A confession which has to be made.
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Uhtred Dunkerch said:
Idd. The demege done might be lower but Tallie could make USA team drop out of the tournament in group stage. He 'confesed' after semies and harm he would have done would be irreversible. I also can't agree to such low punishment as 3 matches. This kind of cheating can ruin months of training of a team that would be eliminated. Absense of 3 matches of one player sound like a poor joke comapre to that.
Effect of his cheating would not only distort results of this year comeptition but could also affect futher tournaments. Last year Poland was eliminated in 1/8 by Russia with really small difference. Despite Russia was disqualified that year they were in 1st basket which imho resulted in unbalanced group stage. We had to play Germany already in 1/8 and I think the braket was unfair for them. They either would play Turkey or us - two teams that over the years had the best results in NCs.
To the point: Small things like this can mess up the outcome of tournaments. Luckily he wasn't good enough to carry Georgia but I don't think he deserves special treatment because of that.
Sir Galahad the Pure said:
True, but technicially Tallie was a part of two teams a the same time and I don't see how this is any better, if that's what you meant.
I agree that Tallie's influence on the outcome of the tournament was fairly low to non existend however this shouldn't be considered pro his defence. Thus I believe Tallie, as well as MihaWk, should at least be treated the same way as R1ch and Grifon. It's up to the tournament admins to take any further actions. But this is more of a fundamental question about how we, the community, and the tournament organisation treat cheaters.
Harman said:
This.
Scar said:
bs. Why don't you guys look at the facts? He didn't change anthing in this tournament. Stop saying like: ''YE BUT HE COULDVE". He didn't, end of discussion. I don't like having a cheater in my team, and if he did change anthing in this tournament, i wouldve kicked him from the BeNe team myself as long as i play in BeNe. He made a huge mistake, he's aware of that. I'm not saying that he shouldn't get punished, but just don't even compare Tallie with R1ch. Just don't.
And for Harman. He doesn't get a special treatment. But we both know that Tallie will not do this anymore, something im not quite sure of with Grifon or R1ch.
A NC ban isn't the solution. A few matches will do.
Bishopuser said:
Sharia law?
This is one of the first cases of genuine (unconscious) discrimination I've heard so far on this forum. I would really prefer to keep the world clear of it, since unconscious discrimination is by far the worst in my eyes.
It is claimed that R1ch joined Russia to help them win the tournament? I call bull****, there is not a single player out there who'd cheat to help ANOTHER team win a tournament. I highly doubt that there is anyone who would find solace in seeing another team win the tournament. He joined team Russia, because he still wanted to play in the NC even though he couldn't play in his own team (because his team got eliminated).
Tallie on the other hand played for team Georgia, because he still wanted to play in the NC even though he couldn't play in his own team. By participating in a tournament, you are automatically aiming for a victory of some sorts. Participating in a tournament without any goal is extremely demoralizing and not very likely at this level of play. Thus Tallie was also in it to win at least something, be it gaining experience, enjoying the game with his friends or even possibly winning a match.
How come I am so knowledgeable about what R1ch intended? He actually hinted something like joining another team to still be able to play in the NC, but only a few actually figured out he was serious (me excluded, I was too stupid at the time
).
Thus their intentions were more or less the same in this case and also:
Tallie was also fraudently playing for another team, why is this emphasized in R1ch's case?
Sorry for going too far off-topic, just felt this needed adressing.
It is claimed that R1ch joined Russia to help them win the tournament? I call bull****, there is not a single player out there who'd cheat to help ANOTHER team win a tournament. I highly doubt that there is anyone who would find solace in seeing another team win the tournament. He joined team Russia, because he still wanted to play in the NC even though he couldn't play in his own team (because his team got eliminated).
Tallie on the other hand played for team Georgia, because he still wanted to play in the NC even though he couldn't play in his own team. By participating in a tournament, you are automatically aiming for a victory of some sorts. Participating in a tournament without any goal is extremely demoralizing and not very likely at this level of play. Thus Tallie was also in it to win at least something, be it gaining experience, enjoying the game with his friends or even possibly winning a match.
How come I am so knowledgeable about what R1ch intended? He actually hinted something like joining another team to still be able to play in the NC, but only a few actually figured out he was serious (me excluded, I was too stupid at the time
).Thus their intentions were more or less the same in this case and also:
Aeronwen said:
Tallie was also fraudently playing for another team, why is this emphasized in R1ch's case?
Sorry for going too far off-topic, just felt this needed adressing.
And how do you exactly know that he just wanted to keep playing on NC even though his team was eliminated? I call bull****, R1ch hasn't given any explanation about that concern yet, as far as I know.Watly said:
Also, you're kinda contradicting yourself: if someone plays IN THE FINAL his ultimate goal is obviously helping "his team" to win the match and consequently the tournament, what else would it be? Was the Russian captain silly enough to let a not motivated player play in the final? I doubt so. As well as I doubt that R1ch cares much about teams' spirit, that's why he wasn't helping "ANOTHER" team, he was helping the team he was playing for to win.
EDIT: Anyway, all of us who don't cheat should go on the same way xD. I'm okay with all the opinions and actions that could be made to avoid cheaters!
Neathar said:
Im not, am i ? I am free to give my opinion. If Youre manipulated this quick then i highly suggest you to find a doctor.
Néathar
Master Knight
Ceasar said:
This is what people call an imperative. You didn't say "In my opinion it's wrong to compare..", you said "don't". This attitude is disrespectful against the beforehand stated opinion of other guys, whose opinion indeed is, that both are comparable. That's what I pointed out. Not more, not less.
"I should go see a doctor because the way you said this annoyed me?" -> So you want to take this out on the personal level again, sheesh..
Watly said:This is one of the first cases of genuine (unconscious) discrimination I've heard so far on this forum. I would really prefer to keep the world clear of it, since unconscious discrimination is by far the worst in my eyes.
It is claimed that R1ch joined Russia to help them win the tournament? I call bull****, there is not a single player out there who'd cheat to help ANOTHER team win a tournament. I highly doubt that there is anyone who would find solace in seeing another team win the tournament. He joined team Russia, because he still wanted to play in the NC even though he couldn't play in his own team (because his team got eliminated).
Tallie on the other hand played for team Georgia, because he still wanted to play in the NC even though he couldn't play in his own team. By participating in a tournament, you are automatically aiming for a victory of some sorts. Participating in a tournament without any goal is extremely demoralizing and not very likely at this level of play. Thus Tallie was also in it to win at least something, be it gaining experience, enjoying the game with his friends or even possibly winning a match.
How come I am so knowledgeable about what R1ch intended? He actually hinted something like joining another team to still be able to play in the NC, but only a few actually figured out he was serious (me excluded, I was too stupid at the time
Thus their intentions were more or less the same in this case and also:
Aeronwen said:
Tallie was also fraudently playing for another team, why is this emphasized in R1ch's case?
Sorry for going too far off-topic, just felt this needed adressing.
Just want to point out I didn't highlight fraudulently, so its not an accurate quote. In addition, it is also a partial quote. Although I was pointing out a difference of intent I have not suggested a more lenient punishment for Talllie, in fact I said I would be happy with a harsher one. So I am not quite sure why you are suggesting I am discriminating against R1ch. As for why 'fraudently' is emphasised, well you bolded it so you tell us!
I will say that Tallie confessing when he did was a help to the admins, I still think his confession and apology count for something.
I bolded it, because I found it peculiar that it had to be told that R1ch's case was fraudulent, while the word is completely omitted in the sentence you used for Tallie even though they committed more or less the same offence. Your post consisted of 3 individual parts that could be considered three individual posts, thus I picked the part that I wanted to address.
In your post, you assume that R1ch joined team Russia simply to help them win. How do you know?
Let me pick up a dictionary (it's quite dusty, but it still seems to work) and look up the definition of a tournament: "A series of contests in which a number of contestants compete and the one that prevails through the final round or that finishes with the best record is declared the winner." Now, let's pick the definition competing: "To strive against another or others to attain a goal, such as an advantage or victory."
This means that anyone who joins a team in a tournament is automatically in it to achieve some goal. Both R1ch and Tallie were in it to achieve something, thus both of them went for a victory of some form. This makes their intents roughly the same.
That said, Tallie's case should still be treated differently from R1ch's case, since the effects on the tournament were different. While it shouldn't count for much, this still has to be taken into consideration. The only problem is that any milder punishment than R1ch's would be too mild, so you automatically arrive at a same punishment
In your post, you assume that R1ch joined team Russia simply to help them win. How do you know?
Let me pick up a dictionary (it's quite dusty, but it still seems to work) and look up the definition of a tournament: "A series of contests in which a number of contestants compete and the one that prevails through the final round or that finishes with the best record is declared the winner." Now, let's pick the definition competing: "To strive against another or others to attain a goal, such as an advantage or victory."
This means that anyone who joins a team in a tournament is automatically in it to achieve some goal. Both R1ch and Tallie were in it to achieve something, thus both of them went for a victory of some form. This makes their intents roughly the same.
That said, Tallie's case should still be treated differently from R1ch's case, since the effects on the tournament were different. While it shouldn't count for much, this still has to be taken into consideration. The only problem is that any milder punishment than R1ch's would be too mild, so you automatically arrive at a same punishment
It is the act of purposely breaking a rule that matters. Not what a near infinite number of possible scenarios might derive from that.
Just because R1ch is better than Tallie and might carry more consequences by playing illegally doesn't mean that Tallie should be punished less.
Just because R1ch is better than Tallie and might carry more consequences by playing illegally doesn't mean that Tallie should be punished less.
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