My current values as an example:
armor_soak_factor_against_cut        = 1.0
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce  = 0.85
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt    = 0.3

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut        = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce  = 0.3
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt    = 0.85

These mean that the defense against pierce is mostly (no only) a flat damage threshold (to penetrate), but most of what goes through the armor soak-defense is delivered as damage. It makes thrusting weapons really benefit from extra damage bonuses and weak thrusts suffer even more. Blunt weapons will produce very few glancing blows (always do some damage) and most of the defense against them is the percentage reduction (cushion effect). Slashing weapons are both effectively resisted (need to cut all the way through the armor) and reduced (need to keep cutting through the armor to widen the wound) - fighting "chain" (essentially just the top armors since the game does not make a difference) with a sword becomes difficult unless you have a lot of damage boost factors. The wolf lorica suddenly seem attractive even with the huge -4 to skills.
At the same time, against pajamas all weapons tear through them for a 1 hit kill due to the high base damage.

Your mileage may vary.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

While I have none of the skills required to mod in Warband/M&B I've done MUD design for a good 15 years, gear/MOB/skill balancing I get. You need to establish some baseline NPCs and equipment that should perform at X level with a skill level of Y. This helps keep you balanced when adding new equipment and NPCs so you don't suffer from 'creep'. That inevitable imbalancing that comes with wanting to add better and better equipment, troops, etc.

How many hits should it take an average guy to kill another average guy unarmored with an average weapon. How effective should light, medium and heavy armor be respectively. Set exact ranges for each. Same with general weapon types, what is a reasonable range for them to perform in. Find damage/block/hit/miss metrics that fit with this initial calculation and never mess with them again.

Anyway. Thank you for having done that research, trying it out right now. Wow, I've never looked in the Module.ini file before. It tells you in there exactly what changes will effect what, doesn't it? That's pretty slick.
 
Just curious, are the problems with the heavy armor penalites in 1.3 or 1.31.

I seem to have 1.3 based on the number in my load screen.

Are the two-handed axes in the mod a bit too powerful? and also a bit too common?
 
Ok guys now lets not forget this is the best mod for mount and blade that I have ever played.  They need to adjust the penality.  I still give cudous to the developers!
 
I wouldn't say the heavy armor penalties are a 'problem'. I think they are a great idea that is being tweaked, awesomely enough based on user feedback. Two-handed axes hit, well, like a two-handed axe. It hurts.
 
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