The Dogs to lure and harry, the Wolves to take the throat. 
It was truly fantastic, all of it.
It was truly fantastic, all of it.
PREVIOUS EVENT: Battle of Sulcoit (8/12/13)
- Thread starter Celtichugs
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The pretty picture makes me understand.
jepekula
Count
The event was truly awesome, although I did try leading from the front and getting cut down to pieces way too many times. Thank you, hosts, organizers and Rackio for the event, it was truly my best Vikingr experience so far. I also wish to thank the host leaders on Viking side for understanding me while I was grasping at straws what I should say and who should do what and where and even with my English. Good thing was also that some of them were taking the initiative, at fitting times. Too bad Ragnarr forgot the "fitting times" part.
Joub, aka Ubbe af Hlymreki, aka Ubbe Vaeringja did a great job translating what I meant and what I wanted other hosts to do to clear English and helping me with who where doing what in where. Hell, he was leading the army atleast as much as I, if not even more.
Last but not least, I want to talk everyone for coming, especially the pubbers. The event was truly glorious.
I am bad with thanking, but I guess that covers it.
I really loved the conquests though, they were the most glorious part of the event, in my opinion.
Joub, aka Ubbe af Hlymreki, aka Ubbe Vaeringja did a great job translating what I meant and what I wanted other hosts to do to clear English and helping me with who where doing what in where. Hell, he was leading the army atleast as much as I, if not even more.
Last but not least, I want to talk everyone for coming, especially the pubbers. The event was truly glorious.
I am bad with thanking, but I guess that covers it.
I really loved the conquests though, they were the most glorious part of the event, in my opinion.
Hospes fori
Count
Allow me to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to all the extraordinary sedulous and generally magnificent gents who enabled and shaped this wholesale slaughter! Indeed, this craic was memorable.
Nyah
Sergeant at Arms
Celtichugs said:One of my favorite moments has to be at the start of the first round of Conquest, when my host faced off with the Haeringar. Both teams faced off each other, the battle rythm resounding. The Irish began to advance forward, then just as I was about to charge the enemy, the FenrisBarn came howling out the trees like devils and slaughtered us!
Ha! I saw that, too.
How did they(you FenrisBarns) get to hide so clever ^^ ?
I have to say this was one of the things I enjoyed most of all, the co-ordination between the Hæringar & FenrisBarn. Each time the FenrisBarn were with us we knew we could rely on them. Whether it was protecting our flank, acting as a reserve or as flankers we knew we could trust them to do their job and they performed brilliantly. Many thanks to the FenrisBarn, you guys were fantastic.Leifr Eiríksson said:The Dogs to lure and harry, the Wolves to take the throat.
Having been privy to the preparations just prior to the event I have to applaud the work & dedication of the organisers & host leaders. The organisation was fantastic, each battle was brilliant and I have to echo the words of others - the Conquest map was superb and for me was the best part of the event by far (although the Battle & Siege were great fun!). This was easily the best event I'd attended and I hope the next one (if there will be one) will be just as good if not better!
Where those trees stood on the hill at the Irish end (first round), the FenrisBarn hid themselves and repeatedly acted as sneaky flankers.Nyah said:
FrisianDude
Archduke
Some pics, especially like the second one.
Damn it, I still cant get out of my mind the picture of the first conquest game, when both armies got their positions at the begining.
The eternal silence broken by a wave of troops runing against us in a furious rush all over the front followed by the clash... sounds of both horns, shouts and weapons mixed up. (such a beautiful moment)
The eternal silence broken by a wave of troops runing against us in a furious rush all over the front followed by the clash... sounds of both horns, shouts and weapons mixed up. (such a beautiful moment
)
Éadric
Knight at Arms
Seeing as Celtichugs posted his own critical assessment, I thought I would post mine as well, as a former organiser of events.
It may be stressed that this event ran smoothly in terms of organisation. There were no delays worth mentioning or any technical difficulties. In this sense I think the event was quite a success.
As for Conquest mode, I never cared for it on account of its repetition and breaking of immersion, and I’m afraid this event did not change my mind. Indeed, mercifully the map was not very large, but I felt this was nullified by having to climb the same slopes again and again. It is especially punishing for whichever side is losing. I for one would have preferred a single great battle with a build-up of tension instead of a relatively mindless meat-grinder.
It caught my attention that the Gaels were constantly leaking players, especially during the siege. In the second round, the defenders had as much as half as many men as the attackers. I cannot fault the organisers for this, but I feel this would not have happened had the lead organiser not also been playing. And speaking from personal experience, it is quite a strain to both organise an event, handling everything behind the scenes ánd have supreme command over one of the two sides. I do think the Gaels suffered the more for it.
Most serious however was the balance issue. The ranks of the Northmen comprised way more regulars and veterans than those of the Gaels. For the Northmen had the Væringjar (relatively new but regular players), the Erlingar (veteran regulars), the Hæringar (veteran regulars), the FenrisBarn (veteran regulars for the most part), the Jómsvíkingar (veteran regulars for the most part) and the Vyatichi (veterans but not regulars), while the Gaels had the Fir Áraig (most of whom rarely play Víkingr), the Uí hUiginn (same story),Les Maisnees del Vis****e d'Iveri (didn’t show up), the Polans (relatively new and rather irregular players) and the Fyrningas (the only veteran / regularly playing House on this side). The Gaels were doomed before the battle had even begun. But I reckon that was unavoidable, as most veterans and regulars simply belong to Norse clans, and this was a battle of Northmen against Gaels, so this is more an observation than a point of criticism. It does explain in part why this event was not my favourite.
That said, I appreciate all the effort and thought that went into this and thank you once more.
It may be stressed that this event ran smoothly in terms of organisation. There were no delays worth mentioning or any technical difficulties. In this sense I think the event was quite a success.
As for Conquest mode, I never cared for it on account of its repetition and breaking of immersion, and I’m afraid this event did not change my mind. Indeed, mercifully the map was not very large, but I felt this was nullified by having to climb the same slopes again and again. It is especially punishing for whichever side is losing. I for one would have preferred a single great battle with a build-up of tension instead of a relatively mindless meat-grinder.
It caught my attention that the Gaels were constantly leaking players, especially during the siege. In the second round, the defenders had as much as half as many men as the attackers. I cannot fault the organisers for this, but I feel this would not have happened had the lead organiser not also been playing. And speaking from personal experience, it is quite a strain to both organise an event, handling everything behind the scenes ánd have supreme command over one of the two sides. I do think the Gaels suffered the more for it.
Most serious however was the balance issue. The ranks of the Northmen comprised way more regulars and veterans than those of the Gaels. For the Northmen had the Væringjar (relatively new but regular players), the Erlingar (veteran regulars), the Hæringar (veteran regulars), the FenrisBarn (veteran regulars for the most part), the Jómsvíkingar (veteran regulars for the most part) and the Vyatichi (veterans but not regulars), while the Gaels had the Fir Áraig (most of whom rarely play Víkingr), the Uí hUiginn (same story),
That said, I appreciate all the effort and thought that went into this and thank you once more.
Éadríc said:
But yeah, I agree with Éadric.
Also bring to the point that the Nords had one massive Clan compared to small Gaelic hosts which meant they were way more organised and flexible. Perhaps next time if the Jomsborg could be split into two hosts and if need be on opposite teams and also being in separate channels.
FrisianDude
Archduke
Not sure about your point on the Jomsborg. At least, I got the idea that the veteran regular Joms-core was there, but the less regular veterans weren't, resulting in a large part of the Jomsborg being the relatively freshly recruited fellows. Somewhat regular for the most part, but rarely veteran (unless I'm not keeping up with namechanges.)Hugh Higgins said:
Celtichugs
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Éadríc said:
Unfortunately, the slopes were steeper than I had anticipated. Though, that is by far and a way due to my lack of conversational skill when talking to Helies. From the off set I wanted to completely avoid battle, being that's almost always used for larger Víkingr events and is used for the SWE, so I had written it off from the start. As I said earlier, I wanted to show that conquest can be used and used well.
Éadríc said:
I would agree with the highlighted part, had I actually had to do any organizing during the event. Everything was organised, set and ready well in advance and Hrotha and Thorkell knew what to do and when. So really, I didn't do any organizing during the event itself, which was great!
It was just my very lack luster commanding! As for leaking players, it's inevitable the losing side will always lose players. But, I agree it was a little much and little annoying. It's almost impossible, too, to rebalance these larger events once the event is in swing, especially when it's not battle where there is a new round every 5 minutes or less. So, to be honest, during the event there wasn't much to be done, I also stubbornly avoided any waiting around for players.Also, we actually didn't intend to do the second round of siege, and that was really just for fun. As the Viking leaders had asked for another.
Éadríc said:
This actually reminds me that I hadn't talked about balance in my debrief! Balance was an issue from almost the start of the sign ups. Myself and Hrotha knew this and expected it. We also, from the very beginning knew that balancing of numbers is another issue, along with balance of skill and experience. However, due to the really rather huge difference in numbers in each host, balancing was an issue, and at the end we settled for balancing numbers first before skill and experience. Looking back I still see no alternative to the changes we made. It's a shame, but as you say this was a battle of Northmen against Gaels and clans will favor their preferred faction we tried to make sure each clan was with the faction they preferred.
Éadríc said:
This is also an issue, as is the fact the William nor the d'Iveri clan didn't even show, or even tell us they couldn't make it or even apologize since. Despite said person being online. To be quite frank, I am angered and insulted. That kind of behavior is rude, frustrating and damaging for an event that is on such a large scale. An event, and mod, where balance matters.
Hugh Higgins said:
Well, as Eadric pointed out the Polans were our large clan. But unfortunately half of then didn't turn up. Yourself had arrived with less than you had signed up I believe, the d'Iveri didn't even turn up, and about 10 or so of my guys didn't show either. So, while numbers were even at the start of event, as you say their units were larger and more organised. But, what was needed to counter that was leading and commanding, of which mine was far from brilliant!
Yup, I knew alright: cower in a corner and let Þorkell do all the admin stuff!
I apologize again, but having to deal with the server when 160 people depend on me not screwing up is too much for me.
To be honest, the balance didn't look that off to me on paper beforehand, but the few Polanin numbers to counter the Jómsvíkingar did hurt us, and in hindsight it's true that most veteran clans were fighting for Limerick. I think something we haven't dared to do yet is to just allow the weaker side, skill-wise, to outnumber the other side. And it's weird, because it's something that Celt himself suggested when we were analyzing what worked and what didn't at Brunanburh, and yet neither of us thought of that and focused only on balancing the numbers (which I think only really became a real problem during the extra siege round). But as I said, the skill balance didn't strike us as that off on paper. Whoever organizes the next event might need to set up an independent committee to assess the skill level of every clan as objectively as possible.
Also, one thing that I think hurt the Goídil both at Sulcoit and at Brunanburh is that they were employed like every other faction, and perhaps they're not suited for that. I believe they can do very well in large pitched battles, but they'd probably require a lot of micromanagement by the overall commander and tactical awareness by the host leaders. For example, I saw very few birín in the air - something that was already noticed at Brunanburh. And there was often not enough time to throw our birín, because our allies were already engaged so we needed to commit ourselves immediately to support them. I don't know, maybe saying that the Goídil require complicated battle plans and tactically astute commanding officers with good initiative to be competitive is the same as simply saying they're not good at pitched battles, because every other faction would also benefit from that kind of stuff, but I think Gaelic military theory is still in its infancy.
Hugh Higgins said:
How about...
hrotha said:
Hrotha has the idea of it without managing to sound like a case of sour grapes. The numbers were pretty well balanced throughout the event until, as mentioned, siege turned up. The first round was won by Goídil (despite being ten men short, or thereabouts), and hard-fought at that. The second round saw the gap increase between player numbers but, as discussed via whisper, the event was already declared to have been over by then. Faction balance looked OK on paper; the only host that had the potential to cause trouble would be the exceptionally large and unwieldly Jómsvíkingr. There were four FenrisBarn by my count, fourteen Hæringar (we were just under half our original tally) and maybe another four Erlinga. I am not sure if it is really possible to 'objectively assess' the skill level of each clan; most of the Hæringar 'go home' between events and then again largely depends on how much alcohol has been consumed before and during the battle (with so many Finns, Swedes and Danes it's inevitable!) Every body of players suffer good days and bad days alike with regards to performance, it just so happens that we bring our A game for every event. It would always be better to balance for numbers and a very rough spread of 'skill' (sounds like Native, huh?) rather than objectively assessing and distributing in an artificial manner. **** just can't be done like that. How would you propose such a thing is to be done Hrotha?
Goídil seem to suffer once battle has been joined, both Sulcoit and Brunanburh have demonstrated this. However, there is always a dismaying lack of birins being thrown on our part. What are we supposed to do with these large shields our host bought if there is naught to shield our eyes from but the sun? There is this big 'switch-off' when they're played in events; we know how best to execute them on Hildeleikr, skirmish, throw, skirmish, throw, spear, throw, stab. You cannot attribute more fault to the event when the Goídil are being played incorrectly and without sufficient birin-spam from the onset. If you find time lacking and allies already engaged, one must ask the host leaders of your side what monkey games are being played - was any one really listening and paying attention? Maybe you're just not used to a TeamSpeak environment, it can get busy with all the super-duper tactics, formations and commands being thrown around.
tl;dr
Play the Goídil properly.
Learn how to use TeamSpeak properly.
Avoid superficial balancing of hosts based on some arbitrary determination of skill.
There's no sour grapes here, Eiríkr. We're trying to provide constructive criticism for the event, which is something I feel should ALWAYS be done. Not everything can be perfect, and unless we take an honest look at what could have gone better, we won't learn for next time. And if Celt hadn't observed and learned from the mistakes made by the organizers that came before him, the event would have run a lot less smoothly. Criticism for specific points doesn't invalidate or attempt to invalidate the very positive feedback the event has already got, and Celt seems to understand that and to be perfectly cool with taking a deeper look to see what could have been done better, so why shouldn't we?
I was kidding about how objective an assessment of the clans' skills can be made, obviously (hence the committee joke), but the underlying point stands, I think. Yes, Hæringar, Erlingar and Fenrisbarn weren't massive hordes, but neither were Fyrningas or Fir Áraig. What I was proposing is not some sort of scientific evaluation of clan skill, just... making better, more realistic estimations, really. We see names like Fir Áraig and Iveri and we think "old clans = veterans = highly skilled", and maybe we tend to forget that the core of regular Víkingr players in the Fir Áraig is small and that the Maisnees d'Iveri, even if they had showed up, only have 2 regular players.
While I do think the Goídil didn't play to their strengths here or at Brunanburh, when balancing the teams perhaps we shouldn't just assume that they will, because it's harder for the Goídil than for the Norðmenn to play to their strengths, and they had only had one event to work things out beforehand and see what worked and what didn't. These events are not something that happen often, and it might take several events until people got the Goídil figured out, so we might be looking at, what, a year of one side being trashed until they learn? I don't think that's viable. I think it would be better to handicap their enemies a little to adjust things, so that the events are more balanced and ultimately enjoyable for both sides while people figure out what's the best way to play Goídil in big pitched battles.
None of this is about blaming the Gaelic defeat on the organizer out of sour grapes - after all, I had a hand in the balance myself, so me and Eadric would effectively be *****ing at me too.
I was kidding about how objective an assessment of the clans' skills can be made, obviously (hence the committee joke), but the underlying point stands, I think. Yes, Hæringar, Erlingar and Fenrisbarn weren't massive hordes, but neither were Fyrningas or Fir Áraig. What I was proposing is not some sort of scientific evaluation of clan skill, just... making better, more realistic estimations, really. We see names like Fir Áraig and Iveri and we think "old clans = veterans = highly skilled", and maybe we tend to forget that the core of regular Víkingr players in the Fir Áraig is small and that the Maisnees d'Iveri, even if they had showed up, only have 2 regular players.
While I do think the Goídil didn't play to their strengths here or at Brunanburh, when balancing the teams perhaps we shouldn't just assume that they will, because it's harder for the Goídil than for the Norðmenn to play to their strengths, and they had only had one event to work things out beforehand and see what worked and what didn't. These events are not something that happen often, and it might take several events until people got the Goídil figured out, so we might be looking at, what, a year of one side being trashed until they learn? I don't think that's viable. I think it would be better to handicap their enemies a little to adjust things, so that the events are more balanced and ultimately enjoyable for both sides while people figure out what's the best way to play Goídil in big pitched battles.
None of this is about blaming the Gaelic defeat on the organizer out of sour grapes - after all, I had a hand in the balance myself, so me and Eadric would effectively be *****ing at me too.
Celtichugs
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Myself and Thorkell had a brief chat last night and he brought to my attention that "no one has mentioned the faction imbalances and the questionable suitability of the Goídil in major events". That was the case untill now. However, the discussion you guys are having is "Was the Goídil used to their strength?*" The answer is, ofcourse, no. The fault lays at me, ofcourse. But I want to bring back the question that was asked at the Goídil introduction into Víkingr and their first event. "Are the Goídil imbalanced?". The answer is yes.
This question was at the heart of mine and a certain developers "discussions". And, despite what people think, we both agreed they were hugely underpowered and imbalanced. Taking the specific tactics used to really utilize them aside - which I feel is a difficult conversation and the tactic itself is even more difficult to implement in an event - myself and one other member of Fir Áraig pointed out that the Goídil for months were unfairly implemented. We noticed that everything costed alot more than other factions, we noticed their stats (in terms of armour, weapon damage and reach) were ridiculously underrepresented. The Goídil armour was too weak, too expensive and ergo too difficult to get, despite us pointing out that by this time Irish natives could have easily, and affordably acquired Norse equipment. It was also the case that the Gall-Goídel class was in rather short supply and it's % on the server needed to be increased (which is something I hadn't thought about doing for the event *derp*). Myself and the developer, even, both agreed that the "birin advantage" wasn't enough. We had also noticed that the Goídil lost alot more during "normal play" on the official server - though, there was a peak where Goídil seemed to rarely lose.
I understand what I have said has completely removed the Sulcoit event itself, but I feel that needs to happen if we're to bring the focus onto the Goídil faction itself rather than criticizing the event or the organization of the event. But, to bring it back to Thorkell's point: the Goídil are hugely underbalanced and have never been suitable for major events, but if I'm honest, I don't actually care as I enjoy playing them despite getting my ass kicked. What's the alternative, anyway? We just don't use them for events? We cannot do that and we cannot wait for them to be improved as we don't have a development team. Though, I add that I believe myself and this other Fir Áraig member still have our documents for improvements to the faction.
* - note that it's strength, singular. The Goídil only have one, and even then I wouldn't even call it a strength.
This question was at the heart of mine and a certain developers "discussions". And, despite what people think, we both agreed they were hugely underpowered and imbalanced. Taking the specific tactics used to really utilize them aside - which I feel is a difficult conversation and the tactic itself is even more difficult to implement in an event - myself and one other member of Fir Áraig pointed out that the Goídil for months were unfairly implemented. We noticed that everything costed alot more than other factions, we noticed their stats (in terms of armour, weapon damage and reach) were ridiculously underrepresented. The Goídil armour was too weak, too expensive and ergo too difficult to get, despite us pointing out that by this time Irish natives could have easily, and affordably acquired Norse equipment. It was also the case that the Gall-Goídel class was in rather short supply and it's % on the server needed to be increased (which is something I hadn't thought about doing for the event *derp*). Myself and the developer, even, both agreed that the "birin advantage" wasn't enough. We had also noticed that the Goídil lost alot more during "normal play" on the official server - though, there was a peak where Goídil seemed to rarely lose.
I understand what I have said has completely removed the Sulcoit event itself, but I feel that needs to happen if we're to bring the focus onto the Goídil faction itself rather than criticizing the event or the organization of the event. But, to bring it back to Thorkell's point: the Goídil are hugely underbalanced and have never been suitable for major events, but if I'm honest, I don't actually care as I enjoy playing them despite getting my ass kicked
. What's the alternative, anyway? We just don't use them for events? We cannot do that and we cannot wait for them to be improved as we don't have a development team. Though, I add that I believe myself and this other Fir Áraig member still have our documents for improvements to the faction.* - note that it's strength, singular. The Goídil only have one, and even then I wouldn't even call it a strength.
Aye, I think the Goídil are too cool to just sideline them like that. But making sure they have a numerical advantage in future events might even things out satisfactorily. That could be a good practical lesson to draw from Sulcoit for any future events that feature the Goídil.
I do believe the latest fix made the Goídil more balanced, as it brought their amour more in line with that of the other factions and it gave the ceithernaig some swords to spend their money on (not to mention the boost to their secret weapon, the MAGLORG!). But ultimately I think their main disadvantage is the difficulty of making good and carefully aimed birín throws in large events compared to casual play.
I do believe the latest fix made the Goídil more balanced, as it brought their amour more in line with that of the other factions and it gave the ceithernaig some swords to spend their money on (not to mention the boost to their secret weapon, the MAGLORG!). But ultimately I think their main disadvantage is the difficulty of making good and carefully aimed birín throws in large events compared to casual play.
