The cavalry has insufficient impact.

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The section on training recruits is found in a previous Book. In Book III he lays out the details and reasoning of a tagma's formation. Additionally, Maurice's words do call for a gallop to be used in other situations.

Just not during a charge against a formed enemy.
It is from Book III: Formations of the Tagma. Nowhere else in the book contains as detailed a description of formations, nor does Maurice indicate that these formations are suitable only for training. Elsewhere (notably in the section of another Book) he is clear to specify the difference between training ("these exercises are suitable for the march") and tactical uses.
We're going in circles now. Again, none of the quotes you provided describe a battle tactic, but a drill. And we just went over what is a drill. Moreover, in the section about the tactics against Persians what he describes aligns pretty well with what the authors of Napoleonic Era describe, that is approach at trot and speed up to gallop in the last few hundred meters.

Watching the first video... that's a canter when they are actually in formation. They maintain a canter in the formation shot until 2:14 (roughly). The next formation shot at 2:19 is already uneven and beginning to break apart. It is also when they begin galloping (i.e. they couldn't hold ranks even at a fast canter). Secondly, that formation isn't as dense as Maurice's description of a tagma's formation, nor is it as deep. Five deep was on the shallow end of tagmatic cavalry and they were pressed closely enough together that the front-rank was literally shielding every horseman behind them. This was tactically important because the men behind them were armed with bows and less barding on their horses, making them somewhat more vulnerable to arrows and other missiles being flung their way.
Fair enough, it's not exactly what Maurice describes, but then again it wasn't what I was trying to prove with that video, they did manage to gallop for a while in a relatively even formation and that proves that it can be trained.

In the second video, those mounted police are not galloping at any point. Why did you link it?
Looks like a gallop to me, also the description says
From Maguire & Baucus catalogues: A troop of mounted police, in full dress uniform, are seen approaching the audience at full gallop
 
By intention of the rider though, horse's intention is irrelevant here, since it has no say.

Given you posted it to disproof that "...it is against the nature of a horse to ride into a solid obstacle" from the source I have cited, you have just admitted yourself to be wrong.

So the words "penetrated a corner of the formation" and "pushed through to the rear" do not strike you as implying that there was a collision? That is just denial at this point.

Corners and rears of formations are abstract things, they are not physical objects and you can't collide in to them physically, therefore it's pretty clear that people who wrote it did not speak about physical collisions between objects, they were talking about abstract collision of one formation in to another.

Considering how you treat what you're provided with I'm not surprised. It's easy to claim that you've seen no proofs when you just ignore them.

You did not even try yet, so you can't know.

It's completely irrelevant how many times you try to deny facts, at certain point no one will take you seriously.

No one means you?
 
We're going in circles now. Again, none of the quotes you provided describe a battle tactic, but a drill.

When the translation says "drill" they mean for use in battle. Otherwise what is the "actual use" for the Italian drill? When he says drills should be varied to prevent spies and deserters from knowing their plans for battle, why do you think that refers to a purely training exercise?

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In fact, he outright says the drills and formations from the earlier chapters (the ones you insist are not for battle) are to be used on the day of battle.
Book VII: Strategy, The Points the General Must Consider, Points to be Observed on the Day of Battle, No. 17 in part reads:
On the day of battle, each soldier should carry in his saddlebags a flask of water and a measure or two of biscuit or meal. Before the end of the battle while the fighting is still going on, no soldier should be allowed to plunder the enemy, and this order should be frequently proclaimed.

The tagma should be formed according to the symbols and diagrams given above.


On the march the soldiers should not get mixed in with the baggage trains, especially if contact with the enemy is expected. Each bandon should march ahead by itself, and the trains to the rear or in such other position as the situation dictates.

Drills should be done according to the movements explained earlier
and, if an officer does not know them, details of the nine exercises described should be given him in writing.


Fair enough, it's not exactly what Maurice describes, but then again it wasn't what I was trying to prove with that video, they did manage to gallop for a while in a relatively even formation and that proves that it can be trained.

Looks like a gallop to me, also the description says

The men in the first video didn't gallop for awhile in relatively even formation -- it lasted (by timestamps) for less than five seconds. In the second video, the description is flat wrong: you can clearly see a three-beat motion. That is a canter.
 
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Given you posted it to disproof that "...it is against the nature of a horse to ride into a solid obstacle" from the source I have cited, you have just admitted yourself to be wrong.
How? All this time I was arguing with the implication of the article that follows a logic "it's against nature of a horse => therefore it was never done", which is bs and we've seen that the horse's nature doesn't prevent it from charging a stone well if the rider decides to do so.

Corners and rears of formations are abstract things, they are not physical objects and you can't collide in to them physically, therefore it's pretty clear that people who wrote it did not speak about physical collisions between objects, they were talking about abstract collision of one formation in to another.
So you admit that there was a collision? Case closed then.

When the translation says "drill" they mean for use in battle. Otherwise what is the "actual use" for the Italian drill? When he says drills should be varied to prevent spies and deserters from knowing their plans for battle, why do you think that refers to a purely training exercise?
Again, I pointed out to you already that I never said that it's not meant for use in actual battle, why do you keep bringing this up? I even gave you a comparison with weightlifters, if you want, you can read the definition as well
Drill, preparation of soldiers for performance of their duties in peace and war through the practice and rehearsal of prescribed movements. In a practical sense, drill consolidates soldiers into battle formations and familiarizes them with their weapons. Psychologically, it develops a sense of teamwork, discipline, and self-control; it promotes automatic performance of duties under disturbing circumstances and instinctive response to the control and stimulus of leaders.
What is the "actual use" for the Italian drill I don't know, but there's definitely no "actual use" mark in the drill we've been discussing. And observing drills of an enemy is a very valuable information since you'll know what kind of maneuvers they are capable of and it can give you a sense of the general tactics they are going to employ so you could form a battle plan in advance. That's probably why Maurice felt that it's necessary to conceal them.

The men in the first video didn't gallop for awhile in relatively even formation -- it lasted (by timestamps) for less than five seconds. In the second video, the description is flat wrong: you can clearly see a three-beat motion. That is a canter.
Well, certainly not from my perspective, I counted more than five seconds and in the second video I counted 4 beats. I believe this isn't going anywhere. And you completely ignored the article about Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Tactics, which I find strange, since it actually provides a common ground we could form a consensus at.
 
Again, I pointed out to you already that I never said that it's not meant for use in actual battle, why do you keep bringing this up?
You said:
Drills, even today, serve as a teaching tool first and foremost, so are not intended to be used as is in a combat situation...

Meanwhile Maurice said, "Drills should be done according to the movements explained earlier..." And this was in a section entitled "Points to be Observed on the Day of Battle." There is no way to interpret this as training recruits or getting them accustomed to new commands. Furthermore, as I said prior, he included the training portions in another section entirely and even then used the term "exercises" was used to indicate things done for training purposes only, not suitable for use in battle.

What is the "actual use" for the Italian drill I don't know,

That was a rhetorical question. The answer is literally in the first sentence.

Well, certainly not from my perspective, I counted more than five seconds and in the second video I counted 4 beats. I believe this isn't going anywhere. And you completely ignored the article about Napoleonic Wars Cavalry Tactics, which I find strange, since it actually provides a common ground we could form a consensus at.

I ignored it because Napoleon's own tactics (generalizing) were to put infantry squares into disarray before committing his cavalry in a charge. Reminder of my actual claim: cavalry that charged into well-formed infantry did so at a trot.



And as an aside, you ignored four posts where I mentioned that if a horse collides with something at high-speed, the rider will probably fall off. If they were to gallop into a formed block of infantry and actually hit one of those infantry, the riders would be very likely to be unhorsed.
 
You might be the victim of Holywood effect. When we think of cavalry, the first thing comes up to mind is the Riders of Rohan from Lord of the Rings.

 
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How? All this time I was arguing with the implication of the article that follows a logic "it's against nature of a horse => therefore it was never done", which is bs and we've seen that the horse's nature doesn't prevent it from charging a stone well if the rider decides to do so.

Then you did not read carefully:

But it is against the nature of a horse to ride into a solid obstacle, so the cavalry attack took one of two forms: Either the horse did a turn (a rollback, demi-pirouette or volte-face) before it met the target, or it passed the target.47 There is no tactically correct third choice – crashing into the target, with horse and rider being cast down, is documented, but can hardly be called “tactically correct” as the fighter is rendered hors combat.

I have marked for you part that you have missed.

So you admit that there was a collision? Case closed then.

You may reconsider if you want to argue in a bad faith.
 
The best known usage of military lances was that of the full-gallop closed-ranks charge of a group of knights with underarm-couched lances, against lines of infantry, archery regiments, defensive embankments, and opposition cavalry. Two variants on the couched lance charge developed, the French method, en haie, with lancers in a double line and the German method, with lancers drawn up in a deeper formation which was often wedge-shaped. It is commonly believed that this became the dominant European cavalry tactic in the 11th century after the development of the cantled saddle and stirrups (the Great Stirrup Controversy), and of rowel spurs (which enabled better control of the mount). Cavalry thus outfitted and deployed had a tremendous collective force in their charge, and could shatter most contemporary infantry lines. Recent evidence has suggested, however, that the lance charge was effective without the benefit of stirrups.[2]
This is achieved by constant training and practice.
 
Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion the same way I am entitled to mine. As for the proof... you might want to watch these:



As for the first vid, the easiest moment to pick up is probably at around 1:52. When you look at the white horse, there are three distinct beats, with hind and fore legs grounding together, making it a canter.
The first obvious gallop I see (I don't claim to be an expert of any kind) is around 2:35, most easily distinguishable on the leftmost horse of the front row - you can see all four legs grounding separately. At this point there isn't much of a formation to speak of.

The second video doesn't show galloping horses, I think.
 
Meanwhile Maurice said, "Drills should be done according to the movements explained earlier..." And this was in a section entitled "Points to be Observed on the Day of Battle." There is no way to interpret this as training recruits or getting them accustomed to new commands.
Drills are also done to maintain and reinforce the already known maneuvers and commands. Same as with sports a skill that isn't practiced regularly decreases in performance.

Furthermore, as I said prior, he included the training portions in another section entirely and even then used the term "exercises" was used to indicate things done for training purposes only, not suitable for use in battle.
Don't mix exercises and drills, the author separated them for a reason as well.

That was a rhetorical question. The answer is literally in the first sentence.
If we assume that you're right, then he separates drills from drills for actual use, which goes against your narrative that the aforementioned drill we've been discussing was used "as is".

I ignored it because Napoleon's own tactics (generalizing) were to put infantry squares into disarray before committing his cavalry in a charge. Reminder of my actual claim: cavalry that charged into well-formed infantry did so at a trot.
That's your initial claim, which lies on another claim that a cavalry charge can't be done at a gallop in a tight formation, and it's exactly what they describe there. Also they did charge into well-formed unbroken infantry as well, however the success rate wasn't exactly high, since a single cavalryman had to face 6 muskets if cavakry, even tightly formed, charged a square of infantry.
  • In 1813 at Dresden the Austrian square repulsed French cuirassiers but surrendered without a fight to lancers. Another square also repulsed cuirassiers but broke when 50 French lancers attacked them. The frustrated cuirassiers joined the lancers and together finished off the enemy.
  • In 1813 at Katzbach the lancers were called after the 23rd Chasseurs was repulsed. The lancers came and broke the square, inflicting heavy casualties on the Prussians.
  • In 1813 at Dennewitz one squadron of Polish 2nd Uhlan Regiment attacked Prussian battalion of 3rd Reserve Infantry Regiment. The infantry was formed in a column with skirmishers as its screen. The uhlans routed the skirmishers killing several and attacked the column. The Prussians were "savagely handled". The 2nd Uhlans also broke 2 other squadrons at Dennewitz

And as an aside, you ignored four posts where I mentioned that if a horse collides with something at high-speed, the rider will probably fall off. If they were to gallop into a formed block of infantry and actually hit one of those infantry, the riders would be very likely to be unhorsed.
Yeah I did ignore that since considering that if we manage to come to a conclusion that high speed charges were done(and I think it should be obvious by now that they were) this statement will be proven wrong as well.

Then you did not read carefully:

But it is against the nature of a horse to ride into a solid obstacle, so the cavalry attack took one of two forms: Either the horse did a turn (a rollback, demi-pirouette or volte-face) before it met the target, or it passed the target.47 There is no tactically correct third choice – crashing into the target, with horse and rider being cast down, is documented, but can hardly be called “tactically correct” as the fighter is rendered hors combat.

I have marked for you part that you have missed.
And what did I miss exactly? The author clearly says that if it's against the nature of a horse, therefore it either turned or passed the target and the third choice is "incorrect". And we can clearly see that this logic is flawed through and through, looking at all the provided arguments.

You may reconsider if you want to argue in a bad faith.
You did admit that they collided, right? Or are you arguing that they collided "abstractly" but not "physically"? How do you imagine then the cavalry penetrating a formation and pushing through to the rear without a physical collision with the infantry?

As for the first vid, the easiest moment to pick up is probably at around 1:52. When you look at the white horse, there are three distinct beats, with hind and fore legs grounding together, making it a canter.
The first obvious gallop I see (I don't claim to be an expert of any kind) is around 2:35, most easily distinguishable on the leftmost horse of the front row - you can see all four legs grounding separately. At this point there isn't much of a formation to speak of.

The second video doesn't show galloping horses, I think.
Thanks for the input, I'm not a cavalry expert either, but it did seem to me like a gallop. And if I'm wrong and it's not a gallop, then it's clearly a gait faster than a trot, meaning that at least charging at a faster rate than a trot is possible. But I won't push it, if it's not obvious that it's a gallop to people, then I can't press you to believe otherwise. I tried to find a more obvious example but wasn't lucky so far.
 
But I won't push it, if it's not obvious that it's a gallop to people, then I can't press you to believe otherwise. I tried to find a more obvious example but wasn't lucky so far.
I've spent a lot of time staring at the second video and I can't visually distinguish legs at all xD. I can't reliably say it isn't a gallop, but their speed doesn't look to be fast enough. It's the nature of old footage though, nothing we can do.
 
I am just gunna say this if you think cavalry went at a canter into enemy formations you are absolutely bonkers it is called a charge for a reason lol.
Speed is an essential part of lance combat as it increases the energy transferred making it more devastating and deadly.
 
Np bud these things happen eh

Collisions? Yes, but either as accidents or exceptions. Cavalry did not use their horses as a battering rams in charges. They used their actual weapons.

You still have one of them as my qoute lol

Damit, where? I corrected all those I could find...

Without colliding with infantry? How?

I already told you, by fighting their way through. The same as way infantry penetrated enemy formations.
 
The same way as tanks in this sentence:

Tanks were the shock means for penetrating the defense.
The Evolution of Soviet Operational Art, 1927-1991

They fought their way through it.
Depends how deep the formation was wether they scattered or kept discipline etc shock and awe speed and power.
Best case scenario for cavalry is to come out the other side and continue to fight to their strengths.
Getting bogged down is not a good thing for cavalry cataphracts were more designed for that type of combat than others being so heavily armoured for the time period.


Damit, where? I corrected all those I could find...
Post 95 xD
 
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