Any mod/mods that REMOVE Khuzait?

[Benjamin Bones]

Day 90, I'm only trading.

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Oh for sure. With some of the stuff Mexxico did he slowed down the Khuzaits' inexorable westward march. Now, by day 90, they're just warming up. If you get to day 250-300 (without mods nor player intervention) and the Khuzait are not dominating, then I'll be surprised... AND shocked.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

How the*** are you at war vs Battania?!
You literally have the whole Eastern Map for yourself

I play for the long game. So seeing 1 faction start to over extend and I march over there and beat them into the dirt until their enemies have some breathing room. This also raises relations with all those lords and I release them. I'll cycle through all the bigger factions doing this.

We are working on this issue. As you know this happen because of 2 reasons :

1- 20% mounted unit bonus at battle simulations (even at siege battle simulations) and Khuzait troops are generally mounted + AI cheats and upgrades to mounted units without spending horse (I offered disabling this cheat to one possible solution however it is rejected for now, because removing this cheat is a bit risky for gameplay - I accept)
2- Khuzait faction bonus is overpowered and it make their lord parties to run away easily from powerfull enemies nearly all time.

I would love to see the no horse cheat removed! Too bad they didn't listen, but I know they did that for reason. I would just love to see a defeated khuzait army re-spawn and scramble around competing for horses from NPCs!

I think the auto-calc is funny because in live battle Cav is kinda bad still, even Horse archer do more damage when positioned and handled like foot archers.
Is there any possibility the faction bonus could be for player only and/or have decreased or different effect for NPC clans? I like the idea of the player choosing 1 bonus to help them in their game and I think it's weird all the clans get one too.

Its funny how in Warband, everyone hated the Khergits because they sucked. Now everyone hates the Khuzait because they're too good. Seems TW overcorrected on them.

The Khergits were good on the battle field but sucked at taking over towns that's why they were so bad. Their HA were incredibly and had very good cav but ground troops were sub par, but the Khuzait can pretty much do everything great.

In the very early Mount & Blade versions (long before I played) the Khergit HA were good and circled competently like in the 1257 AD warband mod, I read that mod actually uses the code from the early M & B HA version to make them circle. But players complained too much about the HA and they got nerfed to what we have in M & B and warband now...... they're annoying but not very good.

It would really suck if they nerfed them like that in BL, especially because IMO Inf and Cav are very bad (compared to WB) so you would be left with nothing to play with but archers.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Oh for sure. With some of the stuff Mexxico did he slowed down the Khuzaits' inexorable westward march. Now, by day 90, they're just warming up. If you get to day 250-300 (without mods nor player intervention) and the Khuzait are not dominating, then I'll be surprised... AND shocked.

This. People can look at my example for 1.1k days in

Is there any possibility the faction bonus could be for player only and/or have decreased or different effect for NPC clans? I like the idea of the player choosing 1 bonus to help them in their game and I think it's weird all the clans get one too.

This is drastic and they prob wont, but at this point this is what I'd do. I bet the majority of players have no idea those faction bonuses apply to all lords and wouldn't notice them disappearing off the AI with the exception of Khuzait.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

This. People can look at my example for 1.1k days in


This is drastic and they prob wont, but at this point this is what I'd do. I bet the majority of players have no idea those faction bonuses apply to all lords and wouldn't notice them disappearing off the AI with the exception of Khuzait.

Yeah I'm not expecting it, though I will be a bit rustled if my speed bonus goes down or away
I do also think the AI can't properly make use of some bonuses though, like Aseria : AI doesn't make use of extra funds like the player can and I don't even know if AI gets the bonus factored into their loot money. They don't make any caravans do they?
Empire: There bonus is only noticeable on the AI as you take down their walls as they can kinda duel you with siege weapons rebuilt faster, however you can still get them down so it kinda doesn't matter. The AI doesn't make great upgrade choices so I doubt it helps them with their fiefs much. Although I do like the bonus and if Khuzait bonus changes to something dum I would probably roll Empire.

 

[Apocal]

Why do people keep saying Huns conquered Western Rome?

I don't think anyone has said that in this thread.

 

[artemis_entreri]

I've not made a mod yet, but what I do is buff up the other factions tier 1 and 2 troops and remove horses from the tier 2 Khuzait troops.

It is the snpcharacter file in Modules/SandboxCore/ModuleData



<NPCCharacter id="imperial_recruit"
default_group="Infantry"
level="6"
civilianTemplate="NPCCharacter.empire_troop_civilian_template_t1"
name="{=s3IJIFUw}Imperial Recruit"
occupation="Soldier"
is_basic_troop="true"
culture="Culture.empire">
<face>
<face_key_template value="NPCCharacter.villager_empire" />
</face>
<skills>
<skill id="Athletics"
value="40" />
<skill id="Riding"
value="0" />
<skill id="OneHanded"
value="20" />
<skill id="TwoHanded"
value="30" />
<skill id="Polearm"
value="30" />
<skill id="Bow"
value="5" />
<skill id="Crossbow"
value="5" />
<skill id="Throwing"
value="10" />
</skills>
<equipmentSet>
<equipment slot="Item0"
id="Item.western_spear_2_t2" />
<equipment slot="Item1"
id="Item.light_horsemans_kite_shield" />
<equipment slot="Item2"
id="Item.empire_sword_1_t2" />
<equipment slot="Body"
id="Item.padded_short_coat" />
<equipment slot="Leg"
id="Item.leather_cavalier_boots" />
<equipment slot="Head"
id="Item.heavy_nasalhelm_over_laced_cloth" />
<equipment slot="Cape"
id="Item.scarf" />
<equipment slot="Gloves"
id="Item.padded_mitten" />
</equipmentSet>
<equipmentSet>
<equipment slot="Item0"
id="Item.western_spear_2_t2" />
<equipment slot="Item1"
id="Item.light_horsemans_kite_shield" />
<equipment slot="Item2"
id="Item.vlandia_2haxe_1_t4" />
<equipment slot="Body"
id="Item.padded_short_coat" />
<equipment slot="Leg"
id="Item.leather_cavalier_boots" />
<equipment slot="Head"
id="Item.heavy_nasalhelm_over_imperial_padding" />
<equipment slot="Cape"
id="Item.scarf" />
<equipment slot="Gloves"
id="Item.padded_mitten" />
</equipmentSet>
<equipmentSet>
<equipment slot="Item0"
id="Item.western_spear_2_t2" />
<equipment slot="Item1"
id="Item.light_horsemans_kite_shield" />
<equipment slot="Item2"
id="Item.empire_sword_1_t2" />
<equipment slot="Body"
id="Item.padded_short_coat" />
<equipment slot="Leg"
id="Item.leather_cavalier_boots" />
<equipment slot="Head"
id="Item.heavy_nasalhelm_over_laced_cloth" />
<equipment slot="Gloves"
id="Item.padded_mitten" />
</equipmentSet>
<upgrade_targets>
<upgrade_target id="NPCCharacter.imperial_infantryman" />
<upgrade_target id="NPCCharacter.imperial_archer" />
</upgrade_targets>
</NPCCharacter>
<NPCCharacter id="imperial_infantryman"
default_group="Infantry"
level="11"
civilianTemplate="NPCCharacter.empire_troop_civilian_template_t1"
name="{=IfjWyWjc}Imperial Infantryman"
occupation="Soldier"
culture="Culture.empire">
<face>
<face_key_template value="NPCCharacter.villager_empire" />
</face>
<skills>
<skill id="Athletics"
value="40" />
<skill id="Riding"
value="40" />
<skill id="OneHanded"
value="40" />
<skill id="TwoHanded"
value="20" />
<skill id="Polearm"
value="40" />
<skill id="Bow"
value="15" />
<skill id="Crossbow"
value="15" />
<skill id="Throwing"
value="20" />
</skills>
<equipmentSet>
<equipment slot="Item0"
id="Item.composite_bow" />
<equipment slot="Item1"
id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
<equipment slot="Item2"
id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
<equipment slot="Item3"
id="Item.empire_sword_1_t2" />
<equipment slot="Head"
id="Item.arming_coif" />
<equipment slot="Body"
id="Item.empire_warrior_padded_armor_a" />
<equipment slot="Leg"
id="Item.empire_horseman_boots" />
<equipment slot="Gloves"
id="Item.buttoned_leather_bracers" />
</equipmentSet>
<equipmentSet>
<equipment slot="Item0"
id="Item.composite_bow" />
<equipment slot="Item1"
id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
<equipment slot="Item2"
id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
<equipment slot="Item3"
id="Item.empire_sword_1_t2" />
<equipment slot="Item1"
id="Item.leather_bound_kite_shield" />
<equipment slot="Head"
id="Item.arming_coif" />
<equipment slot="Body"
id="Item.empire_warrior_padded_armor_a" />
<equipment slot="Leg"
id="Item.empire_horseman_boots" />
<equipment slot="Cape"
id="Item.scarf" />
</equipmentSet>
<equipmentSet>
<equipment slot="Item0"
id="Item.composite_bow" />
<equipment slot="Item1"
id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
<equipment slot="Item2"
id="Item.steppe_arrows" />
<equipment slot="Item3"
id="Item.empire_sword_1_t2" />
<equipment slot="Head"
id="Item.imperial_mail_coif" />
<equipment slot="Body"
id="Item.empire_warrior_padded_armor_b" />
<equipment slot="Leg"
id="Item.empire_horseman_boots" />
<equipment slot="Gloves"
id="Item.buttoned_leather_bracers" />
</equipmentSet>
<equipment slot="Horse"
id="Item.t2_khuzait_horse" />
<equipment slot="HorseHarness"
id="Item.steppe_half_barding" />
<upgrade_targets>


It seems to work, makes every faction more competitive and its more fun for me vice fighting thousands of cloth recruits.

 

[Benjamin Bones]

I've not made a mod yet, but what I do is buff up the other factions tier 1 and 2 troops and remove horses from the tier 2 Khuzait troops.

I've been thinking about this for a while now. The fact that Khuzait are able to get those raiders almost immediately has always irked me, and caused me to think that might be an enormous reason for their constant domination. However, I understand (lore-wise) why they have that ability to get mounted archers so quickly.

Still though... How many play-throughs have you experienced with the 2 tier mounted Khuzait troops removed? How big of a difference have you seen? Any other alterations to the game?

 

[Dabos37]

We are working on this issue. As you know this happen because of 2 reasons :

1- 20% mounted unit bonus at battle simulations (even at siege battle simulations) and Khuzait troops are generally mounted + AI cheats and upgrades to mounted units without spending horse (I offered disabling this cheat to one possible solution however it is rejected for now, because removing this cheat is a bit risky for gameplay - I accept)
2- Khuzait faction bonus is overpowered and it make their lord parties to run away easily from powerfull enemies nearly all time.





You can send your save game to [email protected], we know Khuzait are OP but it can be good to examine your save file which most all lords having mostly T5 units.

Hey Mexxico, nice to know you are working on this and thanks for the info.

On the other hand, as some people have stated on another Khuzaits thread, Vlandia and Battania are also overperforming in most of campaigns.

Plus it looks like Northern Empire is for some reason the weakest kingdom in terms of clans and available parties from the begging, which is probably one of the reasons because Khuzaits are overperforming.

I have played two different campaigns in 1.5.3 where I have disabled the +20% cavalry bonus in simulated battles, and what I have seen so far:

- Sturgia lost a lot of settlements against Vlandia in the first 250 days. It looks like Vlandia has a big advantage over Sturgia in terms of recruiting power and capability to form bigger armies faster.
- Khuzaits were OP in both campaigns and it was weird because even when NE was “stronger” in terms of faction Strength, for some reason Khuzaits were still able to took some settlements from NE (1v1 war without other kingdoms involved).
- Battania did pretty good in both campaigns, taking settlements from WE and Sturgia. In one of the campaigns, Battania took a lot of WE settlements and it was the strongest kingdom.

Aside from improving auto resolve and cultural bonus, it would be nice if kingdoms’ clans could get balanced. Thanks!

BTW, I love this post:

Yeah I'd agree South Empire isn't the problem child in this department, but North Empire actually is. In the table below you will see that the Max parties for NE is only 25 while the khuzait have 30. This is due to the fact NE only has 7 starter clans, and two of those only have 2 and 3 members with no starter kids, so their clan size will never grow (newborn children are bugged and aren't added as actual members as they never join the campaign map when 18, starter kids do though). It's funny that they have one of the highest amount of members but that's because there are two clans with 10 members.

In comparison while Battania only has 7 clans, their clans are filled up with at least 4 members so their max parties is close to others. Also Vlandia has a masive advantage with 10 clans and up to 36 max parties.

Kingdom	Clans	Members	Starterkids	Total Tier	Max Parties
Aserai	8	38	9	25	29
Battania	7	34	3	26	28
Khuzaut	8	38	1	26	30
Northern	7	41	0	30	25
Southern	8	38	12	27	29
Western	8	33	2	31	28
Sturgia	8	47	3	28	30
Vlandia	10	46	1	32	36

 

[Apocal]

- Khuzaits were OP in both campaigns and it was weird because even when NE was “stronger” in terms of faction Strength, for some reason Khuzaits were still able to took some settlements from NE (1v1 war without other kingdoms involved).

The Khuzaits mobilize faster, so they can take settlements before the Northern Empire gathers an army and marches to defend them. Increasing the starting garrison works to prevent that (tested by cheating myself into NE, cheating troops, then donating to garrisons). The NE's starting parties can begin the game with more bucellariis/cataphracts so they have more mounted troops to help their speed, which should work too (I didn't actually test this though). There is a targeting problem as well: the NE really likes to go for Ortongard instead of defending against the two or three Khuzait armies besieging their lands.

 

[LDominating]

The Khuzaits mobilize faster, so they can take settlements before the Northern Empire gathers an army and marches to defend them. Increasing the starting garrison works to prevent that (tested by cheating myself into NE, cheating troops, then donating to garrisons). The NE's starting parties can begin the game with more bucellariis/cataphracts so they have more mounted troops to help their speed, which should work too (I didn't actually test this though). There is a targeting problem as well: the NE really likes to go for Ortongard instead of defending against the two or three Khuzait armies besieging their lands.

This.
If I'm not mistake Amprela has a Garrison of 75 or something.
Which for a city is not a lot.
Considering that Makeb and Amprela are at Crossroads and between 2 producing cities,these should by default,imo start at atleast 6K prosperity and 150-200 high end troops.

 

[black_bulldog]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. The fact that Khuzait are able to get those raiders almost immediately has always irked me, and caused me to think that might be an enormous reason for their constant domination. However, I understand (lore-wise) why they have that ability to get mounted archers so quickly.

Still though... How many play-throughs have you experienced with the 2 tier mounted Khuzait troops removed? How big of a difference have you seen? Any other alterations to the game?

I'd actually be ok with that if they had to get horses the way the player does, which ultimately would either raise their expenses or lower the amount of mounted troops they have. I understand that sometimes the ai is allowed to "cheat", but in this case I think it's kind of bad because it leads to hordes of T2-T3 mounted troops for Khuzait giving them a huge advantage.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

BTW, I love this post:

I'm actually starting to think I may have gotten 1 thing wrong with that post. While the player clan can have 4 total parties out, for my own player kingdom I have only seen AI clans have 3 parties out at most.

My clans & their member sizes

Spoiler

Parties on the map. You'll notice no clan has more than 3.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Has anyone actually ever seen a AI clan pull out more than 3 parties? I wonder if this is a player kingdom thing or applies for AI kingdoms as well.

If it is only 3 parties max, the table would look like this.

Kingdom	Clans	Members	Starterkids	Tier	Max Parties Fixed
Aserai	8​	38​	9​	25​	23​
Battania	7​	34​	3​	26​	21​
Khuzaut	8​	38​	1​	26​	23​
Northern	7​	41​	0​	30​	20​
Southern	8​	38​	12​	27​	22​
Western	8​	33​	2​	31​	22​
Sturgia	8​	47​	3​	28​	23​
Vlandia	10​	46​	1​	32​	29​

NE now only has 3 less parties instead of 5, but Sturgia remained at 6 less parties than Vlandia.

 

[Dabos37]

Uhmmm I think that it is more about the last thing you have commented and it is about targeting

I'm actually starting to think I may have gotten 1 thing wrong with that post. While the player clan can have 4 total parties out, for my own player kingdom I have only seen AI clans have 3 parties out at most.

My clans & their member sizes

Spoiler

Parties on the map. You'll notice no clan has more than 3.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Has anyone actually ever seen a AI clan pull out more than 3 parties? I wonder if this is a player kingdom thing or applies for AI kingdoms as well.

If it is only 3 parties max, the table would look like this.

Kingdom	Clans	Members	Starterkids	Tier	Max Parties Fixed
Aserai	8​	38​	9​	25​	23​
Battania	7​	34​	3​	26​	21​
Khuzaut	8​	38​	1​	26​	23​
Northern	7​	41​	0​	30​	20​
Southern	8​	38​	12​	27​	22​
Western	8​	33​	2​	31​	22​
Sturgia	8​	47​	3​	28​	23​
Vlandia	10​	46​	1​	32​	29​

NE now only has 3 less parties instead of 5, but Sturgia remained at 6 less parties than Vlandia.

Yes, AI is only able to form 3 parties for clan while the player 4.

Thanks for the update, it still shows that Vlandia has an insane amount of parties, reason because Sturgia is not able to resist wars against Vlandia. And NE is also the weakest faction in terms of Max parties, but not as bad as before though.

 

[Anushtegin]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. The fact that Khuzait are able to get those raiders almost immediately has always irked me, and caused me to think that might be an enormous reason for their constant domination. However, I understand (lore-wise) why they have that ability to get mounted archers so quickly.

Still though... How many play-throughs have you experienced with the 2 tier mounted Khuzait troops removed? How big of a difference have you seen? Any other alterations to the game?

The Khuzaits mobilize faster, so they can take settlements before the Northern Empire gathers an army and marches to defend them. Increasing the starting garrison works to prevent that (tested by cheating myself into NE, cheating troops, then donating to garrisons). The NE's starting parties can begin the game with more bucellariis/cataphracts so they have more mounted troops to help their speed, which should work too (I didn't actually test this though). There is a targeting problem as well: the NE really likes to go for Ortongard instead of defending against the two or three Khuzait armies besieging their lands.

i've been mentioning this in my faction troop tree analysis thread before. it's ridiculous that khuzaites get a horse archer before a foot archer at tier 2 and the imperials only get a horseman by tier 5 in their regular tree, and are one of just two factions (excludign battania who doesn't have mounted noble troops) who don't start with a mounted noble troop at tier 2. imperials (and sturgians) simply lack in cavalry to deal with a neighbour like the khuzaites and it doesn't make sense in terms of both gameplay and history.

 

[Tawny]

I get that many people want variety in campaigns, with no particular faction dominating all the time. But I really hope they don’t go the route of giving all factions similar strength and troop options.

Why does the empire need to get early cav? They have a great troop tree, probably the strongest in the game. Surely there are other ways to balance than to make all factions the same.

Some thoughts about the topics in this thread:
- is it important that none of the empire factions gets defeated? They are in a civil war and they are gone by warband times
- does the player need super balanced troop trees? Is it hard to beat the AI with any single-culture army?
- is the game more fun if there is no faction that poses a greater threat? And no underdog faction?
- do we really want even more low tier armies? Or is more veteran troops exactly what is needed to present a challenge?

 

[black_bulldog]

I get that many people want variety in campaigns, with no particular faction dominating all the time. But I really hope they don’t go the route of giving all factions similar strength and troop options.

Why does the empire need to get early cav? They have a great troop tree, probably the strongest in the game. Surely there are other ways to balance than to make all factions the same.

Some thoughts about the topics in this thread:
- is it important that none of the empire factions gets defeated? They are in a civil war and they are gone by warband times
- does the player need super balanced troop trees? Is it hard to beat the AI with any single-culture army?
- is the game more fun if there is no faction that poses a greater threat? And no underdog faction?
- do we really want even more low tier armies? Or is more veteran troops exactly what is needed to present a challenge?

If you look at WB no 2 factions were alike, each had strengths and weaknesses but atm in BL we have 1 faction with too many strengths and not many weakness.
I agree balanced doesn't mean everyone is from a cookie cutter mold. Imho the empire is fine as is. The issue is that Khuzait have the best racial trait period, and they have access to t2 cavalry, and they can spam those units without the cost of horses as a resource. Then if you look at the fact that their cavalry, infantry, and foot archers are as good or better than other factions and it gives them a superiority in just about every game unless the player intervenes. It's completely wacked and I can't believe someone at TW wasn't aware of this or they didn't take the time to test to see how campaigns would play out.

 

[Tawny]

If you look at WB no 2 factions were alike, each had strengths and weaknesses but atm in BL we have 1 faction with too many strengths and not many weakness.
I agree balanced doesn't mean everyone is from a cookie cutter mold. Imho the empire is fine as is. The issue is that Khuzait have the best racial trait period, and they have access to t2 cavalry, and they can spam those units without the cost of horses as a resource. Then if you look at the fact that their cavalry, infantry, and foot archers are as good or better than other factions and it gives them a superiority in just about every game unless the player intervenes. It's completely wacked and I can't believe someone at TW wasn't aware of this or they didn't take the time to test to see how campaigns would play out.

I agree with your asessment of the Khuzait, only I’m trying to argue that it may not be an issue. If they become a passive little blob in the east it would make the empire even less threatened than they are now. I hoped that the game would really be about saving or destroying the empire, at least in the story mode we have for now. I could have been more clear in my post.

I also wish for faction diversity like in your Warband example, and it seems we are currently going in that direction. Rather than giving Sturgia and Empire earlier noble/regular horse, as mentioned in another post above, why not give Sturgia a unique noble foot line? They already have really good horse, especially given the recruit armies we are fighting, another thing I argue against because the player end up with only elites. The Empire is so strong and diverse that I don’t see them needing any troop buffs. It would be nice if getting nobles were actually tied to being a lord of the faction, that is the one thing I would change. I get the (very strong) cataphracts mainly from rescuing prisoners from the Extortion by deserters quest. If the cataphracts were more available I’d like to see the buccellarii removed.

I realize I may be in the minority here, I just want to offer a different view on the balancing. I enjoy playing the empire a lot due to the pressure they can be under, so I don’t mind the blue horde.

 

[KingEroc1st]

the whole game strategy of starting small is to keep all the major powers in balance and climb the ladder of chaos.
if the Khuzaits are getting out of hand, fight them. right now 80% of the Khuzait lords are in my prisons as i marched my army against them and fought many battles. their horse archer tactics are annoying but suicidal.don't leave them alone then realize hey they are huge!

 

[LDominating]

If you look at WB no 2 factions were alike, each had strengths and weaknesses but atm in BL we have 1 faction with too many strengths and not many weakness.
I agree balanced doesn't mean everyone is from a cookie cutter mold. Imho the empire is fine as is. The issue is that Khuzait have the best racial trait period, and they have access to t2 cavalry, and they can spam those units without the cost of horses as a resource. Then if you look at the fact that their cavalry, infantry, and foot archers are as good or better than other factions and it gives them a superiority in just about every game unless the player intervenes. It's completely wacked and I can't believe someone at TW wasn't aware of this or they didn't take the time to test to see how campaigns would play out.

They did.
In previous patches SE was the one conquering Khuzait with ease and then the rest of the map.
They also saw lots of nerfs to their units.
Imp Sergeant Crossbowman had the Imperial Lamellar with Scale Skirt(48/22/16) and the best Shoulder Plates(Dunno the name)(20/10) while the Buccellari had Imperial Lamellar and Shoulder Plates.
Overall these units had heavy nerfs in terms of simulated battles

It still is strange to me that Imp Archer and Trainer Archers don't use Longbow and Western Longbow respectively,considering Imp Arenas feature Longbows and not Recurve Bows,who by the way if we apply proper physics Recurve Bows wouldn't shoot as far as Longbows,thus HA in simulated battles would be a little more balanced.

 

[Apocal]

Overall these units had heavy nerfs in terms of simulated battles

You mean manual battles? Simulated battles only care about tier, being a hero and being mounted. Equipment doesn't change anything.