Incognitoandahalf
Recruit
Incognitoandahalf said:
May i ask why no decision has been made?
Would you prefer a period name? Are NA regiments not accepted?
The Deluge Reloaded - NEW EVENT
- Thread starter Czeremis
- Start date
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May i ask why no decision has been made?
Would you prefer a period name? Are NA regiments not accepted?
Czeremis
Sergeant at Arms
Incognitoandahalf said:
Of course you are welcome, sorry for delay but as you see this thread is not being updated regurlary
See you on Saturday, anyway I'll contact you on Steam.
About the upcoming battle - this time we have Cossacks vs HRE, enjoy!
After the battle I would like all the leaders to gather and discuss some new ideas about changing the event rules (going to inform everyone about it personally)
Where can I apply for an clan? Is this event coming saturday?
LittleJohn135
Recruit
1. LittleJohn135
2. I will.
3. Polish
4. I can load cannons, but i cant well aim.
My first event :>
2. I will.
3. Polish
4. I can load cannons, but i cant well aim.
My first event :>
I hate to moan but I'm really not a fan of bringing engineers to the event. All I saw today was the 26thNC turning where ever they stopped into what looking like where a giant ass mole had just passed through. It's a real pain for regiment that want to fight in proper face to face fighting combat.
SolidXerm
Squire
I have to agree with the above sentiments. While it is a perfectly sensible tactic, it did hinder the flow of battle significantly - To the level where direct confrontation was rarely an option and The Deluge turned into The Verdun. Another problem which one of our fellows have raised is that there's hardly any pike-on-pike combat. We sorely lack pike regiments, which is a shame considering how cool it would be to see two pike blocks clash in actual legit combat. I know the latter is not really a thing we could control, but I would've liked to mention it still.
We have given it a try before. It was incredible yet also rather deadly.
The problem with pike-on-pike combat stems from several areas; number of pikemen needed, actually meeting the opposing pikemen on the field & prevalence of musketry, and formations in Warband.
1. Number of pikemen needed
The big problem is that we turn up as very small units that run off on their own or with vague direction from a general officer. As such most units that turn up go for a large amount of musketeers. as though it were 1704 rather than 1654, with a handful of pikemen standing around waiting for the occasional cavalry unit to threaten or for the musketeers to actually go into melee. A couple of pikemen are not going to represent an entire pike unless you have 15, 20 or more together to form the ranks.
2. Actually meeting the opposing pikemen on the field & prevalence of musketry
Something that enforces the above situation is the difficulty in getting pikemen into contact. In order to have a pike-on-pike fight, if we had the numbers of pikemen in the blocks, we'd need to get them into contact on the large maps we use. Which means a lot of marching for the pikemen whilst being shot at by the large number of musketeers and maybe, eventually, they'll get into contact. If they're lucky. If the opposing pikemen aren't miles away in another part of the field.
The amount of musketry on the field is an extension of this problem. Any unit that stands in a tight formation, as they should per tactics of the time, will get butchered by musketry. This is due to the higher level of accuracy compared to reality. Muskets were 'bored' to the size/weight of shotte they fired, the most common being 12 bore (12 shottes from 1lb of lead). All sorts of factors may arise that mean you could have a smaller ball than your musket is sized for - your musket might even be over-bored, so that for example even a perfectly cast 12 bore shotte will bounce and rattle inside the muzzle as the gasses propel it on it's way. Then there's the matter of the balls not being perfectly cast, being dented or bashed in transit, all of which add to the way the gasses propel the ball and alter it's level of accuracy.
3. Formations in Warband
Warband is a fickle beast when it comes to formations. You can do it when static but when on the move it becomes a lot harder. It's possible, doable as the video I linked shows. BUT it's not easy and requires everyone to have the same mentality. What a good pike-on-pike fight would require, apart from numbers & not being shot up before they make contact, is to have the pikemen keep their formation, to not split apart once they've made contact. If you look at most of the melee that happens at events, it involves formations breaking apart into clumps of little duels, rather than massed combat between formations.
Is there a solution?
Damned if I know whether there is or not. I've had ideas, plenty of them, but it requires a lot from people. What we in the Lucky Dogs had intended to do was try out a skirmish between two forces, each approximately a Company strong - two sleeves/wings of shotte and a body of pike, with everyone distributed between them irregardless of clan/rank. Each block would be under the command of an 'officer' who knew what to do (commands, drills etc), with an overall commanding officer for each side. The fighting would purposefully take place at short range using simple period tactics/drills - fire by salvee, fire by introduction/extroduction - with the pikemen advancing into contact with the other pike block.
However this approach runs into problems - everyone involved needs to be trained in and to remember the commands/drills, they need to be willing to take part in such a short-range battle whilst keeping their formation, without running off to do their own thing, obeying the commands relayed to them by the officer of their block. Clans get rather upset about not being able to fight together as a group and by instinct do not wish to be broken up. It may not be of interest to people who just want perform a psuedo-1815 line battle rather than the tactics of the time period.
Regarding engineers/shovels...
...no thank'ee! Throwing up an earthen barrier in such a short time is neither realistic nor healthy for the flow of battle within the mod - afterall why advance if you can sit at the back of the battlefield creating a small fort you can hide in, instead of engaging in the spirit of 17th century fighting?
The problem with pike-on-pike combat stems from several areas; number of pikemen needed, actually meeting the opposing pikemen on the field & prevalence of musketry, and formations in Warband.
1. Number of pikemen needed
The big problem is that we turn up as very small units that run off on their own or with vague direction from a general officer. As such most units that turn up go for a large amount of musketeers. as though it were 1704 rather than 1654, with a handful of pikemen standing around waiting for the occasional cavalry unit to threaten or for the musketeers to actually go into melee. A couple of pikemen are not going to represent an entire pike unless you have 15, 20 or more together to form the ranks.
2. Actually meeting the opposing pikemen on the field & prevalence of musketry
Something that enforces the above situation is the difficulty in getting pikemen into contact. In order to have a pike-on-pike fight, if we had the numbers of pikemen in the blocks, we'd need to get them into contact on the large maps we use. Which means a lot of marching for the pikemen whilst being shot at by the large number of musketeers and maybe, eventually, they'll get into contact. If they're lucky. If the opposing pikemen aren't miles away in another part of the field.
The amount of musketry on the field is an extension of this problem. Any unit that stands in a tight formation, as they should per tactics of the time, will get butchered by musketry. This is due to the higher level of accuracy compared to reality. Muskets were 'bored' to the size/weight of shotte they fired, the most common being 12 bore (12 shottes from 1lb of lead). All sorts of factors may arise that mean you could have a smaller ball than your musket is sized for - your musket might even be over-bored, so that for example even a perfectly cast 12 bore shotte will bounce and rattle inside the muzzle as the gasses propel it on it's way. Then there's the matter of the balls not being perfectly cast, being dented or bashed in transit, all of which add to the way the gasses propel the ball and alter it's level of accuracy.
3. Formations in Warband
Warband is a fickle beast when it comes to formations. You can do it when static but when on the move it becomes a lot harder. It's possible, doable as the video I linked shows. BUT it's not easy and requires everyone to have the same mentality. What a good pike-on-pike fight would require, apart from numbers & not being shot up before they make contact, is to have the pikemen keep their formation, to not split apart once they've made contact. If you look at most of the melee that happens at events, it involves formations breaking apart into clumps of little duels, rather than massed combat between formations.
Is there a solution?
Damned if I know whether there is or not. I've had ideas, plenty of them, but it requires a lot from people. What we in the Lucky Dogs had intended to do was try out a skirmish between two forces, each approximately a Company strong - two sleeves/wings of shotte and a body of pike, with everyone distributed between them irregardless of clan/rank. Each block would be under the command of an 'officer' who knew what to do (commands, drills etc), with an overall commanding officer for each side. The fighting would purposefully take place at short range using simple period tactics/drills - fire by salvee, fire by introduction/extroduction - with the pikemen advancing into contact with the other pike block.
However this approach runs into problems - everyone involved needs to be trained in and to remember the commands/drills, they need to be willing to take part in such a short-range battle whilst keeping their formation, without running off to do their own thing, obeying the commands relayed to them by the officer of their block. Clans get rather upset about not being able to fight together as a group and by instinct do not wish to be broken up. It may not be of interest to people who just want perform a psuedo-1815 line battle rather than the tactics of the time period.
Regarding engineers/shovels...
...no thank'ee! Throwing up an earthen barrier in such a short time is neither realistic nor healthy for the flow of battle within the mod - afterall why advance if you can sit at the back of the battlefield creating a small fort you can hide in, instead of engaging in the spirit of 17th century fighting?
You fight with the very M&B and you did not win.
I think one of the greatest changes we could make to these events would be to limit all classes to only one bandolier, twelve lead balls. Folk will not be so eager to open up at such great distances, nor will they be so eager to wantonly waste shotte.
I was disappointed to see the Blews leave after a couple of rounds. It doesn't look particularly dashing.
I was disappointed to see the Blews leave after a couple of rounds. It doesn't look particularly dashing.
Or use blank cartridges - smoke, flames, and no bullets. Beautiful and nobody gets hurt.
The only way of enforcing a lower amount of shotte is to lower the amount of starting gold I suppose. Usually pikemen can't even spend it all, so that's no problem - musketeers should be able to afford a proper musket and one bandolier along with some better clothing and/or a cheap sword, no more than that.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the low quality bandoliers cost nothing, so simply lowering the amount of starting gold would probably not solve the salvo-shooting.
The only thing I can think of regarding pikemen/musketeers is forcing people to choose pikemen. Either by changing the amount of Musketeers allowed per team to a lower number or "forcing" clans for a one time event to change to pikemen from musketeers.
The only thing I can think of regarding pikemen/musketeers is forcing people to choose pikemen. Either by changing the amount of Musketeers allowed per team to a lower number or "forcing" clans for a one time event to change to pikemen from musketeers.
Many of the men were suffering serious bad lag and our broken formations were just being shot to all merry hell by the moles that were the 26thNC. I also had the issue of many of the men pestering me about their NW regiments so I dismissed them at 19:00. I really didn't look dashing in the slightestLeifr Eiríksson said:I was disappointed to see the Blews leave after a couple of rounds. It doesn't look particularly dashing.
I love this mod to bits I really do, the environment of this event is making it hard to love it though. The shooting from horse back also caused a great deal of distress for my men as well. I can understand holding and firing and horse archers but riding at full pace and firing is just silly.
Incognitoandahalf
Recruit
Firing from horseback was a legitimate tactic during the period and I don't see why it cant be allowed. If you have pikes the cav wont even come close and properly using your musketeers would render them useless. As far as our mole mound we were doing the only sensible measure at the time for us, during the first map we faced too many melee charges in the road and being a primarily NA group we resorted to shooting from a defensive position following all rules. While yes if you attempted a prolonged shooting barrage or attempted to charge us with a small unit we probably beat you artillery or a large coordinated attack would have been plenty effective as our friendly artillery demonstrated 
Czeremis
Sergeant at Arms
IMO it may be not enough for the skirmishers, the same for those squads which are just holding some strategic points and waiting for reinforcements. But even if it was as you say, it would be quite hard to control, especially if there are free cartridges.Leifr Eiríksson said:
That's right, but on the other hand e.g. Polish or Ottoman cavalry looks so miserably while having not enough fundsDansk viking said:
We can lower it to 2000 or even 1700, buy then we must significantly raise the amount of gold earned by killing people, so that the cavalry can upgrade effectively.
Sorry, but you shall deal with this common way of fighting for XVIIth century cavalryBravescot said:
You may say that in some versions of well known 'caracole' the riders used to stop for shooting, but in deluge times this tactic was already abandoned (by Swedish, don't know how it is about the Germans) and the reiters were firing their pistols while charging, just before melee combat.
Artillery - it is said in the rules that arty squad contains 1 officer and 3 engineers - do you find it too many? Now when 3 engineers take what is needed to use cannon, each of them is able to deploy extra grenade which is really annoying, moreover for those who are familiar with deluge cannon system 2 people are totally enough to fire efficiently (engineer for aiming and officer for watching the target in scope). I believe we shall allow arty squads to be at least two-person (or more if they want, that's their choice). Agree?
And lastly, about the sandwalls, you all think we should forbid digging them? Even if it is like now, allowed only for engineer (which is allowed to be taken only for those regiments who have >15people)?
If so, remember that it is also possible to collect wooden sticks and bulid some trenches or shields.
One may say that it takes too long to transport them on foot, then we must reconsider the wagons' issue.
Should they be allowed also for line infantry with one rule that pikemen cannon fight on it (or maybe none can fight nor shoot, just transportation?)
Tell me what you think we should do about them, because now I don't see any regiment using that beautiful Deluge invention
And ANNOUNCEMENT
Sorry for giving false hope, but this week the event is cancelled (I'm offline), we will start with a siege on the next Saturday (6.06.2015). Soon I will create a special thread for it with some different rules adjusted to this game mode.
1. Name Ivan_Brothers
2. Amount of ppl 8-15
3. Preferred factions and units muscovy and Strelets
4. Non-preferred factions and units dont mind any
5. Are you able to deploy artillery occasionally, we can take it some time
6. Leader’s contact, Steam/TS Museal
7. Banner in game. strelets with blue background banner
2. Amount of ppl 8-15
3. Preferred factions and units muscovy and Strelets
4. Non-preferred factions and units dont mind any
5. Are you able to deploy artillery occasionally, we can take it some time
6. Leader’s contact, Steam/TS Museal
7. Banner in game. strelets with blue background banner
Qifi
Recruit
1. Name - Císařská Garda -> [CG]
2. Amount of people - 10-15
3. Preferred factions and units - Muskeeters or Heavy Cavalry
4. Non-preferred factions and units - Crimean Khanate and Dragoons
5. Are you able to deploy artillery occasionally - Sure, no problem
6. Leader’s contact, Steam/TS - ht tp://steamcommunity.com/id/66HusQifi/ or ht tp://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198070125405/
7. Banner in game - Double Eagle on Yellow Field
2. Amount of people - 10-15
3. Preferred factions and units - Muskeeters or Heavy Cavalry
4. Non-preferred factions and units - Crimean Khanate and Dragoons
5. Are you able to deploy artillery occasionally - Sure, no problem
6. Leader’s contact, Steam/TS - ht tp://steamcommunity.com/id/66HusQifi/ or ht tp://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198070125405/
7. Banner in game - Double Eagle on Yellow Field
Lone Wolf Application
1. Nick = Lex
2. Confirm that you will use TS and obey your commander = Yes my master.
3. Preferred language group, Polish/English/others = English
4. Would you like to play as artillery from time to time? = Prefer not to.
1. Nick = Lex
2. Confirm that you will use TS and obey your commander = Yes my master.
3. Preferred language group, Polish/English/others = English
4. Would you like to play as artillery from time to time? = Prefer not to.
