[TWC] Group Stage Week 2

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Gibby Jr

Marquis
Donut decision will be made soon. In the meantime:

Week 3 (final groupstage week) matches and maps:

Group A
Snappers vs Animals
Community Elon Musk vs BELEDIYE SOVALYELERI

Group B
ChimpZ vs 23rd
Forgotten Few vs Parayı Almaya Geldik

Group C
Frontline Tactics vs Vicious
The Best Ever vs Gretzens

Group D
Napoleonic Native Noobs vs Kamikaze
96y vs Légionnaire Français

Native Maps:
San'di'boush
Vaegirs vs Rhodoks

River Village
Nords vs Swadia

Will post full thread later today.
 

Habimana

Grandmaster Knight
Watly said:
I don't care about the rounds, I don't believe it was a deciding factor in us losing the native side.

The reason I'm making a big deal out of this is because your teammate cheated, purposefully or not, and there needs to be punishment. It doesn't matter if it didn't affect the match result in the end; a level playing field is a cornerstone in fair competition. If match results can stand in which illegal modifications were used, why not use them in the finals and argue they didn't affect the result there then as well? Who cares about permanent bans at that stage for example.

I dislike how you forgotten plebs keep talking as if you won in a tournament where the winner is determined based on an aggregate of native and NW. It shows an incredible disregard to the NW side of things when you act as if only the native match matters.

@Habi, kinda sad how you lost 2-12 to a team with a terrible caller, says a lot about you.
Kinda sad how you boost your ego by winning vs a troll team. Says a lot about you.  :fruity:
 

부부를 넘어서 가자

Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&S
Why are you even discussing? No matter the outcome forgotten lost the Match after chimpz won 1 round. If you were smart you'd come out and say you drop all the rounds that donut played since it was a mistake. Wouldn't change the result of the match but gives you a chance to have him available for the next match. Round difference shouldnt matter in groupstage anyway.
 

Herishey

Sergeant at Arms
WBNWWF&SVC
ChimpZ already won 12-0 on NW so talking about the match itself is pointless imo, just let the admins decide a punishment/solution it's not like it affected the outcome of the match......
 

Watly

Grandmaster Knight
WB
This is a tournament with a big prizepool by Warband standards. What legitimacy does this tournament have when a result in it was acquired by a player using forbidden modifications.

The precedent (GrafBlade wnl6) was a full tournament ban and an option to claim all won rounds. I do not see on which grounds the admin team would arrive at a different ruling, as anything less than that leaves the door wide open for cheating.

Side-note: the result of this match matters a lot for the Forgotten guys; it is likely to be the difference between second and third place in the groupstage for them.

EDIT: I also remember SotaMursu getting a full tourney ban + a really rough call on whether to leave the rounds banned for using pink javelins. Again, anything less than a tourney ban + defaulting the rounds would be a meme.
 

Herishey

Sergeant at Arms
WBNWWF&SVC
I am not saying that the rule-break doesn't warrant such a punishment I'm simply saying there is no point repeating the same arguments. As Gibby already said the admins will take a look into it and decide what to do, no need to be a broken record about it. :smile:
 

Watly

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Herishey said:
I am not saying that the rule-break doesn't warrant such a punishment I'm simply saying there is no point repeating the same arguments. As Gibby already said the admins will take a look into it and decide what to do, no need to be a broken record about it. :smile:

At the time you posted this, it seems Gibby had already decided what to do. By only banning Donut for one week and not giving us the option to claim the rounds Forgotten have acquired using a cheating player, you make a mockery of your own ruleset. This one

Rules & Regulations said:
§ 2 Cheating

(1) It is strictly prohibited to gain an advantage by modifying texture files or using game modifications such as aimbots or autoblock. Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications in order to gain an advantage will be banned from the tournament and his or her team will have to forfeit all relevant rounds.

can go straight into the garbage bin, because apparently the admins are okay with deciding on a case-by-case basis which modifications are okay and which aren't. Thank you for legitimizing the use of cheats, I sincerely hope you reconsider.

 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
If that's what the admins decide then that's that. My only suggestion is to possibly make it so he has to take screenshots/recording of every set. I dont know if it's always constantly on or if you can press it on a flick of a button; but if it's always on then maybe just get him to take screenshots at the end of sets, just to make sure he's not using it.
 

GrafBlade

Sergeant Knight
I think we've reached some kind of grey area with this mod, especially when linking it with the current wording of the ruleset:

If we talk about "real" cheats (gamechanging cheats or whatever you'd like to name it) like aimbots or autoblocks, it is way easier to determine a real advantage that was gained. An archer found using aimbot and making 15 ranged kills with 12 headshots in that match, probably even being recorded by someone, gives us a way better basis to work with when making a decision about "advantages", punishments and in general evaluating any cases like this. Same with someone found using autoblock and winning two flag melee fights without a shield in that match.
But now, with this mod, it is really difficult. There is no definition or detailed information given about what kind of advantage we talk. Is a theoretically possible advantage enough to punish someone? Or is at least a certain persuasion and certainty based on evidence necessary to punish someone? (like in my above mentioned examples). Even if anyone would actively use the class composition given on his screen in a match, would anyone of us be able to confidently distinguish whether this information created an advantage or not? Especially if there is no recording? This might be the case once in 1000 rounds being played.

I personally just can't ascribe any possible advantage anyone might gain using that mod enough significance to be punished for. (Why?: As I tried to explain above: I think the probability to really gain an advantage is close to 0)

Right now all that the admin team can base decisions on is a screen with 3 numbers on. It just shows that Donut (or me back in WNL6) played with the modification, but not that he used the given information. There is no further evidence that shows any case in which we reacted to the enemies composition in a way we could only do if we would have had additional information. There was no situation in which this would have been necessary at all. Therefore I think you can not even punish him based on the current ruleset, as I said at the start: I believe this mod revealed a "juridical" grey area in our Warband ruling, as it simply is **** hard to get proper evidence to base a decision on.

@Watly:
I can just assume, but the admin team might have chosen this way as they have similar thoughts as I have:

"...using game modifications in order to gain an advantage..."

Judging this case is based on nothing than a big big assumption about Donut MIGHT having used the information to gain an advantage. And there is no way for the admin team to get closer to any certainty without getting further evidence. And now they had to make a decision with this in mind, with the discussion about possible advantages AND with consequences in mind, which this decision could lead to. Horrible...  :dead:
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Without a harsh punishment given to something that clearly still gives you an advantage means that other people would be willing to use it for such little consequence. In the cheating rules it clearly states:

'Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications in order to gain an advantage will be banned from the tournament and his or her team will have to forfeit all relevant rounds.'

The admins don't really need to know the intention, but more so what the modification does and in this case it does clearly show you the opponent's team composition - if we were sticking to the rules, regardless of how useful the modification would be, a permanent ban should be the end result.

Now, knowing that I could use this modification to get an early advantage (saying 'live' then seeing team compositions then doing a 're-live' and changing setup based on the pre-live composition of the opposing team including wild card tactics such as 8 cavalry) with such little consequence, I can almost say that it's worth it because you can gain a decent advantage before the set even starts, a one match ban for an advantage and no rounds forfeited if caught? Yes please. Donut is nice, so I won't sit here arguing for 7 pages about why he should get a severe punishment.
 

LaPache

Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&BWF&S
Fietta said:
Without a harsh punishment given to something that clearly still gives you an advantage means that other people would be willing to use it for such little consequence. In the cheating rules it clearly states:

'Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications in order to gain an advantage will be banned from the tournament and his or her team will have to forfeit all relevant rounds.'

The admins don't really need to know the intention, but more so what the modification does and in this case it does clearly show you the opponent's team composition - if we were sticking to the rules, regardless of how useful the modification would be, a permanent ban should be the end result.

Now, knowing that I could use this modification to get an early advantage (saying 'live' then seeing team compositions then doing a 're-live' and changing setup based on the pre-live composition of the opposing team including wild card tactics such as 8 cavalry) with such little consequence, I can almost say that it's worth it because you can gain a decent advantage before the set even starts, a one match ban for an advantage and no rounds forfeited if caught? Yes please. Donut is nice, so I won't sit here arguing for 7 pages about why he should get a severe punishment.
I still think Donut didn't mean to get an advantage by using this mod but still I have to agree this ban is sending a bad signal to all people actively using this modification and using the advantages that it gives you.
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
Marquis
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It doesn't have to be permanent, but having all relevant rounds forfeited with a match ban would suffice as it gives reason to not use it. But it's the admin's decision so hopefully they understand my suggestion.
 

GrafBlade

Sergeant Knight
Fietta said:
Now, knowing that I could use this modification to get an early advantage (saying 'live' then seeing team compositions then doing a 're-live' and changing setup based on the pre-live composition of the opposing team including wild card tactics such as 8 cavalry) with such little consequence, I can almost say that it's worth it because you can gain a decent advantage before the set even starts, a one match ban for an advantage and no rounds forfeited if caught? Yes please. Donut is nice, so I won't sit here arguing for 7 pages about why he should get a severe punishment.

Valid point. I'm such a nice person, I haven't thought about people being that deceitful  :cry:

Fietta said:
Without a harsh punishment given to something that clearly still gives you an advantage means that other people would be willing to use it for such little consequence. In the cheating rules it clearly states:

'Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications in order to gain an advantage will be banned from the tournament and his or her team will have to forfeit all relevant rounds.'

The admins don't really need to know the intention, but more so what the modification does and in this case it does clearly show you the opponent's team composition - if we were sticking to the rules, regardless of how useful the modification would be, a permanent ban should be the end result.

I agree, a kinda harsh punishment would probably be the better way when we are talking about determent. 
Yet, I think the way the rule is written leaves a legal grey area open and is not as clear as you think it is, as "in order to gain an advantage" implies that someone has to do it intentionally, which is basically impossible to prove without recordings. And without proof no punishment. I think the admin life would be easier if the rule looks like this:

'Every player that is found to have modified texture files or using game modifications which could be used to gain an advantage will be banned from the tournament and his or her team will have to forfeit all relevant rounds.'


This way it doesn't matter how nice the advantage is or if someone purposefully tried to gain an advantage or not, as soon as there is an advantage possible, the mod is forbidden and therefore the player can be punished. It actually is against my own attitude about how situations should be dealt with, but it probably is the best way to clearify the ruling at this point if we keep this rule superficial like that.

 
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