Is this Statement true and if so what happened during the 8 years? i just want some general info from what people know
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Question about this 8 years of Development thing
- Thread starter Savagecanadian43
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Yup, basically they announced the game too early in their own words, they had just begun working on the game and revealed a teaser announcing the game (2012 if i remember correctly)
People got hyped "oh it' finalyl announced, it must be comming in a few years"
In 2016 they announced they would like to have the game in the players hands by the end of the year (either early access or full release we didn't knew at the time)
Time went by after that and we only got the game in 2020 with the bugs we all know and less features than previously announced even after they had already told about some scrapped features in interviews before release like RIP... castle building
My theory is that they started developing a really ambitious project, the first years were spent most on the engine and when it was time to join together all pieces to start forming the game they got stuck in development hell always reworking things that could be better (we saw some 3 versions of the world map, lots of lighting overhauls etc all during development) so features got axed and scope reduced by the management to try and make the game finaly see the light of day.
People got hyped "oh it' finalyl announced, it must be comming in a few years"
In 2016 they announced they would like to have the game in the players hands by the end of the year (either early access or full release we didn't knew at the time)
Time went by after that and we only got the game in 2020 with the bugs we all know and less features than previously announced even after they had already told about some scrapped features in interviews before release like RIP... castle building
My theory is that they started developing a really ambitious project, the first years were spent most on the engine and when it was time to join together all pieces to start forming the game they got stuck in development hell always reworking things that could be better (we saw some 3 versions of the world map, lots of lighting overhauls etc all during development) so features got axed and scope reduced by the management to try and make the game finaly see the light of day.
What's to know. They announced the game 8 years ago give or take and the game is still in early access. Beyond that I don't think anyone know much of anything. They have about 100 employees and not everyone works as a developer but you have to think that most of them do work in development side so they should have a pretty good size development team, big enough anyway that there shouldn't be many delays due to manpower or you wouldn't think so anyway. Also according to their wiki, they have only did the Mount & Blade series of game so the team there should be 100% devoted to developing Bannerlord.
As for why so many people keep bringing up the 8 years thing, The established development cycle standard for most AAA titles is about 3-5 years with longer 8 year development cycles solely the realm of massively large scale game so Bannerlord has already taken twice as long as is normal for a game of its rather limited scope. No one really understands this especially when you have total conversion mods for Warband with about 10 time the scope and features, that release from a team of 3-5 volunteers in about a year and a half or so. Granted they are starting those mods with a release framework for them but then you have to consider that by the start of early access, Bannerlord was nearly a released framework when the EA came out and and with an entire company devoted to developing this game couldn't put a 10th of the features into it in a year as a team of half dozen volunteer modders added to Warband in the same time frame.
Again not truly a fair comparison but it does make people wonder how a game developed by a fairly large team of professional developers could only be this far along after 8 years of developing the game. I think that is why people keep poking at them about it.
Yup, basically they announced the game too early in their own words, they had just begun working on the game and revealed a teaser announcing the game (2012 if i remember correctly)
People got hyped "oh it' finalyl announced, it must be comming in a few years"
In 2016 they announced they would like to have the game in the players hands by the end of the year (either early access or full release we didn't knew at the time)
Time went by after that and we only got the game in 2020 with the bugs we all know and less features than previously announced even after they had already told about some scrapped features in interviews before release like RIP... castle building
My theory is that they started developing a really ambitious project, the first years were spent most on the engine and when it was time to join together all pieces to start forming the game they got stuck in development hell always reworking things that could be better (we saw some 3 versions of the world map, lots of lighting overhauls etc all during development) so features got axed and scope reduced by the management to try and make the game finaly see the light of day.
Yep I kind of feel the same thing. The game Bannerlord is, is about a 10th of what they said Bannerlord would be.
My guess is kind of like yours. They had big ideas and ambitions and worked very hard to deliver on that but when it came time to put it all together they had built so much complexity into the game that none of the pieces wanted to fit and work together properly requiring them to kind go back to the drawing board. The only thing is, they don't really want to give up on that work they already completed so they continue to try to incorporate parts of that overly complex, ambitious first design and its still giving them fits. Eventually they ran out of time and money because the project went from a 3-5 year expected development cycle to a 8-10 year development cycle so they decided to do an EA to raise funds. Whelp they had a successful EA with 5 million copies sold so now they have funds and they are trying to finish up the game only those very same complex systems they keep trying to work with, keep holding them back which is why we see so very little actual progress. Instead of progress, it is all hands on deck working to try to force the square peg into the round hole and "Make" it work no matter what.
The game has been in its current state since around 2016, ever since then the lead developers have been going in circles redesigning stuff over and over again, wasting time as if they were close to the end of development. The most progress you see in screenshots and developer blogs is in 2013-2016.
That's actually new knowledge to me. Are you certain about this? I am sure they have done more than that in the past four years.
I know without a doubt that in the year they have spent in early access aside from some balancing, other minor tweaks and a few quality of live additions, the native gameplay feels almost no different now than it did the first day of early access coming out. Nearly every complaint or criticism I had back then remains unchanged today. It litterally blew my mind how little progress there had been in the 9 months I had been away from the game. I don't even think I would have come back had I not remember that EA was supposed to be finishing up about now so I figured I should jump back in and take a look at the "Final Product" hehe.
Tbh thats all i would want would be a Warband based in the time period that Bannerlord is in with a few extra features and a few returning features with more Depth I would have not of complained in the slightest tbh
Yeah, I know. But claiming the game in its current state is about the same as it was in 2016 is a bit too much I think. Unless he has some solid inside source, I simply cannot believe that is the case.
WhyAmIHere
I've read claims that they had to remake the engine from scratch around 2016 or so but I cannot find an official source for this claim. If that were true it would indicate big problems within the project management structure at TW. Any PM worth their salt would stop the ship from hitting the proverbial iceberg way earlier than 4 years into development.
No, it's just him being frustrated. The number one problem for people in this thread is that they don't own a game company. They are all armchair developers without a clue.
I'd guess development of Bannerlord was quite bumpy but I am not going to judge it because it's pretty normal. What matters is that we get a good game.
Even without owning a game company, we can compare it with other games and game company.
No Man's Sky was made by 11 developers in half the time.
Valheim is made by FIVE people and had one third of the development time of BL, and is already in a more advanced EA and is evolving much quicker.
That's true. And this was the SECOND time they have rewritten the BL engine and had to redo the models in addition to that.
Two engine changes explains a healthy chunk of those 8 years. Maybe 5 years of development is a more fair estimate.
You also have to take into account that many senior people apparently left in this last period, likely fed up by the development hell problems. The managing director left a couple of years ago and the resulting change in direction probably took its toll too.
It's not easy to create a game like Bannerlord, but Taleworlds basically failed to change from a small indie dev mindset to a middling game developer that it really is now and we are aware through leaks and Glassdoor reviews about problems that are basically project management failures.
It's an oversimplification but it's mostly true. Bear in mind that quite a few people on this site know developers personally.
I recently asked this question to two of the developers involved and they both said it's not true, and that the engine was basically "done" in 2012 and was just updated incrementally. The funny thing is that I kept seeing this "the engine was made from scratch in 2016" claim and it actually seems to have originated in something I said in 2015, lol.
I'd like to know where that "second time" quote comes from because I asked duh and one of the tech devs and they both said its way more of a Ship of Theseus type deal and no fundamental changes have been made since development began.
They ditched a few models (none of docm's work is still in the game for example), but most of them are actually still there. I was shocked to see the same armour from the first ever screenshots in the current game. The new PBR system doesn't actually require changing the textures completely if you're lazy. The same thing happened with Fallout 4, most of the models in that game are clearly pre-PBR.
I can't say how extensive was the first engine change/rewrite, I only remember a chastised Armagan in a related interview saying "lessons have been learned" and such. I vaguely recall that the problem was about performance and there was a rumor about the Engine Lead at the time leaving.
Obviously you know your PBR stuff and how much was really changed with the second (PBR-related) engine change, so I'll leave that to you.
Cyberpunk was made by one of the most talented studios in the world, it was announced in 2012, 400 employees and cost 150.000 million. ?
By the way, personally I absolutely hate NMS and Valheim. It's no wonder it took so few resources, they are pretty bad games after all.
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i dont know if that has anything to do with the dealy but.... we all know what is happening in turkey.. the political system is not very friendly for critcism and that maybe also lead to a loss of employees.
i also can imagine that the most talented developers rather go into more western countries than to stay in turkey.
second, there is corona.
i also can imagine that the most talented developers rather go into more western countries than to stay in turkey.
second, there is corona.
I guess we have to wait for the game release, and, if the situation presents itself, I will be looking for Jason Shrerier's article.
You don't have to own a game company to have been involved with project management and understand the process. The truth is no one but Taleworlds knows or understands exactly what happened with Bannerlord, but what we do know is they lead off with the announcement of a game that had about 300-400% more content and features than what we got right now and that it took them nearly twice as long as what would normally be expected to develop the game. From a project management standpoint I would say spending twice as long as expected to deliver about 35% of the content expected is pretty indicative of project management gone wrong whatever form that may have taken.
