Sturgian Druzhinnik identity?

[ElCrisp]

The Sturrgian noble unit the champion druzhinnik seems to me to lack a unique identity.
I feel we already have so many lance cavalry:

1. Imperial Cataphract - Two handed lance + Mace
2. Asarai Faris - Lance + Javlins give it a cool hybrid niche
3. Vlandian Banner Knight Top in class as classic lancer.

I really like the kievan rus aesthetic but the champion druzhinnik doesnt excite me to recruit as just a sub par version of the Banner Night, or if they were to buff them, I dont want the noble units to be simple reskins of one another as I think they provide a cool point of faction difference.

Here are possible changes that take my fancy:

• I think it could be cool if the champion druzhinnik didnt have a lance. Instead having the best one handed skill in game, and have excellent athletics, so he is still as much a menace if ever dehorsed.
• Move a weaker Cav unit back onto the main tree and have the Sturggian noble unit be some sort of infantry unit while still looking Kieven Rus
• Perhaps Heavy cav with a two handed axe + high athletics.

A sepperate but adjacent problem for this units identity I feel is the state of axes, I like axe use as a point of difference for this unit, but currently I dont understand the point of axes, they dont appear to have any thing they do better than either swords or maces and for different reasons appear to me just to be the inferior of either.

Anyway what do other people think? What does your sturgian noble look like?

 

[panxo_dakilla]

They need to have horses, or at least the noble line needs to have horses because the nobles are closer to Vaegirs than Nords. Nord influence for Sturgia is supposed to come more from mercenaries and adventurers, so the vast majority of nobles shouldn't fight like Nords. I think the Druzhinnik is fine as it is, except maybe for the lack of a ranged weapon (Rus were pretty good at it, eventually)

 

[xdj1nn]

The Sturrgian noble unit the champion druzhinnik seems to me to lack a unique identity.
I feel we already have so many lance cavalry:

1. Imperial Cataphract - Two handed lance + Mace
2. Asarai Faris - Lance + Javlins give it a cool hybrid niche
3. Vlandian Banner Knight Top in class as classic lancer.

I really like the kievan rus aesthetic but the champion druzhinnik doesnt excite me to recruit as just a sub par version of the Banner Night, or if they were to buff them, I dont want the noble units to be simple reskins of one another as I think they provide a cool point of faction difference.

Here are possible changes that take my fancy:

• I think it could be cool if the champion druzhinnik didnt have a lance. Instead having the best one handed skill in game, and have excellent athletics, so he is still as much a menace if ever dehorsed.
• Move a weaker Cav unit back onto the main tree and have the Sturggian noble unit be some sort of infantry unit while still looking Kieven Rus
• Perhaps Heavy cav with a two handed axe + high athletics.

A sepperate but adjacent problem for this units identity I feel is the state of axes, I like axe use as a point of difference for this unit, but currently I dont understand the point of axes, they dont appear to have any thing they do better than either swords or maces and for different reasons appear to me just to be the inferior of either.

Anyway what do other people think? What does your sturgian noble look like?

the correct theme for them would be 2 handers + lances (like Vaegir knights in Warband). Back there they were not "sub-par" knights, the fact that they've carried 2 handers made them supersede Swadian Knights when used properly. (At times I'd would even dismount them to take advantage of their full capability with 2 handers)

Got me thinking, I'm not even sure what equipment they use because they are too scarce and rare for us players to recruit (really difficult to find Varyag units anywhere within Sturgia, sometimes I see 2 at most in a single village for like in-game months)...

 

[Maximum997]

Anyway what do other people think? What does your sturgian noble look like?

I am fine with weapons. But I dont like their noble troop tree. And thats why:
Varyag is a norseman. But druzhinnik is a rus noble. And it is kinda strange.

 

[xdj1nn]

I am fine with weapons. But I dont like their noble troop tree. And thats why:
Varyag is a norseman. But druzhinnik is a rus noble. And it is kinda strange.

I think Varyag should split into 2 elite units, one mounted, one Huscarl. I also think it's quite ridiculous, problem is that they'd need to start considering split noble troops for all factions if they do that. I'd also find it quite awesome if we could have Varangian troops for Empire, or even maybe change Druzhinnik troops completely and transform them into Varangians (that'd be cool haha)

 

[Jarl Snow]

Theres an easy fix for that. Create the desired unit youd wanna replace or even simpler make the Varyag turn into the already made huscarl who just needs stats and troop tree. Or if you wanna make him a strong foot soldier its even more simple, just edit his stats in the spcharacters. I know this isnt easy if you know nothing about coding so if you guys would wanna have someone do it id be happy to help out.

 

[Hugo_Stiglitz]

I'm waiting for an all encompassing, total overhaul mod for the Sturgians that does a full blown, proper recreation of Russ type troops with a few alternate/optional Varangian/Norse troop trees . I've seen a couple that are shaping up over at Nexus but mostly incomplete and/or buggy.

 

[ElCrisp]

the correct theme for them would be 2 handers + lances (like Vaegir knights in Warband). Back there they were not "sub-par" knights, the fact that they've carried 2 handers made them supersede Swadian Knights when used properly. (At times I'd would even dismount them to take advantage of their full capability with 2 handers)

I think this could be cool. I do want them to be very Rus. Just not another lancer with a one-hander.

 

[Azacnathelas]

I always had the thought that Battania was for the Vaegirs and Sturgia was for the Nords by the culture... (Nords are sea man and Vaegirs are the mountin guys.) I think both cultures troop trees must be check and replaced...

 

[xdj1nn]

I always had the thought that Battania was for the Vaegirs and Sturgia was for the Nords by the culture... (Nords are sea man and Vaegirs are the mountin guys.) I think both cultures troop trees must be check and replaced...

Rhodoks are the mountain Guys in Warband, Vaegir were the Rus guys (absolutely no ****ing relation with mountains), it seems you thought incorrectly. There's absolutely no Battanian equivalent in Warband, they are a mix of Swadia with Nords and Vaegir from Warband, some of their infantry is fitted seemingly with Nords, their archers are obviously Vaegir equivalent, and their mounted units + 2 handers remind me of some Swadian units mixed with some Vaegir Units. Sturgia is like an abortion because they lack both Huscarls and Archers, their infantry is tougher, but they are not as effective as Nords in Warband, and have absolutely zero influence from Vaegir units, they just look similar, but play entirely differently.

Warband was basically the following:
Nord infantry the best
Vaegir archers the best
Swadian Knights the best
Rhodok pikemen the best anti-cavalry
Rhodok Crossbows the best
Khergit Horse Archers the most OP unit in Warband. In BL the Khuzaits are almost as OP, but lack speed, so they are more counter-able, and less annoying to deal with (still the most annoying faction in the game)
Sarranid nothing special. Sub-par equivalents of other factions, jack of all trades, the equivalent of Empire in BL.

Battania is it's own thing, and it isn't really good neither because they lack any sort of protection... If you pick only their elite upgrades (best of the best), they'll die too easily to enemy archers, they can't really puncture through enemy infantry, and their archers are really OP, but lack infantry or cavalry to protect them from cavalry charges.

PS: Just remembered, I think Rhodoks had some elite 2 hander units, so Battania copied them on that regard, but Rhodoks 2 handers under-performed and were never worth the hassle, differently from Nords or Vaegir, Rhodoks would use 2h swords, while Nords and Vaegir would use 2h Axes and Bardiches respectively..

 

[Gummiel]

Personally I do wish they had just extended the varyg the entire way for sturgian noble. Granted I don't know too much about the rus they are supposed to also take inspiration from, but another point also is that there is currently 0 noble infantry at max tier, as the onyl type of unit lacking a max tier, where as all the other types of units are represented in nobles around (and yeah lance cav is the one that have most of them). So from that standpoint if nothing else imo it would make a lot of sense for sturgia to get a noble infantry

 

[Maximum997]

In BL the Khuzaits are almost as OP, but lack speed, so they are more counter-able, and less annoying to deal with (still the most annoying faction in the game)

Ib BL even poopy pesant archer knows what arch and prediction he needs to hit a running horseman from 150 meters away. It makes horse archers not as OP.

 

[Caps]

imo the druz should be infantry on horse

 

[Reiksmarshal]

I wish they would fix their horse armor, the model is missing the head piece.

Spoiler

 

[xdj1nn]

Ib BL even poopy pesant archer knows what arch and prediction he needs to hit a running horseman from 150 meters away. It makes horse archers not as OP.

you think so? Try the cheese Warband tactics, form an army of pure Khuzait horse archers, f1 f3, tell me if you lose.

 

[vota dc]

The Sturrgian noble unit the champion druzhinnik seems to me to lack a unique identity.
I feel we already have so many lance cavalry:

1. Imperial Cataphract - Two handed lance + Mace
2. Asarai Faris - Lance + Javlins give it a cool hybrid niche
3. Vlandian Banner Knight Top in class as classic lancer.

I really like the kievan rus aesthetic but the champion druzhinnik doesnt excite me to recruit as just a sub par version of the Banner Night, or if they were to buff them, I dont want the noble units to be simple reskins of one another as I think they provide a cool point of faction difference.

Here are possible changes that take my fancy:

• I think it could be cool if the champion druzhinnik didnt have a lance. Instead having the best one handed skill in game, and have excellent athletics, so he is still as much a menace if ever dehorsed.
• Move a weaker Cav unit back onto the main tree and have the Sturggian noble unit be some sort of infantry unit while still looking Kieven Rus
• Perhaps Heavy cav with a two handed axe + high athletics.

A sepperate but adjacent problem for this units identity I feel is the state of axes, I like axe use as a point of difference for this unit, but currently I dont understand the point of axes, they dont appear to have any thing they do better than either swords or maces and for different reasons appear to me just to be the inferior of either.

Anyway what do other people think? What does your sturgian noble look like?

Something like warg rider in tld mod? Warg rider was very easy to be killed but after dehorsed the warg would still be in battle to damage. In this case horse would be weaker but rider would still be Dangerous at foot.
They would use horse just to reach archers and fight cavalry but would fight infantry at foot?

 

[Azacnathelas]

Rhodoks are the mountain Guys in Warband, Vaegir were the Rus guys (absolutely no ****ing relation with mountains), it seems you thought incorrectly. There's absolutely no Battanian equivalent in Warband, they are a mix of Swadia with Nords and Vaegir from Warband, some of their infantry is fitted seemingly with Nords, their archers are obviously Vaegir equivalent, and their mounted units + 2 handers remind me of some Swadian units mixed with some Vaegir Units. Sturgia is like an abortion because they lack both Huscarls and Archers, their infantry is tougher, but they are not as effective as Nords in Warband, and have absolutely zero influence from Vaegir units, they just look similar, but play entirely differently.

Warband was basically the following:
Nord infantry the best
Vaegir archers the best
Swadian Knights the best
Rhodok pikemen the best anti-cavalry
Rhodok Crossbows the best
Khergit Horse Archers the most OP unit in Warband. In BL the Khuzaits are almost as OP, but lack speed, so they are more counter-able, and less annoying to deal with (still the most annoying faction in the game)
Sarranid nothing special. Sub-par equivalents of other factions, jack of all trades, the equivalent of Empire in BL.

Battania is it's own thing, and it isn't really good neither because they lack any sort of protection... If you pick only their elite upgrades (best of the best), they'll die too easily to enemy archers, they can't really puncture through enemy infantry, and their archers are really OP, but lack infantry or cavalry to protect them from cavalry charges.

PS: Just remembered, I think Rhodoks had some elite 2 hander units, so Battania copied them on that regard, but Rhodoks 2 handers under-performed and were never worth the hassle, differently from Nords or Vaegir, Rhodoks would use 2h swords, while Nords and Vaegir would use 2h Axes and Bardiches respectively..

Nope you are wrong..

Rhodoks was closer to the Empire with that big shielded spear men and crossbowed units.

Vaegirs are northen guys from the mountains - not directly russians but mixed -- with mostly using one & two handed axes , best archers and good heavy cavalry
Nords -- were the Vikings with rounded shields and no cavalry units they had huscarls and good archers

Also from the location of the kingdoms and the banners I can say that the Sturgians should be closer with NORD culture , where the Battanians should be on the VAEGIR culture. So that I think That heavy horseman of the Sturgians are in the wrong kingdoms troop tree..

Thats why I wrote the troop trees must be rechecked according to the culture histories.

 

[xdj1nn]

Nope you are wrong..

Rhodoks was closer to the Empire with that big shielded spear men and crossbowed units.

Vaegirs are northen guys from the mountains - not directly russians but mixed -- with mostly using one & two handed axes , best archers and good heavy cavalry
Nords -- were the Vikings with rounded shields and no cavalry units they had huscarls and good archers

Also from the location of the kingdoms and the banners I can say that the Sturgians should be closer with NORD culture , where the Battanians should be on the VAEGIR culture. So that I think That heavy horseman of the Sturgians are in the wrong kingdoms troop tree..

Thats why I wrote the troop trees must be rechecked according to the culture histories.

what? lol I think you are the only person who believes that, it's like a "flat-earther" of M&B

 

[panxo_dakilla]

Nope you are wrong..

Rhodoks was closer to the Empire with that big shielded spear men and crossbowed units.

Vaegirs are northen guys from the mountains - not directly russians but mixed -- with mostly using one & two handed axes , best archers and good heavy cavalry
Nords -- were the Vikings with rounded shields and no cavalry units they had huscarls and good archers

Also from the location of the kingdoms and the banners I can say that the Sturgians should be closer with NORD culture , where the Battanians should be on the VAEGIR culture. So that I think That heavy horseman of the Sturgians are in the wrong kingdoms troop tree..

Thats why I wrote the troop trees must be rechecked according to the culture histories.

Dude this isn't open for interpretation, it is lore explained by devs. Battania on warband times is extinct/assimilated. The Sturgians are the predecessors of the Vaegir, who lost a lot of land to Nord invaders sometime between BL and WB. The reason they may feel nordish to you is that they have Nord influence from settled Nord adventurers and mercenaries they assimilated (A sort of parallel with real life Kievan Rus)

Rhodoks are a rebel faction that split from Swadia, so they are not Battanians, they are actually Vlandians.

 

[Bannerman Man]

I think it could be cool if the champion druzhinnik didnt have a lance. Instead having the best one handed skill in game, and have excellent athletics, so he is still as much a menace if ever dehorsed.

imo the druz should be infantry on horse

Yeah, I really like the idea of a mounted heavy infantry unit that can use their horses to manuever around the enemy line, dismount, then engage the enemy flank on foot.

If they take a page from Age of Empire's book they could allow them to hit multiple units per swing as a sort of "trample damage" if the engine allows for them to adjust individual troop type parameters like that. If it does, they could increase the Charge/Trample damage for Cataphracts like AoE does, or any other unique faction cav line for that matter.