Oh quiet, racist
You specifically talked about lefties fascinated by authoritarian repressive regimes. The difference between us is that you're surprised and I'm not.I think we have quite different views on what a "lefty" is. Weird take for me but ok.
Yes, I'm one of those Ukrainian jewish neo-nazis who want to live in a liberal society.Didn't you hear the alt-right alarm go off?
"All lefties are Stalins" sounds like a reasonable statement from someone who embraces political pluralism.You specifically talked about lefties fascinated by authoritarian repressive regimes. The difference between us is that you're surprised and I'm not.
Some people simply prioritize the vertical axis over the horizontal one.
Your hate of various minority groups is not liberalism, it's what it is.Yes, I'm one of those jewish neo-nazis who want to live in a liberal society.
I see no evidence that Trump is a racist.
Let's be clear. I said what I said. That as a citizen of a very distant country, but still showing mild interest in US politics, I did not see any definite proofs that Trump was a racist. I was not provided with any good examples that would force me to change my perception.Sounds indicative of you being unable to distinguish between what is racist and what isn't. That tends to correlate with being racist according to recent research (@MadVader knows what I am talking about here).
Well, first of all, I am happy to pleasantly surprise you with the fact that people from third world countries also can access wikipedia.Also you talk about the distinction between horizontal and vertical axis of politics, and it is a pleasant surprise that you are familiar with that, but then what you are saying makes even less sense. You make it sound like all "lefties" as you call them are aligned towards authoritarianism on the anarchy/authoritarian axis. That is just not true. You are mixing the two things up no?
This is sort of spot-on."Leftists" (or at least people who call themselves that, weaver probably calls them SJWs) in the West are for the most part pro-Ukraine and anti-Putin, which is in keeping with them being in lockstep with the modern liberal establishment on most issues. Calling them broadly "authoritarian" doesn't make sense to me, because insofar as that word means solving problems by state force, nobody is abstractly an authoritarian. Just because someone gets off to policing language on Twitter, doesn't mean they look up to Putin for using force in a completely different context
The kinds of "leftists" I think Weaver is talking about are anti-imperialists and anti-establishmentarians who are reacting against the bombardment of sometimes nonsensical pro-Ukraine hysteria in the west, and they comprise basically everything between Corbyn and Tucker Carlson. But really these people can be anything politically, and in America they're mostly "right wingers". Russia Today platformed a lot of these people, and they ranged from Rightist Christian Socialists like Caleb Mauphin and Chris Hedges, to Slavoj Zizek. The kind of language they use can be found all over the political spectrum, proving that the spectrum isn't really useful in determining proximity of different viewpoints.
To some degree pro-Russia sentiment in the west is a form of rebellion against the establishment, just like the anti-mandate movement or the Trump movement, and there is a lot of overlap.
To quote Ned Stark, a madman sees what he sees. Lefties hate liberalism and are totalitarian to the core so they will be fascinated by any such regime ignoring it’s scary realities. Let’s not forget that USSR was fascinated by Hitler’s Germany as an antipode to imperialist Britain right until the great backstab.
If we disregard the US specifics, I see the pro-Russia people in Europe as populist hard-left and hard-right.To some degree pro-Russia sentiment in the west is a form of rebellion against the establishment, just like the anti-mandate movement or the Trump movement, and there is a lot of overlap.
I don't call people SJW in my day to day life. I may use the term here losely because that is a word from your world. But it is still foreign to me.
Now back to your musings. I do think calling the left politicians/influencers who would push for governmental and even societal crack-down on people with dissenting opinions authoritarian is justified. I honestly believed they were Putin's regime natural allies, given the exact same tactics they employ. As in dehumanizing people as neo-nazis on a very shaky pretense to destroy them politically or literally (in Putin's case).
The greater was my surprise when they turned out to be the most vocal supporters of Ukraine.
Someone has to riddle me that
You are clearly saying that people who fall on the left side of the political spectrum are totalitarian. You were not talking about totalitarian left. You were talking about all the left. Your English is excellent, and you are capable of intelligent thought, so I have a hard time ascribing this to anything else but bad faith.
We are not talking about some babushka with no access to the internet, but about someone, who like many young(er) people in the world, participates in global forums and belongs to global communities, using good English.You're quick to call it bad faith instead of looking for gaps in your understanding.
In former Eastern Bloc, the political compass is quite different, and what's called "left" here is very much authoritarian and collectivist leaning. In a similar way, those countries have no history of colonialism, no ingrained "systemic racism" and similar concepts that dominate such discourse in the west, and so what is considered racism is very different.
We are not talking about some babushka with no access to the internet, but about someone, who like many young(er) people in the world, participates in global forums and belongs to global communities, using good English.
There's little room for cultural differences there (like the word "liberalism" that has a different meaning in the US). "SJW" is not an old Soviet word and the Soviet world disappeared 30 years ago, making way for new political concepts brought by liberal democracies.
I know this as I grew up under communism and it didn't make me an Eastern European racist, anti-communist thug, who is merely culturally misunderstood.
Who said anything about the US understanding? I assume European understanding, because Ukraine is supposed to be in Europe and has European neighbors with political lefts.What makes you think that, especially in this discussion, the US understanding of political left is more appropriate than Ukrainian?
What makes you think that this is a US based conversation? I am Italian. Also the main reason why I am seeing bad faith is not the Donald Trump thing, it's the fact that he clearly said that all left leaning people are totalitarian, and he is trying to gaslight us into thinking that he said something different. The Trump thing is just another example of it.What makes you think that, especially in this discussion, the US understanding of political left is more appropriate than Ukrainian?
Who said anything about the US understanding? I assume European understanding, because Ukraine is supposed to be in Europe and has European neighbors with political lefts.
Social democracy is a very old concept, even taught under communism (as being wrong for compromising, but still).
Why don't you explain what exactly is the important difference, instead of repeating "no one understand us, we are special".US and Western Europe at best. You're not making an effort to understand that not the whole world-not the whole Europe, in fact-doesn't adhere to the same political compass, insult those who see things differently and consider different opinions to be inferior.
So much for argumenting in good faith.
Why don't you explain what exactly is the important difference, instead of repeating "no one understand us, we are special".
Social democracy (i.e. the moderate left) is a concept that's well known in former communist states and there are social-democratic parties in each country.
veever is kil