WARBAND - Questions About Tactics, Strategy and Overall Gameplay

[caligula123]

is it possible to get every noldor item from traders in towns ?
and also the veccavian?

 

[noosers]

is there a cap to how many troops a vassal can carry?
I keep giving a vassal a ton of troops to about 800, and next time I see him a few days later, he is down to 597 (every time). Seems they just go into the nether, happened 4-5 times now.

Not a cap per se in terms of how many troops a lord may or may not carry around. You can give him as many as you want. However, if he´s unable to pay them due to eg. not having a fief or just a very poor one, he´ll gradually lose men to desertion till he breaks even. There´s usually some big deserter parties spawning around those huge lord parties. He could of course have joined a battle as well. But desertion seems to happen in WBoP. At least as far as I understood a recent discussion about lords and their money purses.

@Yggdrasil:
In open field battles, simply overrun their infantry clusters with heavy cavalry. Their most fearsome unit in field battles are the Empire Guardian Knights. They´re a pain in the ass. For attacking huge garrisons on your own, there´s usually not much that you can do but play the war of attrition card - either by forcing a standard sallyout caused by inferior party size or by arrow assault. Take care to bring enough shielded infantry to keep the casualities low and not force an AA Sally.
Potshotting anything with a Siege Crossbow is helpful as well.

@Caligula:
Noldor: No. Only a few items of Noldor are available at standard town merchants and most of them are very rare.
Veccavia: Yes. If you check enough merchants you´ll finally get what you aspire

 

[Yggdrasill]

Thank you for your replies about my question. It seems like I will just have to invest a lot into my Rav. Rangers.

 

[Malanthor]

Is TweakMB the safe way to make minor changes for yourself with this mod or would you recomend some other program?
Specifically i was thinking abouth changing some units equipment/stats/name to fit my roleplaying whims back and forth between my games.
Do this sound like something that could mess something up? And please dont say YES jus because you feel like it.

 

[mp84]

Is TweakMB the safe way to make minor changes for yourself with this mod or would you recomend some other program?
Specifically i was thinking abouth changing some units equipment/stats/name to fit my roleplaying whims back and forth between my games.
Do this sound like something that could mess something up? And please dont say YES jus because you feel like it.

Actually, we do not recommend to use any mods outside of what we provide for PoP. Reason being is there were extensive coding changes done to make PoP works with WB, that most other mods when combined with PoP will simply not work and cause a huge assortment of crashes and that even applies to Tweak MB.

There are some unofficial projects around this forum, just do a search for it (like for Tweak MB and Polished Landscapes for PoP), and you can check those out and try it at your own risk, but make sure to back up your files.

 

[Malanthor]

Okay, thaks Mp.

 

[Dokyu]

On my first game of WB Pop ... has the guy selling the elixer for
an egg gone as I have hit every town and only seem to find the
other guy with the map. The potion was a handy way for me
to concentrate my choices between int and cha only.

 

[Malanthor]

the potion gves cha aswell so only int is needed to boost.

By the way something which i have always wondered, is why everyone have the same in every weapon skill, would it not be tactically more challenging if say archers had more weaponskill in their weapon  of choice the bow and lower in melee skills, as it stands now an archer can easily match or even outmatch a swordman. There is absolutly no reason to have infantry in my oppinion when you can have a guy with a bow that when out of arrows perform aswell or close to pretty much every infantry out there -except the super troops like blademasters etc ofc.

This is also a problem when it comes to sally forth vs a ton of archers, if they had really been archers a sally forth with heavy infantry could have devestated their lines but as it stands now you can just whack them back just as good as they whack you. Even with the arrow nerf, if you have strong archers, like rangers or armored crossbowmen you will most likely defeat the sallying troops.

Any explenation for why its like this? I m not complaining, id just like to understand.

 

[noosers]

Caused by the way troops stats are declared in the troops.py. There are a couple of pre-declared header levels - like 30 or so - with the various stats for male and female and special troops, and a good deal of preconfigured header skillsets including weapon proficiency levels which are called upon - means the whole troops thing was greatly optimized and enhanced to prior versions in terms of handling.

If you compare the troops closely,Ravenstern Rangers or Armoured Crossbows are inferior to melee troopers of a similar level having lower power strike and slightly different skills.

The only reason why you can prolly kill all the opposing engaging army is because they don´t field 100 Huscarls or Empire Legionaires/Gladiators to kill your 100 Ravenstern Rangers or 100 Armoured Crossbows but quite a lot of inferior troops along. Try the same thing with a simliar troop distribution as the AI runs and embrace yourself in equal slaughter or raise difficulty to it´s fullest.

Why shouldn´t an archer be as proficient as swordsman as a melee fighter? The main difference and important thing is their equipment. A Armored Axer will easily kill off a Ravenstern Ranger and Empire Crossbows were designed to be the sturdiest archers around mainly for their lack of heavy cavalry so it works fine and well.

Blademasters are just as super as your Ravenstern Rangers or Empire Armoured Crossbows, they´re tier five troops and apart from their slightly obscene level not much different than their precedessors, the D`Shar Bladesmen. Apart from their high level giving them a damage boon (my own private suspection that the relative lvl difference of troops does play a major role in damage dealt/recieved) their true nastiness comes from the D´Shar sabre and not using a shield usually resulting in first strike and quick kill.

So if your masochistic feelings are neglected by PoP go and siege Singal. With archers only.

 

[Dokyu]

the potion gves cha aswell so only int is needed to boost.

So im just unlucky at not being able to find him or is he just a
one shot deal?

 

[Malanthor]

Caused by the way troops stats are declared in the troops.py. There are a couple of pre-declared header levels - like 30 or so - with the various stats for male and female and special troops, and a good deal of preconfigured header skillsets including weapon proficiency levels which are called upon - means the whole troops thing was greatly optimized and enhanced to prior versions in terms of handling.

If you compare the troops closely,Ravenstern Rangers or Armoured Crossbows are inferior to melee troopers of a similar level having lower power strike and slightly different skills.

The only reason why you can prolly kill all the opposing engaging army is because they don´t field 100 Huscarls or Empire Legionaires/Gladiators to kill your 100 Ravenstern Rangers or 100 Armoured Crossbows but quite a lot of inferior troops along. Try the same thing with a simliar troop distribution as the AI runs and embrace yourself in equal slaughter or raise difficulty to it´s fullest.

Why shouldn´t an archer be as proficient as swordsman as a melee fighter? The main difference and important thing is their equipment. A Armored Axer will easily kill off a Ravenstern Ranger and Empire Crossbows were designed to be the sturdiest archers around mainly for their lack of heavy cavalry so it works fine and well.

Blademasters are just as super as your Ravenstern Rangers or Empire Armoured Crossbows, they´re tier five troops and apart from their slightly obscene level not much different than their precedessors, the D`Shar Bladesmen. Apart from their high level giving them a damage boon (my own private suspection that the relative lvl difference of troops does play a major role in damage dealt/recieved) their true nastiness comes from the D´Shar sabre and not using a shield usually resulting in first strike and quick kill.

So if your masochistic feelings are neglected by PoP go and siege Singal. With archers only.

I see. And yes you never fight 100 huscarls or scorpion assasins etc but a mix of high tier and low tier troops and that is the reason you win. I know this offcource, i do see the difference in stats between say a huscarl and a ranger, and its there but its not as big as it maybe (in my oppinion) should be. Even if you were to go up against 100 huscarls with 100 rangers in melee you would get a fair share of kills. The reason why this is not okay? Well spending one hour shooting precludes spending one hour training swordplay. longbow is not an easily mastered weapon (on the other hand crossbow is alot easier) and sure an archer may know something abouth melee combat even though he usually stays back and showeres the enemy with arrows, but there will always be a difference in skill and experience between him and a frontline fighther. The only exception to this would be some elite force that devoted ALOT of their time to mastering combat in all its aspects, like a commando soldier today. (eventhey are not halfway serious enough though) The differences there would be miniscule due to the roof on human abbility. There is after all a human limit to how good one can get. Anyway, thanks for the explanation. And yeah i miht go siege singal with my silvermists. The evil slavers must die to ensure a better world after all.

 

[Malanthor]

the potion gves cha aswell so only int is needed to boost.

So im just unlucky at not being able to find him or is he just a
one shot deal?

Just unlucky, i suggest going on a wild tour from cit to city, sooner or later you have to find him. just remember that he moves around so it might take a while. Try saving at a point and going different routes from there checking taverns.

 

[Gudzini]

Is TweakMB the safe way to make minor changes for yourself with this mod or would you recomend some other program?
...

It is not safe. Many options are unavailable 
My expirience refers to previous version PoP 3.01, but Warband PoP seems to be the same (in TweakMB). And I not tried any change in Warband.

Still you have to try  And watch for changed files 

 

[noosers]

Not really. If two massed formations clank into each other, skill matters little. It´s just applied brutality. And your view how archers were deployed is wrong as well. They didn´t stand back showering the enemy with arrows while the infantry was engaging. They usually loosened a few volleys and once the enemy got in range, joined the ranks of infantry, for the kill, the loot and plunder. And they were pretty fierce fighters and capable of doing quite some damage.

What they weren´t was as heavily armoured as the average Men at Arms. So I wouldn´t assume your average archer who had seen much action on the field of battle and survived the odd battle by either sheer luck or skill was pretty capable of fighting. Since I assume what mastering the long english war bow gives you is quite a lot of physical strenght in the upper body section I reckon those people were heavy hitters as well. Now imagine someone who can easily lift 50-80kg single handedly a couple of times without breaking into a sweat pouding your sorry little arse with that nasty maul or axe.

If the way PoP pictures this is against your personal flavour, you can easily tweak it to your likings with the troopeditor and one or two hours spent.

The potion seller will finally appear. Simply check out all taverns regularily and you´ll be able to exchange as many Qualis Gems against the magic potion as you own.

As it has been stated a gazillion of times already, once more:

Meddle with the Occult at your own risk! PoP huges huge and extensive recoding of large parts of fresh and old code. Whatever you may change with MBtweak can proof devastatious for your PoP game. Do it at your own risk and don´t come crying if The Face of Doom pays a visit to you or Gollum decides to appear or your single precious day 1200 savegame is corrupted.

If you´re still eager to change anything, go check the regarding threads. You may find them applying a quick search.

 

[rabican]

Apart from their high level giving them a damage boon (my own private suspection that the relative lvl difference of troops does play a major role in damage dealt/recieved)

IIRC , IIAFR , in native, level doesn't play part in damage calculations, but the strength(5 strenght is equivelant of 1 pt of weapon damage, or around that) and profiencies(every 100 profiency is around 15% damage increase)  and these are  pretty much always higher for higher tier troops. Or something like that anyways.  Pop likely hasn't changed anything in how damage is handled as it has been pretty much impossible to change until recent patches.




Profiencies are just faster/easier mod if you make them all same. They could be different for each but really, why bother?

 

[Malanthor]

Not really. If two massed formations clank into each other, skill matters little. It´s just applied brutality. And your view how archers were deployed is wrong as well. They didn´t stand back showering the enemy with arrows while the infantry was engaging. They usually loosened a few volleys and once the enemy got in range, joined the ranks of infantry, for the kill, the loot and plunder. And they were pretty fierce fighters and capable of doing quite some damage.

What they weren´t was as heavily armoured as the average Men at Arms. So I wouldn´t assume your average archer who had seen much action on the field of battle and survived the odd battle by either sheer luck or skill was pretty capable of fighting. Since I assume what mastering the long english war bow gives you is quite a lot of physical strenght in the upper body section I reckon those people were heavy hitters as well. Now imagine someone who can easily lift 50-80kg single handedly a couple of times without breaking into a sweat pouding your sorry little arse with that nasty maul or axe.

If the way PoP pictures this is against your personal flavour, you can easily tweak it to your likings with the troopeditor and one or two hours spent.

Hehe. i dont mind that it is the way it is, as you said: personal preferences and i can easily change it with troop editor for myself. I just have to comment on what you said abouth that if two massed formations clank into oneanother skill matters little but brutality does. I dont agree at all, skill is not just personal finesse, but how you fight together with others aswell, the way you protect your neighbour etc. A skilled group vs a unskilled one will ALWAYS win. No matter if the other is brutal to a high degree. I would say that everyone that fights in such a way has enough brutality for the task, its not like we take a soft accountant from today and put him into a phalanx where he starts to cry and beg and weep.
And longbowmen took time to train so why waste them in frontline combat where they were ill fit to fight with their lighther armor and smaller/fewer weapon. In most historical cases archers were simply used to shower the enemy with arrows before beeing kept back while others did the fighting, but ofc you will find examples of them beeing used as frontline figthers aswell, tings vary from culture to culture and in how the battle goes. Generally speaking archers were not a frontline fighting unit to the same degree as a man at arms/spearman/swordman/foot knightwhatever, atleast in my experience. Nor did the have anywhere near their fighting skills in melee. Skill triumps over brutality every time, ive seen it with my own eyes.

 

[HunterAlpha1]

keep in mind also that many cultures didn't even bother armouring their archers; after all, you're already having to wrestle with a bow that takes incredible upper body strength, you don't want armour to encumber you and make it even harder.

 

[smakemupagus]

@smakemupagus:
Great. It had the intended effect then. AA (Anti Archer) sally forth will only occur if you met the prequesites, fielding a 100% archers army is one of them. Add surplus infantry and you´ll be fine. It was invented to prevent people from shooting down the advancing enemies who were assaulting your troops in such a sally out. Assume the hostile troopers just left the hidden sidegate and overturned your troops from behind totally taking them by surprise. Since there´s too little space on most maps to simulate this (and you definetly don´t want 50 Blademasters spawn 1 pace behind your archers and infantry) this solution was chosen.

However, if you survive the sally out, you can proceed with your arrowstorm tactic as you used to

well, i can get behind the idea of AA Sally.  it's just frustrating because the combination of (a) with 1/4 ammo it's instant death and (b) it's wasn't clear what to do to avoid it.  It's not like i actually had 100% archers, i also had ~40 krol guard and a couple dozen various empire infantry, and yes, probably 100 archers bumped up to the top of the army list.  anyway, thanks for the reply, now i have a better idea how to work around it.

for what it's worth i would have prefered 1 pace behind; at longer range we had no chance at all since they approached in shield wall and blasted away with javelins.  might as well have just a voice boom "You came with an army composition unpleasing to the Gods!", kill 50 guys, kick ansen in the nads and lame my horse

 

[Aetavicus]

2 Questions:

1) Is there any way to force your companions to use Horse archery? I equip them with a bow in the first slot but they do not seem to use it when on horseback. When I order them to charge they just take out their swords instead.

2) Is there some sort of horse archer weapon script in the mod similar to the lance script that was recently implemented? Asking because my HAs always manage to get themselves into melee

 

[slyspy]

Companions switch between close combat and ranged the same as any AI horseman does, ie apparantly at random. The best way of keeping them firing is to get them to follow you and run around the enemy without engaging. Not so good if you are not a horse archer!

I've given up with horse archers in M&B to be honest. The AI isn't up to the task for a start. In PoP where many horsemen also have a ranged weapon this is immediately obvious. The number of times I've seen a horseman in melee draw out his crossbow makes me cry. I'd like to see ranged weapons removed from most mounted troops.

The other failing of many horse archers is their light horses which again the AI is simply incapable of using.

I say keep your archers on foot and make your cavalry as heavy has you like. Except Leth who does great whatever!

Edit:

The size of the battlefield and the number of combatants also has an influence on the effectiveness of horse archers.