An Advanced Guide to Dueling - More Than Manual Block *Updated 6/16*

[Ruthven]

Of - L or Of - R  : I refer to this simple attack as "The Akmar". It is an excellent attack because it forces an opponent to quickly upblock and then leftblock. The common result is an accidental downblock because the upblock naturally puts the manual blocker's mouse out of its natural position.

Works every time 

Every time you aren't fighting me, that is. 

 

[darkweaver]

It's the kind of thing one learns by playing, I think, and not through a guide.  I think most people already understand that you need to be aware of weapon ranges, it's actually *instinctively knowing* those ranges that's the problem.  Perhaps I am mistaken, however.

That's a valid criticism, and just as you cannot learn to play baseball by just watching a game on TV, or to dance by reading a book about dancing, this guide can only help you by giving you information on how to duel. However, I wrote the guide partially as a demonstration of the nuances and skill that goes into a duel and to cultivate an appreciation for that skill. If nothing else, I hope it can inspire people to pick up the game and provide everyone with some more competition. 

Fair enough.  And I do hope we get more people.  I've kind of stopped playing MP mainly because of that

Love your guys' duel server btw.  The battle one always seems to be empty whenever I check, though (east coast evenings)...

 

[Rob.]

Incredible guide. I picked up a few things that I might use in the future. Thanks!

 

[ell_geezy]

If duels are a dance with a rhythm, then the clash of steel is their beat. Now that we now how to play and listen to the music, lets analyze a few of the key notes.


#mate that was so cheesy , none the less good guide, i knew most of it anyway, and as parity says, mix your game up

uthred

 

[darkhorse]

Excellent guide, this should be stickied.

 

[LordHasek]

I am a master of cheese 

 

[Ruthven]

To expand on chambering  (which is definitely worth learning)

Chamberblock is an exceptional way to beat duelists who feint a lot,  to the point where you can prevent them from doing so entirely-

As they make their first move,  you swing to meet it with a chamber-  now they have two options,  attack- which results in you chambering them,  or feint-  which gets them hit since the delay from feinting means your swing hits first.

Also good to note that if you do an overhead and someone goes to chamber, you can feint into a side swing and hit them first.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

That doesn't make much sense. Theoretically if you start a swing, and I start a swing immediately afterward, and you then cancel your attack and switch to a new swing, I should always land first. It just wouldn't make sense for a feinted attack to come in before the attempted chamber block, unless the chamber block was too late to begin with.

 

[Ruthven]

That doesn't make much sense. Theoretically if you start a swing, and I start a swing immediately afterward, and you then cancel your attack and switch to a new swing, I should always land first. It just wouldn't make sense for a feinted attack to come in before the attempted chamber block, unless the chamber block was too late to begin with.

Nah, if you pull your attack away before your swing starts, then you can just make it so your swing starts a bit after theirs, and since horizontal slashes are faster then overheads, you'll hit first. Very important to take into consideration weapon speed though. 

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

What if you do a thrust to chamber the overhead? That is how chambering still works right? I haven't practiced it enough to find out, but if I remember correctly overheads and thrusts chamber block each other.

I imagine it would also depend upon how soon the feint occurs. If you start the feint too late into the animation you'll either get chambered or it'll take too long to pull off the feinting strike.

 

[doomsayer]

Good guide. Some points I disagree with though.

Many players often do not think too much about this phase, yet it is very important because it establishes your initial position and movement direction relative to your opponent. Starting a duel inches away from an opponent is much different than starting a duel with a player who is running from across the map.

I rather find it unsporting if someone gets close, greets for a second and starts the attack while I'm still greeting back. Imo in a duel both players should wait until the greeting "ceremony" is finished before moving at each other. Don't anyone mention the unfair stuff I've done for fun at times but it should really not become your standard to surprise attack anyone in a duel.

Some but not all weapons have a reach greater than the length of the weapon's in-game model; this problem is exacerbated by lag.

I've always supposed the weapon reach number was the real reach. Now after testing it seems more it's indeed the model/animation that's responsible. Don't know for sure though.
I think those where you are visibly out of range and still hit are caused by ping, like an overhead that clearly misses can still kill.

 

[LordHasek]

I've always supposed the weapon reach number was the real reach. Now after testing it seems more it's indeed the model/animation that's responsible. Don't know for sure though.
I think those where you are visibly out of range and still hit are caused by ping, like an overhead that clearly misses can still kill.

The reach number is the true reach of a weapon. The reach number does not necessarily match up with the length of the weapon's model in game, the morningstar is an instance of this, the reach number is larger than the physical size of the weapon. The great long bardiche also has a slightly greater reach than it's model's length which make overheads and thrusts particularly tricky to dodge.

 

[Orion]

Unfortunately the animations do have a part to play in it, as they dictate the path which the weapon follows. For a weapon like the spear which is held high on the shaft for thrusts and swung close to the body, your effective reach is actually shorter than with other weapons whose reach statistic is higher. The game doesn't calculate reach from your hands, but from the bottom to the top of the weapon. Because you hold swords at the hilt which is the lowest part of the weapon, you get more actual reach. Spears are held in two places, one hand near the end of the shaft and one at about the middle. Because the reach on a spear is listed at 135, you think it's longer than a sword, yet only ~60-70 of that reach is past your top hand.

The reach statistic is very misleading, making experience and close analysis the only two methods for "learning" a weapon.

On a side note, chamber blocking is not as effective as some make it out to be. It's only effective against opponents who are unaware of what you're doing, and after you hit with the first one it's almost useless to try again. This is because chamber blocking imposes no penalty on the attacker. Even with "unbalanced" weapons like a great axe, there is seemingly no recovery time after being chamber blocked. You can quickly and easily block an incoming attack after being chamber blocked, and as someone else mentioned you can "double chamber" and chamber block an incoming attack that just chamber blocked your initial attack. If that doesn't illustrate the problems with the system, I don't know what does.

Anyway, like I said it's only viable against someone who doesn't know it's coming or whose reflexes are too slow to catch it. Don't even bother against shield users.

 

[Reapy]

For chamber blocks its now overhead --> overhead    and thrust --> overhead  or thrust --> thrust

ie incoming overhead attack, chambered with an overhead,  incoming thrust can be chambered with overhead or thrust.

As was already said with the timing of them if someone is doing feint left, attack right at "normal" speed, if you swing to chamber block the left feint, they will have to block or be hit. But if they do a feint that is just a block motion and is really fast, and swing again, you will get hit, or they can do the left/right feint super fast and sometimes connect first.

Also as ruth said, which I observed ironically enough dueling akmar who was doing overhead feint into right attack, even though his feint in this case was 'normal' speed, trying to get my overhead chamber block swing to hit him couldn't connect first as the overhead swing is slower. I've since seen this play out a bunch of places.  The short of it is really that if you are playing a person who is chambering you, you can sort of be 'safe' from the above described style attack by starting with an overhead, not that it is super helpful, just a small detail to keep in the back of your head.

Anyway I like guide. I actually in my head would think of the term 'deep feinting' as swinging and pulling back at the last minute, but it also works in the context you picked for it too   I will add link to it in infantry primer in the dueling section.

 

[Urist]

Anyway I like guide. I actually in my head would think of the term 'deep feinting' as swinging and pulling back at the last minute, but it also works in the context you picked for it too.

That's a noisy feint in my terminology.

 

[Madkat]

Nice guide.
I'd like a guide that goes more into details, like how quick or slow can you chamber before it's not a chamber anymore. Chamber directions (Apparantly you can chamber thrust with both thrust or up attack?) Weapon damages. Things like that

 

[Valdarr]

I think its generally a really nice guide!

But i have to disagree with at least two things.
First thing i dont like too much is your 3 types of duelers, since i myself dont find me and other good players i know in it. Most good players develope a unique playstye. So even when this person has a helm on or playes with a different nick, you can identify him. Good players can even change their playstyle, to gain an advantage over someone other or just for fun.

The other thing would be your Attack Patters. The tactics you show there are good to use, thats right, but i miss some things. Especially an OF - O, thats because when you do the Overhaed, your opponent will block up, you feint, and your opponent drops his block, to see from where you will attack next. Since you do an Overhead again and his Animation stayed as an up-block most of the time, the opponent will just press his block-button which will result in a thrust-block. This tactic can be done with every attack exept the thrust.
Since I know what to do in most situations, i tend to not think about my attacks anymore, so as of now i cant list any other "good" tactic, maybe when i get a bit more time i will post some more.

I will wait for you to put up the Chamber blockings and read it again, hopefully i have more time than to post a more throughout answer.

And i hope you dont mind when i do a little advertisment myself, since i wrote a guide some time ago, should really update it sometimes xD
maybe its even interesting for you too, thought i dont think you will see something completely new in it.
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,112044.0.html

Thanks for your guide!
Valdarr

 

[kingofnoobia]

Good guide! The only thing I would still advise is to be careful not to be too enthousiastic to apply feint sequences against an unknown opponent.

If I'm going to duel an unknown opponent, I tend to give him a few easy test attacks first. Let your enemy attack first, follow up with a slightly chambered right to left attack. This tests two things: does the opponent attempt chamberblocking (excessively)? If he does, he will probably get hit because you chambered your attack, if he doesn't, he'll just parry. Note that it's not necessarily not a chamberblocker if he doesn't try to riposte this hit. Secondly: Is he somewhat decent at blocking? If your opponent attempts but is incapable of blocking this strike (which is rare), just go ape**** on him.

Follow up with a simple attack-block rhythm, without trying anything fancy, to observe how your enemy fights (you solely depend on manual blocking here). After exchanging a good 3-5 blows each, use whatever you think will counter his style or return to your standard dueling preferences (which would probably be aggressive-control for me).

Tends to work well. Perhaps you could still be taken by surprise if your opponent has a particularly unusual fighting style, but it's a safe way to initiate a duel without immediately 'showing your cards'.

 

[Stabbing Hobo]

Block: To defend against an attack holding the block key for a longer moment. Creates more stun for the defender.

Parry: To defend against an attack clicking the defend button just in time. Keeps defender stun low.

There's no difference in stun between a tapped block and held block.

 

[Qwertyman]

On a side note, chamber blocking is not as effective as some make it out to be.

it entirely depends on how you use it, and your oponent.  against players who feint a lot, it is a golden move that will take them down with ease,  with more careful and hesitant attackers however, its largely useless.

but seriously, in the right circumstances its like an 'i win' button.