1.5.1 - Cavarly is pretty weak while archers are still the way to go.

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Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Yes, it is me again opening threads about this. Sorry for that but I think we have a really important balancing issue here which should be fixed. The problem is that archers are much more effective than cavalry and infantry units in the game and there is not really a reason to recruit other kind of unit but archers. The AI is not able to effectively protect against player's archers, while cavalry AI is especially bad in 1.5.0. Here you can two videos to compare, both battles against the same :





I know that I have just charged with my cav units and did not managed them at all but it is what actually happens in most of the battles and you simply cannot baby sit cavalry units. Anyway If you think that the only problem here is that I am a totally noob and you are able to perfectly manage your cavalry units, here you have both save games where you can play these battles. If you think that I am wrong and archers are not 5 times better than cavalry units in this game, please show your point.

wetransfer.com

sfd1.sav and 1 more file

2 files sent via WeTransfer, the simplest way to send your files around the world
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BTW, Player having 50 Imperial Legionaries/Vlandian Sergeatns also lose this battle. I can provide a video or save game if you want to check it.

EDIT: for clarity.
 
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The AI (and players) should be able to put their infantry in a testudo type formation if it registers large amounts of archers in the enemy army.

Cavalry needs a major rework, it's been a long standing issue in the game that it's extremely hard to hit footmen if you're using a sword/axe/mace while on horse back. The way they fight is also an issue, pretty low damage output when they're constantly running away to charge back in.
 
Yeah they were bad(or fragile and complicated), now they're worse. #1 they need to land their attack, they miss more and try to switch weapons at bad times. #2 Heavy Cav needs Armor, needs to be heavy, probably didn't change but I WANT SWADIAN KNIGHTS!.

What's unfortunate is they changed HA behavior so you can't flank and trap them with Cav as easily, HA will run away back to main formations if you do. This was the only thing Cav was really good for. You can still do it but you have to really encircle the HA and it's literally easier to just leave everyone at edge of map and kill them all myself as the run away and come back.

I think archer are worse too but I haven't got any higher tier ones yet. Heavy HA and random mid tier archers seem to not shred approaching formations as easily. But then again I think ranged really snowballs when you have even more of them so I'll see later. They seem worse at hitting moving targets then before and facing direction doesn't seem to help them as much. Also they seem a little slow to shoot.

I agree a Fian or t4+ HA is better then 5 Cav, but I want strong Cav and strong archers.
 
Cavalry AI has never been great but it is especially bad in 1.5.0. I used to do these kind of tests in 1.4.3 and banner knights performed much better. Something has changed for sure in 1.5.0 which makes cavalry even worse than before.
 
I really hope TW gives us an idea of how they actually expect units to function in battles. Is the sheer power of archery a deliberate design decision or what?
 
It is really frustrating when you actually do maneuver and get a good side flank with your heavy cavalry and they just get absorbed into the line, stop, and get cut down.

Where did all their momentum go?
 
Yeah idk if its that the cav got worse, but i think that the improved infantry formations and AI don't allow the opportunity for cav to pick off the soliders that would chase them and break formation last patch. Its seems that now the infantry got an improvement the cavs need one as well.
 
I agree it feels like the cavalry is worse. It feels to me like they spend less time charging enemies in this version and more time running around the battlefield where no one is around. I first noticed it when I tried the tutorial again to check for changes. The cavalry units couldn't even kill the basic looters from tutorial. They just rode around on their horses hardly attacking anyone until they all fell from stones. I was wondering if something was off with the cavalry AI. This confirms it.
 
1.5.0 CHANGES
  • Increased minimum collision resistance (when moving fast).
  • Increased maximum collision resistance (when moving slow).
  • The collision resistance when standing still stayed the same.
  • This will also make it harder to push through formations of AI.
  • Made Equip animations longer:
    • This will increase the equip times slightly when changing weapons.
    • Doesn't affect sheathing weapons.
The two I have underlined would affect cavalry heavily I would infer.
Longer equip animation is probably affecting the derpyness when it come to switching between lance and one handers.

The collision resistance is an interesting one because,in the first charge of the video where the Cavalry is both cohered and moving its fastest it is able to break right through the thickest part of the enemy ranks with a good kill to death ratio on that first charge, none of the subsequent charges have either the speed or coherence of the first and so cavalry are more likely to get bogged.

There are a few possible paths to improve cav.

If their AI could somehow how decide that if they do not have either enough speed or coherence with other cav that they should instead target specifically the edge of a formation so they can peel off kills without getting bogged. Which as i am typing I realise sounds very complicated. Though you can see in the video how on the subsequent charges the cav are still charging into the centre mass off the enemy formation even though there are completely exposed archers on either side of the formation.

I think also their strike success rate seems quite poor even when they do manage to target the archers, or they are not moving fast enough to boost their lethality.

Another fix I might make applies more specifically to the heavy Cav archetype more than cav in general, but I think when bogged down in enemy ranks the cav should of course be at their most vulnerable, however I dont think their capacity to deal damage should be as inhibited perhaps so they can better trade kills or soften enemies for other units. What I am pointing to here is the effect armour has on either how easily the unit can be stunned or how long the stun lasts. Picture your heavy Knights having their armour probed by spears until death, as they go down swingning.
Maybe stuns would be reduced substantially if struck in the legs. paritartially slighly for body with longest stun duration for hits to the head, i'm not fully clear on the current game mechanics for stun but I think it is dependent on just damage dealt. But maybe the factors I outlined should have additional affect on stun.

Just some spitballing
 
Thanks for the info. I like these changes to be honest, I did not like how cavalry was able to easily pass through infantry. In the other hand, cav is now too weak and miss a lot of hits, probably more than before.
 
I prefer the cavalry now. It's never a good idea to charge into archers unless they are scattered or occupied. And you can chase off HA, you just can't murder them.

Archers are still fairly OP. I was using Realistic Battle Mod and that negated them a lot, but since it's not compatible with this version I turned it off, and wow, what a difference. They just destroy everything.
 
Lord Bryggan said:
I prefer the cavalry now. It's never a good idea to charge into archers unless they are scattered or occupied. And you can chase off HA, you just can't murder them.

Archers are still fairly OP. I was using Realistic Battle Mod and that negated them a lot, but since it's not compatible with this version I turned it off, and wow, what a difference. They just destroy everything.
Click to expand...
They actually have a version that's compatible to 1.5 but I find that buff they've given to armors is making bow damage trivial to anyone but the lowest tier of troops and armor prices are unbelievably high. I use to love this mod but I'm beginning to change my mind.
 
black_bulldog said:
They actually have a version that's compatible to 1.5 but I find that buff they've given to armors is making bow damage trivial to anyone but the lowest tier of troops and armor prices are unbelievably high. I use to love this mod but I'm beginning to change my mind.
Click to expand...
Oh, that's no good. All I wanted was for AI to use their shields... that way if you got behind them you could wreck them.

Oh... you might be talking about the pierce and the cut arrows. The differences between them are far too high, plus you can't adjust according to who you are fighting.
 
Lord Bryggan said:
Oh, that's no good. All I wanted was for AI to use their shields... that way if you got behind them you could wreck them.

Oh... you might be talking about the pierce and the cut arrows. The differences between them are far too high, plus you can't adjust according to who you are fighting.
Click to expand...
Yep I wish I could switch what kind of arrows I'm using or even bring backup. I miss the storage chest that spawned at the start location in battles. It might be gamey but it definitely was helpful. It's one of the those things I really miss from Warband.
 
Do you remember that hot fix that allowed cavalry to kill with one stab? Result of a movie night where cavs were raiding villages. You know why cavs became weak in this patch? Another movie night. Probably one where angry villagers united against the raiders.
 
Lord Bryggan said:
I prefer the cavalry now. It's never a good idea to charge into archers unless they are scattered or occupied.
Click to expand...
Cav should be the counter against archers, it should be like:

Cav > Archers
Archers > Inf
Spear Inf > Cav

But it´s like:

Archers > All
Spear Inf < all

Many videos show this.I also can confirm this from my 1.5.0 playthrough.

You don´t need Cav/Inf at all, Archers will do the job.

A 50 troop archer army will beat any 100+ army without archers. (Horse archers are an exception of course.)
 
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