Mount&Blade II: Bannerlord

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rejenorst said:
Please make an evil companion in game called Ringwraith who is never satisfied with anything, makes bold accusations and whom you can take prisoner and beat to death at your leisure.
Man, that would be the best thing ever. :grin:
Well, except the beating to death bit. :sad:

Splintert said:
Because calling someone a moron makes you correct.
When that someone purposefully chops a quote in half only so that he could post a mocking reply to it for no reason, even though the full quote makes perfect sense, then yes, in that case calling them a moron is 100% correct. Trolling is art, but if I were to liken the best troll posts to Michelangelo's David, what you're doing is making garden gnomes and plastic flamingos.
 
Your statement was so far out of reality that it deserved such a reply. The developers did not purposefully create a bad interface. They purposefully didn't work on it enough to make it good.
 
Splintert said:
Your statement was so far out of reality that it deserved such a reply. The developers did not purposefully create a bad interface. They purposefully didn't work on it enough to make it good.
Ringwraith #5 said:
IMO it's pretty clear the devs made it tedious and obtuse on purpose, out of some misguided desire for realism or immersion or something like that.
Like I said, you're a moron.
 
No, because that doesn't tell me why I'm wrong. You've tried twice now to tell me why what I said was wrong, and both times your explanation had absolutely no relevance to what I actually said. So your way out of the situation you got yourself into is to just assert that you're correct without any kind of reasoning to back it up? You know what? You're a moron. :razz:
 
You are wrong because no developer in his right mind would purposefully create something for the sole purpose of being bad. Especially a developer that didn't originally have publisher support, was essentially coming out of nowhere into the development industry, and relied on player input.

Secondly, they wouldn't have created the UI in a misguided desire for realism because nowhere does the game claim to be realistic. It's merely a medieval action game with directional swordfighting and momentum based damage.

Thirdly, proper UI design requires a considerable amount of work compared to what you'd think. There are many factors that go into a good UI, consistency among menus being one of them. Because of Warband's extremely simple menu system (in that every button merely opens a new screen, there's no overlays or anything), it would not be consistent to create a dropbox of companions in the character screen if they were trying to be consistent. Also take into consideration that a list of companion names could become longer than the space that you showed an example of in your screenshot, albeit easily averted it would break the consistency of the menu button system.

And finally, I agree with you that the UI is bad. I disagree with you why the UI is bad.

Good day, sir.
 
Splintert said:
You are wrong because no developer in his right mind would purposefully create something for the sole purpose of being bad.
Ringwraith #5 said:
IMO it's pretty clear the devs made it tedious and obtuse on purpose, out of some misguided desire for realism or immersion or something like that.
I'm happy to continue copypasting that as many time as it for it to get through your thick skull that I didn't say that they wanted to make it bad.

Secondly, they wouldn't have created the UI in a misguided desire for realism because nowhere does the game claim to be realistic. It's merely a medieval action game with directional swordfighting and momentum based damage.
I said realism or immersion or something like that. I don't know the exact reason, I can only speculate. But there must have been one. These are merely the ones I find most plausible.

Thirdly, proper UI design requires a considerable amount of work compared to what you'd think. There are many factors that go into a good UI, consistency among menus being one of them.
Right, because all the menus in M&B are consistent and not at all a complete cluster****.

Because of Warband's extremely simple menu system (in that every button merely opens a new screen, there's no overlays or anything), it would not be consistent to create a dropbox of companions in the character screen if they were trying to be consistent. Also take into consideration that a list of companion names could become longer than the space that you showed an example of in your screenshot, albeit easily averted it would break the consistency of the menu button system.
Very well, explain this, then:

VbUNr.jpg
See those two buttons up there? They do exactly what you'd expect. There are only two problems with them. Firstly, you need to be in edit mode to get them. And secondly, they cycle though every single NPC in the game, not just those in your party. How difficult would it be to enable them in normal mode and limit them only to NPCs in your party? I've done a little bit of programming myself, and I reckon not very.
No, the UI doesn't require you to go through the party screen and the dialog screen every single time you want to access a companion's stats screen simply because they didn't work on it enough. That much is obvious from the fact that the UI elements that would make the process much easier already exist and function. No, they looked at what they had and said "you know, we could give the player these convenient buttons for switching between characters on the stats screen that we already have coded and working, but let's not do that, let's disable those in normal mode and require the player to go through two other completely unrelated screens for every character instead".
 
Ringwraith #5 said:
I'm happy to continue copypasting that as many time as it for it to get through your thick skull that I didn't say that they wanted to make it bad.
Ringwraith #5 said:
IMO it's pretty clear the devs made it tedious and obtuse on purpose, out of some misguided desire for realism or immersion or something like that.

Tell me again that you did not say the developers created a bad UI on purpose.

Ringwraith #5 said:
I said realism or immersion or something like that. I don't know the exact reason, I can only speculate. But there must have been one. These are merely the ones I find most plausible.

Speculation shouldn't be taken as fact, which is why I presented my thought as a thought as opposed to calling you a moron for having a different opinion.

Ringwraith #5 said:
Right, because all the menus in M&B are consistent and not at all a complete cluster****.

Consistently a cluster**** is still consistency. What we use now is still better than a menu "system" that is completely random and follows no particular rule.

Ringwraith #5 said:
Very well, explain this, then:

Now you're on the right track. The buttons were likely disabled due to some unforeseen bug or crash related to the way it was programmed. That's why edit mode is edit mode and not normal mode.
 
Splintert said:
Ringwraith #5 said:
I'm happy to continue copypasting that as many time as it for it to get through your thick skull that I didn't say that they wanted to make it bad.
Ringwraith #5 said:
IMO it's pretty clear the devs made it tedious and obtuse on purpose, out of some misguided desire for realism or immersion or something like that.
Tell me again that you did not say the developers created a bad UI on purpose.
Like I said, happy to continue doing this until it gets through your thick skull, moron.

Speculation shouldn't be taken as fact.
Which is why I presented it very clearly as an opinion, not a fact. As evidenced by the fact that it's prefaced with "IMO", meaning "in my opinion". Moron.

I presented my thought as a thought as opposed to calling you a moron for having a different opinion.
That's very good, you're learning. Now learn not to take things out of context purely so that you can mock them and you won't get called a moron for it.

Consistently a cluster**** is still consistency. What we use now is still better than a menu "system" that is completely random and follows no particular rule.
I'm almost tempted to put that first sentence into my sig. But it doesn't quite cut the mustard, I'm afraid.

Now you're on the right track. The buttons were likely disabled due to some unforeseen bug or crash related to the way it was programmed. That's why edit mode is edit mode and not normal mode.
What was it you said about speculation again?
 
It doesn't matter whether they allegedly created the bad UI on purpose to try to have some realism or immersion, you're still claiming they did it on purpose.

Skipping past the ad hominem arguments....

Okay, you got me. I'll change it to
Splintert said:
IMO, the buttons were likely disabled due to some unforeseen bug or crash related to the way it was programmed. That's why edit mode is edit mode and not normal mode.

Done folding those undergarments, Madoc?
 
*Holds up picket sign*
NO MORE UNDERGARMENTS!

Anyway, Ringwraith he has a point, if they screwed up the UI by trying to make things immersive, that's accidental (even though the actions were deliberate). Now, if they had made so say, you had to walk around in camp, grab the armor you wanted to put on your companion, have him/her hold up his/her arms while you play a minigame to help him/her with the straps, that would be screwing things up on purpose.  :razz:
 
Splintert said:
It doesn't matter whether they allegedly created the bad UI on purpose to try to have some realism or immersion, you're still claiming they did it on purpose.
But it does matter, because it's the purpose that's different. They didn't make it that way to make it bad, they made it that way to make it realistic (or something, I don't even care). The badness is just a necessary consequence of it. By your logic there's no difference between murder and manslaughter. Yes, the result is the same, but the intention is different.

IMO, the buttons were likely disabled due to some unforeseen bug or crash related to the way it was programmed. That's why edit mode is edit mode and not normal mode.
Except that I have never had those buttons cause a crash or a bug, and neither have I ever heard of anyone's game crashing or bugging out because of them. At this point I invoke Occam's Razor and claim my explanation as preferable on its basis.

MadocComadrin said:
Now, if they had made so say, you had to walk around in camp, grab the armor you wanted to put on your companion, have him/her hold up his/her arms while you play a minigame to help him/her with the straps, that would be screwing things up on purpose.  :razz:
Oddly enough, I find that idea almost appealing. Have you heard of Receiver? It's a first person shooter made as part of some kind of 7-day challenge or something by the guys making Overgrowth. The point is, it's a first person shooter that has only one gun in it, and it takes eight buttons to operate. It works like an actual gun, you can control every part of it. You don't just press R and watch a reload animation, you have to eject the magazine, holster the gun, put bullets in the magazine one by one, pull the gun out, put the magazine back in, and release the slide. And you know what? Doing that is amazingly fun. I also liked Trespasser, where you didn't pick up things simply by walking over them, you had to actually extend your noodle-arm into the game world to grab guns and other objects. I kinda wish more games were like that.
Here's somebody's blog post that explains the whole idea in more detail: http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/street-rod-game-design-and-usability/
link above said:
You see you car in a garage, just like in Need for Speed. You click on the newspaper to see the page with second hand newspaper adverts. Basicly, it is a menu like in Need for Speed but it looks like a newspaper. Also, just like in a real newspaper, not all parts are always avalible and some parts are in a bad condition. You can only buy what is there. Also, the parts are actual engine parts and you have to understand which one fits to your car and if it makes it faster or not. The game doesn’t help you with that. You click on an advert to buy the part, but it is not installed yet.

The fun begins now. When you click on the hood of you car, you can see the engine. The mouse cursor turns into a wrench. You can then proceed to disassemble the engine by clicking a few times on the screws that hold the engine parts in place. After you unscrewed and removed the old part, you can put in the new part and screw it back on.

The screws are red so it is easier to find them. I guess you can call that usability.

My point is that from a standpoint of usability, this is a catastrophe. The whole process just takes time and doesn’t really do anything. You have to even needlessly click on each screw a few times while it would be much faster if you could click just once or at least hold the mouse button. The Need for Speed way is much more user friendly since it simplifies the process to just selecting parts from a menu.

Or is it? You see, usability is not the point here. A game doesn’t do anything specific. You don’t really have a task you can optimize the interface for. So instead of optimising the process of changing parts, Street Rod makes it very prominent part of the game. It adresses the senses and the emotions of the user. It tries at least to capture a bit of the how it is to be a mechanic and tune up a car.
I think that's kinda what TW were going for when they decided that you had to talk to each NPC in order to access their inventory or stats screen. The problem is that Street Rod (which is the game discussed in the blog) and Receiver require the player to exert some effort to do a task that also requires effort in the real world. Not so in M&B. In reality you don't need to enter a special pocket dimension disconnected from normal spacetime in order to check someone's inventory. You don't stop your mercenary army and go "show me your things". You don't even stop, you just turn to the guy riding alongside you, you see what he's wearing, and you go "oh by the way, Borcha, throw that old shield away and take the new one we found after the last battle". Yes, you do the same thing you would in real life, you talk to them to tell them to change gear, but it's much more of a hassle than in reality. M&B requires effort to do something that should be effortless.
 
I would like to be able to actually build my own city/town/castle in a 3D scene where I select the building type, it gives me a 3D model of it, and I place said building wherever I wanted. The same system could also be used instead for fief improvements. It would all depend on if you had the correct materials, the right foundation, etc.
 
Chivalry101 said:
I would like to be able to actually build my own city/town/castle in a 3D scene where I select the building type, it gives me a 3D model of it, and I place said building wherever I wanted. The same system could also be used instead for fief improvements. It would all depend on if you had the correct materials, the right foundation, etc.

Sounds like a lot of work for what will be not only not what the game is about buy also very little gain.
 
I would love to see a intro like the last one in Warband but maybe in a siege defence or something like that, I want to be blown away when I first play Mount&Blade 2 !! :twisted:
 
Sir Hitson Winsler said:
Chivalry101 said:
I would like to be able to actually build my own city/town/castle in a 3D scene where I select the building type, it gives me a 3D model of it, and I place said building wherever I wanted. The same system could also be used instead for fief improvements. It would all depend on if you had the correct materials, the right foundation, etc.

Sounds like a lot of work for what will be not only not what the game is about buy also very little gain.
Just implement the scene maker into the singleplayer :eek:
 
Chivalry101 said:
I would like to be able to actually build my own city/town/castle in a 3D scene where I select the building type, it gives me a 3D model of it, and I place said building wherever I wanted. The same system could also be used instead for fief improvements. It would all depend on if you had the correct materials, the right foundation, etc.

This. They should do it like in Assassins Creed II, where you could improve your village. In M&B II they should let you do it in your villages and cities, it would be really nice to see them flourish as you get wealthier, it would give life to them. This should work the other way around too, looted villages, besieged settlements, struggling cities should have poorer buildings and diminished size compared to settlements not afflicted by war, plague, and famine.
 
Sir Hitson Winsler said:
Sounds like a lot of work for what will be not only not what the game is about buy also very little gain.
I don't know about that. Being able to actually design your castle might be interesting. It could turn into a sort of tower defense minigame, trying to design the best castle to withstand enemy assaults. Not that I think it's going to happen in M&B2, nor would I necessarily want that in my M&B, but it's something to think about.
 
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