2016 U.S. Presidential Elections: The Circus Is In Full Swing

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You've got the price estimates way off. Foreign-made goods are usually substantially cheaper than American-made ones if the highest cost involved is labor (and for manufacturing and textiles, it is), and not necessarily poorer quality either.
 
I know, I was just pulling numbers out my ass for an example. You could say 1$ for the Laotian toddler shirt and 9$ for the American one in the case of free trade, the point still stands.

Another point is that the 9$ would go back into the American economy and create more jobs and eventually come back to the shirt's buyer, but the 1$ would go to Laos.
 
Dirk Robbing said:
But dependance on China/Russia would lead to certain demise. (for example, Russia can ground all Lockheed Martin rockets with the swipe of Putin's pen, and Boeing is retiring their line, leading to dependance on SpaceX, which is unreliable as seen by the CRS-7 failure)

Mutually assured destruction and the doctrine of 'peace through strength' I think will preserve peace with those major nations. Also, tariffs aren't sanctions. They would be able to access American goods at whatever price those goods are being sold at, plus whatever tax that country chooses to put on our goods. They would be imposing it on themselves, and if it is so crippling to themselves, so be it. We can negotiate using the tariffs to get them out of the South China sea.

Certain demise how? Russia can deny access for satellite launches through their rockets, which sucks in the short term, but as you mentioned we're already developing new models, and lack of access to Russian rockets will only stimulate American industry and innovation.

And again, those are theories. Mutually assured destruction, of course seeing as we're still here to talk about it, has never been demonstrated, and peace through strength can only be demonstrated through, well, the opposite of peace, IE war, which when applied frivolously as we have only ends up isolating ourselves. Why would we initiate nuclear holocaust over the annexation of a peninsula in a corruption ridden, indecisive Eastern European country, or over a bunch of islands in the S. China sea that didn't even exist a year ago, for the sake of the likes of Vietnam or the Philippines, which has ever been bipolar about our presence.
 
Besides the obvious comparative advantage argument (Dirk Robbing, have you perchance taken basic microeconomics? If not, here's a stupid yet informative quick video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpTBjRf8lGs) I would also argue that free trade is good precisely because it causes temporary job losses. If America is going to sit on the strength of its manufacturing, it will never win on the global markets simply due to China's ridiculous population and low labor, and tariffs aren't going to remove either of those things. What job losses force countries to do is to actually have most of its labor in areas that it can turn a profit in, and this is where capitalism shines. We are increasingly becoming a tertiary and quadernary sector economy, which is phenomenal because this is an area that China cannot compete with us in, because they simply do not have the educational institutions that requires.

Clinging on to areas of the economy (farming, industry) that we are bound to fail in is nuts, and we're just going to continue to subsidize/bailout huge companies and never reap the benefits. Let it go, let free trade occur, flood the American economy with cheap foreign goods so that our people can actually get profitable service and IT-sector jobs that our excellent post-secondary educational institutions thrive in.
 
Yeah also, Robbing, honestly do you actually want to go work in a factory. My parents did it early on in their lives when we still had a manufacturing base and it ****ing sucked, there's a reason why we're moving on to a more educationally based economic system rather than manual labor driven. It's still there, in areas such as construction and maintenance to continue sustaining our infrastructure and the like, but it is merely a foundation, not the model of the economy itself. I don't see us ever really moving back unless we actually go into the ****ter enough to warrant justifying restarting large scale manufacturing, as in the average American is willing to work for internationally competitive rates.
 
Actually, the US is phenomenally competitive in agriculture, at least for some crops. And yet we still do protectionist crap for farmers for political reasons, to the extent that it can sometimes be more profitable *not* to sell a crop in order to take advantage of subsidies. We're a major exporter of food worldwide. We have large amounts of productive farmland and our farms are very advanced. So in that respect it's always to our advantage to convince other nations to lower their own farm subsidies and tariffs. This is often a feature of free trade deals arranged by the US.

One of the problems that the US does have in farming is that it is such a low margin source of income, so it does take substantial scale in order for the overall operation to be very profitable in comparison to other income-generating opportunities.
 
Yeah for however much NAFTA screwed American manufacturing, it hit Mexican agriculture just as hard, if not harder, because at the same time it removed barriers to free trade for stuff like corn, it still had to compete with the prices of American crops which are kept artificially low by government subsidies. Stuff like this is how China and other countries justify their tariffs.
 
Tiberius Decimus Maximus said:
Certain demise how? Russia can deny access for satellite launches through their rockets, which sucks in the short term, but as you mentioned we're already developing new models, and lack of access to Russian rockets will only stimulate American industry and innovation.
Such a transition takes years. The earliest possible date, wtih everything going perfectly, means we will fly an American engine (BE-4) in 2019. But these things are always delayed. We only have that sort of time leeway in peacetime.

Why would we initiate nuclear holocaust over the annexation of a peninsula in a corruption ridden, indecisive Eastern European country, or over a bunch of islands in the S. China sea that didn't even exist a year ago, for the sake of the likes of Vietnam or the Philippines, which has ever been bipolar about our presence.
I never said we should do a nuclear first strike or even a strike against either coutnry, all I say is that we should raise tariffs on Russia and China as punishment for their actions there. I support the idea of supplying the Ukrainian military or at least temporarily replacing their navy which Russia stole (it was based in Crimea) but that's pretty unrelated to trade policy.

Eternal said:
Besides the obvious comparative advantage argument (Dirk Robbing, have you perchance taken basic microeconomics? If not, here's a stupid yet informative quick video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpTBjRf8lGs) I would also argue that free trade is good precisely because it causes temporary job losses. If America is going to sit on the strength of its manufacturing, it will never win on the global markets simply due to China's ridiculous population and low labor, and tariffs aren't going to remove either of those things. What job losses force countries to do is to actually have most of its labor in areas that it can turn a profit in, and this is where capitalism shines. We are increasingly becoming a tertiary and quadernary sector economy, which is phenomenal because this is an area that China cannot compete with us in, because they simply do not have the educational institutions that requires.
Being an engineering and science based economy is great, but that's not feasible for the entire economy.

I want the entire American country to be as productive as possible. That means that everyone does the job they are capable of. 30.4 percent of adults over 25 have a bachelor's degree or above. So while we try to get everyone educated so we CAN eventually outsource everything to China while we work in STEM fields, that is not and won't be feasible for a long time. Those uneducated people should not just be dead weight until they agree to work for next to nothing under the table. There are factories already built in America that are being left to rot. Let's reopen those and put the folks who are already trained to manufacture Ford cars to work making cars; because it suddenly becomes quite unprofitable to manufacture elsewhere. And the people will be paid a fair wage, not an "internationally competitive" **** wage. Because those "internationally competitive" wages won't be competitive in the American market.

I watched the video and I think I could answer it on a test but I don't really find it convincing.

Clinging on to areas of the economy (farming, industry) that we are bound to fail in is nuts, and we're just going to continue to subsidize/bailout huge companies and never reap the benefits. Let it go, let free trade occur, flood the American economy with cheap foreign goods so that our people can actually get profitable service and IT-sector jobs that our excellent post-secondary educational institutions thrive in.

I don't think we should subsidize or bailout. Simply make it so the only way to sell to the American market is to manufacture here. Let GM and the big banks die, and let new companies take their place. And manufacture in America. If they aren't manufacturing in America, there should be a place in the market for a new company to gain an advantage by manufacturing here, for as long as there are workers willing to do it. And wages shoudl rise accordingly, as there is more demand for workers but the same supply of workers the wages will rise, the quality of life rises, the people have more money to spend, economy grows, and **** you China you don't get any of it. :grin:
 
Dirk Robbing said:
Let GM and the big banks die
HAHA no. GM and the auto industry in general is the only thing making Detroit work. Hell 70% of the jobs here are auto related
 
Well I'm also a big fan of public works projects and govt spending in infrastructure. Lotsa jobs in that for Detroit, but also if jobs are moved back to America the abondoned factories will be filled at many times the rate of closing.
 
13 major automotive factories in Michigan are abandoned. Last recession I knew a lot of people who lost jobs, and many were engineers, not unskilled laborers. Public works won't help white collar workers
 
You need structural engineers and architects to build most things... Public works isn't just generic fixing potholes and road repairs.
 
Tesla has little presence in Michigan, specifically Detroit. Also your intersecting field thing is COMPLETELY irrelevant
 
It's not irrelevant. Also, the ready-made labor pool will attract a new company especially because they will be incentivised to come to America to access our market more efficiently so I could easily see see Toyota setting up shop in Detroit, especially if the tariffs are extended to products engineered and designed abroad, to incentivise engineers to come here.

The best thing though would be for protectionism before GM is nearly run out of business by foreign competitors undercutting us because of cheap imports :razz:
 
Hell all I care is you make it not a terrible place to live. I you can do that I'm fine.
#Dirk4Prez2016
 
Small-town nationalism disguised as economic protectionism. The consumers are somehow expected to bear the burden, but they don't want to, they are smarter than that and want cheap stuff, meaning cheap imports.
The US does need to modernize its workforce, its manual labor is not competitive and young people should be stimulated to get higher education, not drop out of school and compete for non-existing jobs. The culture of disdain for education and the expense of getting one need to be changed.
It's delusional to think that somehow jobs with low added value can be brought back from elsewhere, just to accommodate the working class and keep a few dollars more in the economy. They are screwed because too many of them didn't go to school and just depress each other's wages while professional pay is constantly on the rise for decades.
 
MadVader said:
Small-town nationalism disguised as economic protectionism. The consumers are somehow expected to bear the burden, but they don't want to, they are smarter than that and want cheap stuff, meaning cheap imports.
The US does need to modernize its workforce, its manual labor is not competitive and young people should be stimulated to get higher education, not drop out of school and compete for non-existing jobs. The culture of disdain for education and the expense of getting one need to be changed.
It's delusional to think that somehow jobs with low added value can be brought back from elsewhere, just to accommodate the working class and keep a few dollars more in the economy. They are screwed because too many of them didn't go to school and just depress each other's wages while professional pay is constantly on the rise for decades.

On the one hand you have a point, on the other hand, education is not a magic life saver, it helps, sure, but when everyone can go to university, and everyone goes, you end up with over saturation of high skilled people on the job market, and in the end, you end up with people in possession of engineering degrees working at McDonald's, and taking a job that should have gone to a low skilled guy who now needs to apply for living wages, social housing and other social measures or to find himself a comfortable cardboard box if he's American.

more educated people = less value for diploma's
 
Someone with an engineering degree might not find a job for a time but won't work dead-end jobs all his life, those without degrees won't have his job opportunities.
 
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