Enhancing the English faction

[Éadric]

To improve my beloved English faction, I would suggest the following:



FYRDMAN

The average fyrdman in the time that this game is set was not some poor peasant. They were actually quite well equipped. To quote the well-known re-enactment society Regia Anglorum:

By the second half of the tenth century, and throughout the eleventh, the Anglo-Saxon fyrd was more than just a king's host arrayed for war, it was a well equipped professional army of heavy infantry. Although the spear and shield still remained the basic weapon of the fyrdman, it was now usual for all to have a horse, sword, helmet and mailshirt too. Some illustrations suggest that hand-axes were also used, but whether in addition to, or in place of, the sword is unclear. There are many references to even ceorls serving in the fyrd possessing swords, and that mailshirts and helms would have been widespread is shown by the fact that Æþelred commanded that every eight hides provide a helmet and byrnie. In addition, the heriot, that is the death duty paid to a lord when a thegn died, was set at four horses (two with saddles), two swords and a coat of mail. Since the heriot represented the return of the gifts of a lord to his retainer, we can see that this was the equipment a thegn would be expected to possess. That the thegns did possess this equipment is borne out by the fact that, although it was possible to commute this payment to cash, the payment was almost always made in the form of these arms. The reason for the large number of horses may be explained by the fact that it represented a mount and remount or pack-horse for the thegn and a retainer who would look after the thegn's horse while he was in battle, or carry messages for him, etc..

With that in mind the fyrdman should have to pay less for armour than is currently the case.



HÚSCARL

At present, the default equipment of the húscarl is ridiculously poor. He's basically outfitted as an average fyrdman of the time. Let's compare how it is with how it should be from the moment one starts playing as a húscarl.

Default as it is now:

• tunic with leather vest (free)
• basic Saxon sword (550)
• light fine kite shield (free)
• javelin (300)

This setup presently costs 850 for the húscarl.

In-game picture:

Spoiler

Default as it should be:

• nasal helmet with coif (390)
• mail haubergeon (2000)
• basic Saxon sword (550)
• heavy fine kite shield (220)
• throwing spear (450)

This setup presently costs a whopping 3610 for the húscarl.

In-game picture:

Spoiler

Reference picture:

Spoiler

EORL

With the above in mind, the eorl should basically be an even fancier version of the húscarl-as-he-should-be: a better sword, the same type of mail (but with better stats) and perhaps a better shield. The default coat of mail of the eorl right now is weirdly short and has long sleeves (i.e. jacket-like). I've never seen any (visual or textual) description of a coat of mail of this type for this historical period. An eorl should spawn with the best mail available to the English, just like the conte spawns with the best mail available to the Normans. If needed, one could differentiate the eorl from the húscarl by giving the latter a slightly shorter coat of mail with a longer tunic beneath it. To keep it English, we could call the yet-to-be-modelled shorter coat of mail a byrne (the most common Old English word for 'coat of mail') and the longer coat of mail a langbyrne (a word I just made up). See page 31 of this handbook to see the two different types/lengths of coats of mail.

Also, the eorl should have kite shields available to him.



OTHER FACTIONS

If the Engle prove to be too powerful with these improvements, here are some suggestions to improve the other factions:

• Normanz: give chevalers a coat of mail by default (which seems logical either way).
• Víkingar: give hirðmenn better stats (e.g. lower prices for padding/mail, reflecting their nature as thieves).
• Goídil: have birín do more damage.
• Rus: give the knyaz back his bow and arrows.

Updated: added a link to a handbook in the paragraph on the eorl.

Updated: added comments on the fyrdman.

Updated: added comments on the other factions.

 

[Harkon Haakonson]

Are you serious about the Huscarls, Éadríc? :/

For obvious balance purposes, you DON'T give FREE 40+ armor value clothing to a multiplayer class, it's really, really powerful. It's okay for the leader classes because it's just one guy, but having like 3 guys running around with such powerful armor in the first round is ridiculous.
In fact, Huscarls just starting with their leather armor is rather awesome. You can survive easier than all other infantry in the beggining, and get mail faster than them, most of the time.

About the Earl, starting with the first tier mail armor is already GREAT, for reasons very similiar to the ones I just mentioned. It would just be insane to start with the top armor...

I understand your good intentions, but not everything can be super accurate for the sake of gameplay.



EDIT : Of course, maybe something could be arranged, like giving the Huscarl initial free armor a mail armor (skin and texture), but with stats very similiar to padded vests and such. That way they look more accurate, but aren't overpowered! Win?

 

[Phalanx300]

It would be nice if we go with each class only being able to choose certain armors. I'm all for it. (Ofcourse this should apply to all factions)

Harkon, why dismiss it when it hasn't even been tested?!

 

[b00227783]

Harkon you dismiss the Eorl starting with top tier armour because it would ruin the balance when the Norman count has such a thing.

However, if this is implemented, we really need to look drastically at the other factions and make sure they too get something similar.

 

[hrotha]

I tend to agree these huscarls would be overpowered, but the current ones sure could use a boost. Is it possible to alter the price of an item for a single class so that it's cheaper than for other classes while still not being free? That way you could make byrnies cheaper for the huscarls, so that any huscarl that does semidecently could afford maille after a few rounds. The Vikings would probably need a proper professional infantry class, too.

About the "langbyrne": personally I'd rather use "long byrne", because "langbyrne" gives the impression of being an attested term.

 

[Mupf aka Miwiw]

If we enhance the Huscarl class like Eadric would like to, what I would really appreciate, I would delete the mail armor items of the Fyrdman at the same time. Then both are historical accurate, because we all know that Fyrdmen never had any mail on their own (unless they were equipped by their Ealdormen (and really? who would do that )) and only leather armor at best. Also no swords! Spears and axes are good! Huscarls in difference, should have good weapon and armor. They are the well equipped soldiers of the the Engle, and to be honest, they are soldiers in difference to the Fyrdmen who were just peasants. So I see there are good points. However raising the needed gold from 860 to over than 3000 is a lot.
If thinking about doing this, the other factions have to be balanced as well. That means, the Rus, the Vikingr and Normanz (not speaking about Gaels now...) need to have two different kinds of infantry as well, light and heavy to balance this off. Sure, the Vikingr for example were nearly always quite well equipped... Why should a Vikingr who raids other factions go there with a tunic? Wouldn't make much sense imo. Not all had swords though, so I guess a similar equipped kind of troop like the Fyrdman would make sense. Same with Rus and Normanz. Not everyone had the best armor, even while being part of an army. ;P

But its surely not possible, to make the engle classes stronger and leave the other faction classes like they are now. Everything would have to change then.

(did only read Eadric's post for now)

 

[Harkon Haakonson]

Harkon, why dismiss it when it hasn't even been tested?!

It's tested every day when I play a leader class and can manage to play much sloppier than with normal infantry because it takes 3 hits to kill me instead of 1... It's a clear advantage. If I don't play sloppy, and other decent players as well, leaders tend to get stupidly high scores. It's quite a pain in the ass to fight that kind of armor when you don't have it yourself as you can't afford to make mistakes. To an extent, such high armor detracts from the necessary skill level to win a fight. However it's just 1 player as I said. Having 3-4 with similiar gear at the beggining of a set of rounds can become rather frustrating, and creates unbalance. Mail should be earned with skill through killing / hitting enemies, not simply be given.

@ Mabons

Fair enough, forgot about how the count, but to be honest I already feel Normans are pretty powerful. Count is definitely quite the tank.

Also, Huscarls are far from lackluster, they have good swords and like I said, start with good armor.

 

[Éadric]

EDIT : Of course, maybe something could be arranged, like giving the Huscarl initial free armor a mail armor (skin and texture), but with stats very similiar to padded vests and such. That way they look more accurate, but aren't overpowered! Win?

Yes, I also suggested we could give them the same (model of) long coat of mail but with lesser stats.

But my preference is this. We replace the best coat of mail that is currently available to the English with two variants: a slightly longer one that is default for the eorl and a slightly shorter one that is default for the húscarl. Naturally the former is stronger and heavier than the latter. And the húscarl can of course buy the longer coat of mail. Again, see page 31 of this handbook. Notice how the shorter coat of mail still has a longer tunic beneath it.

 

[Ogaburan]

Of course, maybe something could be arranged, like giving the Huscarl initial free armor a mail armor (skin and texture), but with stats very similiar to padded vests and such. That way they look more accurate, but aren't overpowered! Win?

This sounds like a very good idea.

 

[hrotha]

Audareiks your handbook uses questionable Old English 

 

[Éadric]

I tend to agree these huscarls would be overpowered, but the current ones sure could use a boost. Is it possible to alter the price of an item for a single class so that it's cheaper than for other classes while still not being free? That way you could make byrnies cheaper for the huscarls, so that any huscarl that does semidecently could afford maille after a few rounds. The Vikings would probably need a proper professional infantry class, too.

About the "langbyrne": personally I'd rather use "long byrne", because "langbyrne" gives the impression of being an attested term.

I think I'd rather risk that than use a hodgepodge of Modern and Old English.

Audareiks your handbook uses questionable Old English 

Aye, it was obviously not written by a linguist or philologist.

 

[Celtichugs]

These improvements would would complete the Engle!

 

[Éadric]

Take heed: I have updated my opening post and will continue updating.

 

[Hengwulf]

I look forward to it!

 

[Takeda_Shingen]

This seems a good idea. perhaps I should change ur name to Eadric the Clever instead of Eadric the Handsome! 

 

[FrisianDude]

I don't at all like the idea of using one item with two different stats, that'd just feel a bit off. Even more so for a coat of mail with the stats of padded armour.

 

[Harkon Haakonson]

Any other way won't really work, if we are to have a more decent looking huscarl.

Because I'll be honest, I've also always felt like the Huscarl class seemed a bit weird-looking as far as armor is concerned, because a Huscarl would never look that poorly armored. On a gameplay balance perspective, its initial armor value (leather vest) is absolutely fine and marks the Huscarl a tier above any other normal infantry while not making him over the top at even a starting round, only punished by not having the versatility of selecting axes to use.

He could have a very slightly buffed on armor points mail vest (3 points).

 

[STARik]

If you start this silly business with huscarls and historical looks that match illustrations, then rus boyars didnt have same poor tunics as orfinary infantry, they were nobles. There are many things that has been nerfed in order to preserve balance if everything was to be done historically accurate some factions would be too OP.

Consider leather armored huscarl a yong warrior to be battletested and proven his worthy of wearing proper chainmail armor - with current game mechanics its earning money in a battle.

btw from that reference picture it looks more like a norman (yes, despite the text claiming hes a saxon) - just look at his boots - hes a horse rider with spurs plus that throwing spear and shield. Or hes a very norman looking huscarl - horse rider. Soo should we give huscarls horses too?

Spoiler

 

[Dragomir]

Same goes for Normans, none chevaler would show up on a battlefield in linen tunic only. If we power up the elite class for Engle, we should do the same for all factions.

 

[Harkon Haakonson]

Yeah, so in other words, let's not.

Power creep is never good for any game, weapons and classes are already powerful enough anyways.