[Discussion Area] Redundant Units in the Troop Trees + Noble Branch tier simplification

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If you want precision, no, a descendant of Balearic slingers tells you.
A slingshot throwing lead bullets easily exceeds the range that arrows thrown from bows can reach. With small projectiles (lead bullets from 400 m onwards). But with half-fist to one fist sized stones (the rocks thrown by looters) I would place the slings (as long as they are finally introduced into the game) between the ranges of the javelins and the bows.

Of course, but what I meant is that in Bannerlord levy bowmen and crossbowmen have little differences between each other, and slingers would be more akin to them (because as you well point out they can achieve better distances than bows) that with Sturgian woodsmen, carrying only those stick javelins.
 
@Lusitani 5th Empire I have been slinging for many years and I have also fabricated them with esparto grass and pita rope (a local cactus), I have taken the measure by eye I promise ?.

@AJAJP_Juan Something like that wouldn't be bad; you know, between the range of a javelin and an arrow... mainly to give the weapon a role more as a skirmishers than as a ranged one.
 
This is a great discussion, i absolutely agree that no looter units should ever be allowed to upgrade to noble units, and this thread revealed to me some wondefull mods i honestly haven't been paying attention to (with less to no both time and desire actually playing the Singleplayer).

That made me thinking, perhaps that could change with @HalfMetalJacket @Terco_Viejo and myself potentially merging some of our mods together into 1 single module some time in the future. Troops, combat, camera, collision capsules, freehand shields, uniform colors, banners and colored settlement names, all reworked in a lite Native+ manner ?

+1, kinda like Floris Mod for Wb. Please do it guys.

Here I bring a little analysis that gathers what is commented in this thread. As I mentioned earlier I believe that in the Native there is redundancy of troops and I truly believe that there is an undefined system of strengths and weaknesses for each faction. In the regular troop tree each of the units should be well defined and framed within their role by function. Imo, only the noble troops should have "versatile" functions, which as I said, I would reduce to three units.
In the regular troop tree each of the units should be well defined and framed within their role by function. In my view, only the noble troops should have "versatile" functions, which as I said, I would reduce to three.


Melee
Missiles
I2r8-.png

At this point, a number of questions arise... For example:

Can (light-heavy) infantry be equipped with missiles? - throwable as pila or other type of spears when they do not exceed the pair of them, yes. Equipping an infantry unit with one or two bags of javelins would already be framing it in a role of which it does not belong; we would be turning it into a skirmisher.

What defines heavy cavalry in general lines? -essentially the horse's bard (and the type of horse) and the rider's panoply.

Should a ranged troop have high melee skills? The high tier would, however, never be more efficient than an average infantry tier; their function is what it is, role function ranged.

Can a shock troop have throwables? My answer is no because it would be performing a skirmisher function indirectly. This is where I put the focus on Fiann's units. High level ranged units which perform shock functions with high levels of efficiency in both melee and athletics; in my opinion they are a nonsense.

Do you see where I'm going?

So, here is a reformulation of the troop trees with defined function roles.

(Native troops - Native function - Function proposal)

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Vlandia: Cavalry push. Function role lines defined in a missiles-infantry-cavalry balance. Weaknesses, they don't have skirmishers. The noble troops would be framed within the role of Cavalry complementing itself with a high performance in melee.

Sturgia: Pure muscle structure. Role lines of function that tend towards the branch of pure infantry. Weaknesses, low level of ranged troops. The noble troops would frame them within the role of heavy cavalry being complemented with a performance in good melee.

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Khuzait: Mounted archers. Role lines of function that tend towards the branch of mounted archers, pure steppe tactics. Weaknesses; they have neither shock nor skirmishers. Noble troops would frame them within the role of mounted archers with the equipment of the heavy cavalry (bard+panoply).

Empire: All in one. All types of function roles are part of the tree in a balance of missiles-infantry-cavalry. Weaknesses; it has none, it is the Empire. The noble troops would frame them within the role of heavy cavalry complementing itself with a good performance in melee.

UwSMo.jpg

Battania: Hit and run. Role lines of function that tend towards the branch of infantry and missiles. Weaknesses: No heavy cavalry. The noble troops would frame them within the role of skirmishing cavalry complementing itself with a high performance in melee.

Aserai: Mobile force. Lines of role of function that tend towards the branch of skirmishers and missiles. Weaknesses; little presence of pure infantry or shock. The noble troops would frame them within the role of skirmishing cavalry with the equipment of the heavy cavalry (bard+panoply). With this restructuring there would be room for light cavalry camel units.

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Edit: I have slightly modified the line of Sturgia because there was a rounding (+ 1 light cavalry unit); I suppose that so much time in front of the coloured squares has caused me a small lapsus.

+1.
 
I would definitely play a mod that implemented these troop tree ideas, sound's basicaly perfect and fix all problems i have with the vanilla troop trees, also never been a fan of mods that make 300+ units on each troop tree because they only make this redundancy problem worse in my opinion.
 
Damn, hearing the dislike of more troops makes me insecure for my own mod.

That aside though, a new mod that was released today. Its basically less troops for a more streamlined progression. Nobles have like four tiers though.

De Re Militari
 
I love more troops :grin: It's all a matter of opinion.
You and like 2000 odd people lol.

That all aside though, there's no way the devs will be doing any sort of trimming down of troop trees. That causes too many compatibility issues. If there is any change, it would be more, not less.
 
I love the smell of fresh spam in the morning. :lol:

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Jokes apart; for example I would prefer a basic troop tree with no redundancy of troops following the style to what I commented previously and that the variety is provided by the minor factions. Imagine if each major faction had 5 or 10 minor factions each in a T-1/2/3 tree. In the minor factions there would be much more freedom to be creative, to contribute both aesthetic and the role variety by function and to extend the lore.
 
I love the smell of fresh spam in the morning. :lol:

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Jokes apart; for example I would prefer a basic troop tree with no redundancy of troops following the style to what I commented previously and that the variety is provided by the minor factions. Imagine if each major faction had 5 or 10 minor factions each in a T-1/2/3 tree. In the minor factions there would be much more freedom to be creative, to contribute both aesthetic and the role variety by function and to extend the lore.

Are you making a mod with you troop line suggestion?
 
Are you making a mod with you troop line suggestion?

No, unfortunately the game is too raw for that imo. I made one "troop reshape" and Taleworlds changed the values of the armour and ****ed up the whole structure; I don't blame them at all (they do their job) however this is the problem of modding an EA title, "everything is susceptible to change".
Maybe in the future when everything is a bit more defined (armor values, skills, stats, etc) I'll think if I want venturing to modify troop trees; now I prefer to give feedback for Native stuff implementation.
 
No, unfortunately the game is too raw for that imo. I made one "troop reshape" and Taleworlds changed the values of the armour and ****ed up the whole structure; I don't blame them at all (they do their job) however this is the problem of modding an EA title, "everything is susceptible to change".
Maybe in the future when everything is a bit more defined (armor values, skills, stats, etc) I'll think if I want venturing to modify troop trees; now I prefer to give feedback for Native stuff implementation.

Understood. I was actually trying to message you before to see if you needed help making a mod with all your recommendations (troop tree, horse impact, archer/arrows trajectory, etc) because I agree with you 101%, and will make the native experience more enjoyable gameplay wise and more realistic, but it did not let me send you a message. In the future let me know, give me work, and ill happily contribute for others to enjoy ur recommendations too.
 
Understood. I was actually trying to message you before to see if you needed help making a mod with all your recommendations (troop tree, horse impact, archer/arrows trajectory, etc) because I agree with you 101%, and will make the native experience more enjoyable gameplay wise and more realistic, but it did not let me send you a message. In the future let me know, give me work, and ill happily contribute for others to enjoy ur recommendations too.

In the not too distant future perhaps ? .
All those threads I opened commenting those small modifications are to put on the discussion table certain aspects of the game that I would like to propose for deliberation within the forum community; because now is the time, iT iS eArLy AcCeSs. By discussing these things among the users who participate in the conversation, we indirectly give feedback to the devs.
 
A bit off-topic, but not really

That made me thinking, perhaps that could change with @HalfMetalJacket @Terco_Viejo and myself potentially merging some of our mods together into 1 single module some time in the future. Troops, combat, camera, collision capsules, freehand shields, uniform colors, banners and colored settlement names, all reworked in a lite Native+ manner ?
Remember this @HalfMetalJacket ?
Apparently one guy has modified the whole config from my pack to use it with your More Troops mod. I don't know how many troops he renamed, if he established same tier variation in uniforms and custom shields, but seems almost done.
He will probably get in touch with you too, i have let him publish it as a patch on his own, as i didn't want to keep that updated too, TW gives me lot of headaches with updating as is :smile:
 
A bit off-topic, but not really


Remember this @HalfMetalJacket ?
Apparently one guy has modified the whole config from my pack to use it with your More Troops mod. I don't know how many troops he renamed, if he established same tier variation in uniforms and custom shields, but seems almost done.
He will probably get in touch with you too, i have let him publish it as a patch on his own, as i didn't want to keep that updated too, TW gives me lot of headaches with updating as is :smile:
He gave it to me actually. He's actually on my discord server for it. Just gotta check over some things first, haven't had time just yet.
 
The CA - Eagle Rising guys are working on incorporating the slingshots. Their incorporation into Bannerlord would be very interesting in my eyes and just as we commented regarding them, the T2 (skirmisher) suggestion I proposed would basically be the kind of units this mod introduces (A wonderful work).



The slingshots are in Wip, but I'm sure they will eventually incorporate an animation very similar to this one (very well achieved).

 
The CA - Eagle Rising guys are working on incorporating the slingshots. Their incorporation into Bannerlord would be very interesting in my eyes and just as we commented regarding them, the T2 (skirmisher) suggestion I proposed would basically be the kind of units this mod introduces (A wonderful work).



The slingshots are in Wip, but I'm sure they will eventually incorporate an animation very similar to this one (very well achieved).


Outside of the font of the text I really could not tell that was bannerlord
 
Dropping a +1 in here to your idea, and to adding slingers / making skirmishers suck less.

I play only Empire, but I do like the idea of moving Equites into the the mainline and getting rid of Viglas, doesn't make sense why a Byzantine-inspired faction would not have regular light cav to hire. I would go as far to add a Branched Noble line to Empire that lets you train up Clibinarii / Ranged Cataphracts as well as regular Cataphracts to keep up w/ Aserai and Khuzait "heavy horse archers" - that was the historical signifigance of including bow-using heavy cav into the Tagmata - to counter Sassanian and later Arabic heavy horse archers (too bad it didn't work at Manzikert, feels bad).

Really like the idea of giving javs an armor-piercing quality - really not reason to slot troops in the Skirmisher AI profile if all they will do is get yeeted by bows and arrows - but I do like horse skirmishers / skirmitry. Slingers who can out range bows (with slightly less damage) and have crazy high athletics makes me moist thinking about it. Would be a good way to bait a defensive Army out of their circle hilltop formations and sending in a cav charge.
 
Dropping a +1 in here to your idea, and to adding slingers / making skirmishers suck less.

I play only Empire, but I do like the idea of moving Equites into the the mainline and getting rid of Viglas, doesn't make sense why a Byzantine-inspired faction would not have regular light cav to hire. I would go as far to add a Branched Noble line to Empire that lets you train up Clibinarii / Ranged Cataphracts as well as regular Cataphracts to keep up w/ Aserai and Khuzait "heavy horse archers" - that was the historical signifigance of including bow-using heavy cav into the Tagmata - to counter Sassanian and later Arabic heavy horse archers (too bad it didn't work at Manzikert, feels bad).

Really like the idea of giving javs an armor-piercing quality - really not reason to slot troops in the Skirmisher AI profile if all they will do is get yeeted by bows and arrows - but I do like horse skirmishers / skirmitry. Slingers who can out range bows (with slightly less damage) and have crazy high athletics makes me moist thinking about it. Would be a good way to bait a defensive Army out of their circle hilltop formations and sending in a cav charge.
FQbLj.jpg


Well, you are on the right track, mate; very much in line with what I think the empire "should" be.

Look at the scheme I suggested on page #1 (native left - suggestion right).

I'm refering to empire suggestion part:

The infantry branch on the left, would lead to a light cavalry unit, eques style (melee). On the other hand, on the right branch, the T2 would be a pure psiloi (I prefer sling but javelins it's ok). Without hesitation, yes call me crazy, I would get rid of ALL the crossbow units. All ranged from T3 to T5, equipped with bow following the toxotei panoply; the T5 being the palatine guard.

Now comes the fun part :lol: . The T3 ranged on the left would be a peltasta unit, this would evolve into a Bucellarius / Trapezitai (bow + arrows + short throwable spear + panamerion) and from this evolves into a Cataphract (bow + arrows + kontos + mace).

The "noble line", as I said before I would reduce it to 3 heavy cavalry units (melee) at each level more armoured. The first one (T4) would be a Koursōr unit (spear+shield+secondary (axe/sword)), this one would evolve to Clibanarius (kontos+shield+secondary (mace)) and the last one would evolve to Royal/Elite Clibanarius (spear+shield+secondary (mace)).
 
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Well, you are on the right track, mate; very much in line with what I think the empire "should" be.

Look at the scheme I suggested on page #1 (native left - suggestion right).

I'm refering to empire suggestion part:

The infantry branch on the left, would lead to a light cavalry unit, eques style (melee). On the other hand, on the right branch, the T2 would be a pure psiloi (I prefer sling but javelins it's ok). Without hesitation, yes call me crazy, I would get rid of ALL the crossbow units. All ranged from T3 to T5, equipped with bow following the toxotei panoply; the T5 being the palatine guard.

Now comes the fun part :lol: . The T3 ranged on the left would be a peltasta unit, this would evolve into a Bucellarius / Trapezitai (bow + arrows + short throwable spear + panamerion) and from this evolves into a Cataphract (bow + arrows + kontos + mace).

The "noble line", as I said before I would reduce it to 3 heavy cavalry units (melee) at each level more armoured. The first one (T4) would be a Koursōr unit (spear+shield+secondary (axe/sword)), this one would evolve to Clibanarius (kontos+shield+secondary (mace)) and the last one would evolve to Royal/Elite Clibanarius (spear+shield+secondary (mace)).

Okay, now I am tracking, I was reading it wrong! I need big crayons to know what to look at lol.

I agree 100% with all of your suggestions - especially taking out the Crossbows - they feel out of place and don't add much except for confusing the player. It also takes away from a Vlandian (Norman) playthrough who are supposed to have (historically + in-game lore) some of the better crossbowmen.

I also agree with the addition of a mace to the Cataphract/Clibinarius units - there probably needs to be some AI profile changes up and down the codebase because I see Elite Cataphracts stick with using their Kontos up close when they should swap to their sabre/spatha and the Bucellarii will pull out their sabres/spatha versus retreating away to put more arrows on people.

I know the sources are hard to nail down exactly what the Romans/Byzantines meant by Clibinarius but I took it to mean Cataphracts + Bows/Javs - of course it could be referring local auxiliary units. Not like the Romans didn't have experience with that manner of warfare - Aetius had a healthy contingent of Hunnic horse archer/skirmishers/lancers and there are also a lot of Parthian/Sarmatian/Alan/Pontic contingents used.

I think we are definitely in line - I love these suggestions and hope to see it implemented. (As well as the others!)
 
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