[NC2012] - Questions and Answers

[Mr.X]

Oh, Mr.X seems uncomfortable with the new maps, which everyone else had lots of time to play on, while he didn't. I guess he's here to do some nitpicking then.

Agreed.
Except for Ruined Fort. Cause that one's pretty balanced. Everyone just hates it.

 

I've had more than enough time. There's not really much to get really. Just know where the fences randomly jutt out of the randomly placed buildings and then randomly stop. And ruined fort is pretty damn balanced.

 

[Orion]

Oh, Mr.X seems uncomfortable with the new maps, which everyone else had lots of time to play on, while he didn't. I guess he's here to do some nitpicking then.

What's with the confrontational bull**** all of a sudden, Goker? Keep that in check.

Most of the new maps aren't any more balanced than the native maps. Vendetta plays much like Village, Snowy Battle has very lop-sided MotF flag spawns, and Reveran village has much better archer positions at one spawn than the other. Sandi'boush is the only map that's fairly balanced, but it's practically a circle around a courtyard.

 

[Goker]

Oh come on, we've seen this all before. The maps are new for some, so they start posting pictures of some fences and saying they are bad. Rest of the people got bored of native maps and these maps, which are "new" for some, do provide conditions for competitive play. You are gonna change spawn points, wouldn't worry too much about one spawn point having more positions for archers.

 

[Mr.X]

Oh come on, we've seen this all before. The maps are new for some, so they start posting pictures of some fences and saying they are bad. Rest of the people got bored of native maps and these maps, which are "new" for some, do provide conditions for competitive play. You are gonna change spawn points, wouldn't worry too much about one spawn point having more positions for archers.

Umm, I've been playing on these maps ever since the Nations Cup got announced. And like I said, it's not like they're gigantic. You can learn pretty much everything about them in a week if you really wanted to. It's not cause they're new. It's cause they aren't really competitively built. And who gives a **** if you switch spawns. 5-0 one team, 5-0 the other team. Maps balanced, or unbalanced? Sounds more like unbalanced to me.

The pictures of the fence were to satisfy my inner troll humor. Because I find the fence hilarious. It sorta makes no sense and kinda goes out at a weird angle to the middle of nowhere, with no real purpose gameplay wise or aesthetically. If you'd like I could post pictures of some problems I find with other maps. The fence isn't really a problem, it's just sorta weird looking, which is why I took the pictures. I really don't care if a map is super-weird looking. It's the whole unbalanced bs spawns haphazard layout kinda stuff that gets annoying. I don't understand how you can honestly say that Vendetta is competitively balanced. It's a ******** seige. (I'm thinking of the one in the snow with the castles, might've got the name wrong). So is Village. So is Port Assault. I'm not constraining this to new maps. The maps made by TW were not really designed to be competitive maps. Multiplayer isn't/wasn't all about competition. We always seem to forget that people still play tdm, and dm, and other stuff, and enjoy a realisticish map that has some cool features. That doesn't mean the map is suitable for high level competition. ****, Arena's the only map that actually might have competition in it's design idea. Village isn't supposed to be fair. It's supposed  to be fun. And I love playing on it, and jumping on roofs and ****. But it's not suited for competition where both teams should have an equal opportunity. And that doesn't mean switching spawns, it means finding/making maps that are balanced and that make sense.



EDIT: In response to this:

To limit the movement  of cavalry a little and make fighting in the streets more viable.

Nobody is claiming the ENL maps are perfect, but neither are the normal native maps. In fact I'd go so far as to say that in general the ENL maps are better for competitive play than the ones that come in the box.

Cavalry movement is limited by barely the width of one person, and only on one side? Honestly, the fence does not do much for that. I don't expect maps to be perfect, I expect them to be made with competition in mind. I'd go so far as to agree that in general ENL maps are better for competitive play then Native. But I don't think either really has a good selection of maps that can honestly be competitive. Yea, spawns should change the way a map is played, but it shouldn't severely limit options or provide extraneous advantages. Nor should random fences be in the middle of maps :p

 

[Rhade]

Oh come on, we've seen this all before. The maps are new for some, so they start posting pictures of some fences and saying they are bad. Rest of the people got bored of native maps and these maps, which are "new" for some, do provide conditions for competitive play. You are gonna change spawn points, wouldn't worry too much about one spawn point having more positions for archers.

What team are you on, Goker?

 

[Goker]

I'm sorry, I can't agree with you there. I've had more 3-2's on those maps than 5-0's.  Certainly haven't seen a spawn that has a huge advantage, which would give 5-0 every time. And yes, with your logic, the only map that would be balanced would be one where both spawns are identical.

What team are you on, Goker?

Turkey.

 

[Mr.X]

So you honestly think Vendetta (the snow castle thing) is balanced and suited for competitive play?

 

[Goker]

I think, with the right tactics, both spawn points can get you rounds. And it has actually. Seen it being done and have done it myself on various occasions.

 

[Mr.X]

I think, with the right tactics, both spawn points can get you rounds. And it has actually. Seen it being done and have done it myself on various occasions.

And am I allowed to argue the stupidity of opponents? I'm sure people have won round from both spawns. I think even europeans might realize a map where one team spawns in a giant hole and the other team spawns all around the top is unbalanced. But I think this is a tad more subtle than one spawn being absolutely impregnable always forever. It's the idea that the inside spawn can be so easily and obviously abused in a way that the outside spawn cannot. A balanced battle map should not have attackers and defenders preset.

 

[Goker]

I think, with the right tactics, both spawn points can get you rounds. And it has actually. Seen it being done and have done it myself on various occasions.

And am I allowed to argue the stupidity of opponents?

You'd be insulting many clans.

I'm sure people have won round from both spawns. I think even europeans might realize a map where one team spawns in a giant hole and the other team spawns all around the top is unbalanced. But I think this is a tad more subtle than one spawn being absolutely impregnable always forever. It's the idea that the inside spawn can be so easily and obviously abused in a way that the outside spawn cannot. A balanced battle map should not have attackers and defenders preset.

It's not impregnable. There are many entrances. Too many for the defenders to defend. As I said, use good tactics, teamwork and timing. There is absolutely no way for them to defend if you break in from one entrance.

You just need to divide your players into 2-3 groups, sneak a shot here and there.

I do agree that the inside spawn is easier. You just need to react enemy movement and face them when inside.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

This all seems silly, so it should probably end . The maps are what they are, we work with what we have. Everyone can see that maps aren't perfectly balanced which is why there is a swap of sides. The maps for NC have already been decided so no need for us to bicker about them, it just creates unnecessary tension.

Meanwhile if someone has a complaint with the maps I do believe there is a map editor, and many people have already made good maps that aren't known to the public. So get cracking on finding those maps or making some of your own design.

 

[arsenic_vengeur]

Reveran Village is balanced and fun, Vendetta is not.

 

[Gulatr]

Mr. X - If you wanted to discuss the maps, propose changes to them, removal or addition of some of them, you should have opened a new thread for that. This is a Q&A thread meant for simple clarification of rules and such, not prolonged discussions. Just open a new thread to discuss the matter in detail.

I actually have quite a few comments about the new maps, but I will not post those here, as this is not the appropriate place.

As I already mentioned in my proposition thread - being sarcastic, and in your case even abusive and offensive, does not contribute to the validity of your own arguments. Perhaps try a constructive approach that respects other peoples views and opinions?

...I think even Europeans might realize a map where one team spawns in a giant hole and the other team spawns all around the top is unbalanced...

This quote says it all about your attitude. Think about it.

 

[Rhade]

In the face of non sequitur and off topic questions:

Is there a chance Captain Lust would be willing to help run this show? Not to say I don't have every faith in Alex, I just really like how well and efficiently Lust has done it in the past.

 

[Alex_C]

lust's lawyers informed me that I'm not allowed to work with him on any projects after the incident.

I completely agree with the above points and any maps featuring a fence have been removed from the tournament.

 

[Goker]

any maps featuring a fence have been removed from the tournament.

****. Like what you did, X? |:

 

[arsenic_vengeur]

Rule Modified 24/02:

• Before the knockout stage, teams will be split into groups of four - with some groups possibly being sized five or three due to odd numbers - and each team will play each other team in its group. The top team from each group will continue to the knock-out stage. Draws are decided by play-off matches.
• If the numbers do not match up to those required for a knockout tournament, the top-achieving second places from each group will be allowed through, depending on how many are needed for the numbers to match up.

I quote it here because I guess the rule thread has to be kept clear.

I just want to say that I dislike this way of doing selections, and it would be fine if the community reacts to this rule and give its opinion before it starts.

Indeed we have 18 teams (unless some new teams appeared in the last couple days), and making groups of 4 means this :
Group A : 5 teams - 4 eliminated / 1 qualified
Group B : 5 teams - 4 eliminated / 1 qualified
Group C : 4 teams - 3 eliminated / 1 qualified
Group D : 4 teams - 3 eliminated / 1 qualified

This means :
- only 3/4 matches for 78% of teams
- 22% of teams go to knockout stages, but knockout stage will only be semifinals.
- being in a group of 5 teams is unfair (more chances to have several scary teams in your group).

I think we should just copy/paste what was done last year cause it perfectly fits with the number of 18 teams we have.

We could do 3 groups of 6. In each group 4 would qualify, which leaves chance to any team, and everybody is sure to play 5 matches. So we have 12 teams that could be put in another group stage (4 groups of 3, best way to go from a mutiple of 3 (1 to a mutiple of 2 required for knock-out).

Then we can go with 8 teams towards knock-out stages. Every time will have had its fun.

Maybe if you dislike what was done last year (some people might think it took too long), then just remove second group stages, but please make first phase chunky enough.

GUYS PLEASE HELP ME ON THAT COMPLAINT FOR THE SAKE OF THE GAME. TIME FOR OUR BEST WHINERS TO SHOW THEIR VIRTUE.

 

[sammac]

Fences are a hazard... and since there are no livestock in warband there is no reason to have them.

 

[captain lust]

Yeah I really don't like the "1 team qualifies" thing. I think a minimum of half the teams should proceed beyond the group stage or every team that loses their first match will just lose interest.

 

[Rhade]

I agree with Arsenic and Lust. 1 advancing is very steep.