Member-Moderator Interaction

[Catholic]

It's likely best that there is a place to discuss how interaction between members and moderators should occur that isn't just closed off to moderators. I have long admired Taleworlds for being a place where everyone is able to speak their mind, whether it is moderators calling users idiots or if it is users questioning the decisions of moderators. Closing off the "Re: Who are these banned/muted/warned people?" threads and the "Forum Moderator Feedback" threads are actions which will alter the nature of this forum, for better or worse, and it is best that this is open to general discussion. While there is an e-mail address listed to which opinions and comments can be sent, a single e-mail address does not particularly facilitate a free and open discussion where different viewpoints can be shared. As a result, I'd like to request that this thread not be locked - it serves a purpose that an e-mail does not, and it will also grant a better idea of what the community's views are.



With that in mind, I feel as though the "Who are these banned/warned/muted" thread in particular served a very necessary purpose. While some individuals abused the thread in order to either criticize the moderation team without understanding the underlying reasons behind their decisions or simply spammed the thread, both of which I imagine were quite irritating, with the lack of a thread in which the complaining is localized you will probably find the *****ing spread out all over the forum instead. It is a necessary evil which granted the community an ability to get a sense of transparency of how moderation operates at the cost of hostility, a hostility which will likely be diffused throughout the forum if the thread is not re-opened.

While some individual members complaining about moderation processes were likely annoying, they did not actually cause a harm to the forum as a whole. The Taleworlds member base tends to be loyal and grateful to its moderation team, as I certainly am, and while disagreements will occur it is unheard of that actual drama occurs due to the result of a moderation decision. There are a few exceptions to this rule - notably Goker's loss of moderatorship - but those exceptions were rather flagrant abuses, usually on the part of Taleworlds rather than the moderation team. In contrast, I believe there is an actual harm done to the forum if transparency is lost and all moderator decisions are hidden behind a closed subforum, and it hurts the spirit of the community that I have grown to admire.

With that in mind, I believe it is best that all three recently closed threads are reopened, particularly the longstanding "Who are these banned/warned/muted people?" thread.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

Granted as the Scandinavian moderator I'm not really the target of much critique (mostly because I rule with an iron fist), but I liked the transparency of having the aforementioned threads.



IF the threads are opened again, I do however think that:

a) there needs to be a clear format of expressing concern with moderation (sort of similar to how at the university level there is a clear, established way of disputing an exam, usually involving a certain "waiting period" and rules regarding tone/not being a tool). It should be less people going "Oi, ******* moderator/administrator, that was a bull**** warning and you should suck my **** because you are a terrible person" and more of a constructive attempt at discussing a moderation.

b) the spam/jokes in these threads need to stop, I know that I've probably posted something silly/spammy in those threads, but part of the problem is that no one took them seriously 90%

 

[Catholic]

I wouldn't object to a "If you post a joke or comment that isn't specifically asking about why a mute/warning/ban occurred, you will get hit with a warning every time" rule.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

As a result, I'd like to request that this thread not be locked - it serves a purpose that an e-mail does not, and it will also grant a better idea of what the community's views are.

The BMW threads no longer have anything to do with "the community's" views --- unless the meaning of "community" has been completely redefined to a definition which means "about twenty or thirty members off off-topic". It is exceedingly rare for on-topic people to enquire here (they who form the majority of the forum, believe it or not) and also as rare for speakers on the other-language board to do the same.

The sad fact is, moderators now spend more time explaining their position/explaining their actions and the actions of fellow moderators, than they do moderating.

The nature of the forum has also changed. It used to be a place where the rules were fast and loose and the most random of crap could get you muted or banned. Now we have a very comprehensive list of rules so there is little room for interpretation.

with the lack of a thread in which the complaining is localized you will probably find the *****ing spread out all over the forum instead.

Doubtful. The rest of the forum actually runs very smoothly.

It is a necessary evil which granted the community an ability to get a sense of transparency of how moderation operates at the cost of hostility, a hostility which will likely be diffused throughout the forum if the thread is not re-opened.

Again, "diffused throughout the forum" is a considerable piece of hyperbole. Maybe it will diffuse through the "What Pissed You Off Today?" thread in Fun Stuff but as mentioned, it's very rare for the rest of the forum to use these threads -- indeed, the majority of on-topic and other language members tend to actually PM moderators first, and we generally handle enquiries in this manner. As well, the new email address is getting a lot of actual and genuine activity from people actually and genuinely enquiring (and appealing) their warns/mutes. It definitely works.

In contrast, I believe there is an actual harm done to the forum if transparency is lost and all moderator decisions are hidden behind a closed subforum, and it hurts the spirit of the community that I have grown to admire.

Actions aren't hidden; anybody is free to use the email address.

We're keeping the threads closed for now, to trial how it works.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Granted as the Scandinavian moderator I'm not really the target of much critique (mostly because I rule with an iron fist), but I liked the transparency of having the aforementioned threads.

This has nothing to do with critique. We don't mind that.

It's the endless and constant repetition and time taken up explaining every. Single. Tiny. Little. Thing. We. Do.

I'm going to be honest here; even if the threads (or some new incarnation of them) are eventually reopened, I'm not going to respond in them. I'm not even going to look at them. I don't have time. If somebody PMs/emails me and asks me to elaborate on or look into their warn/mute/ban, I'll happily do it. But I don't have time to wade through the ****. And most of it, these days, is ****.

 

[Splintert]

Perhaps more manpower would help. The forum will become quite a bit more active with the release of Bannerlord, and the moderation team seems to be rather occupied as is. With the expansion of the rules and massive influx of people who don't know how the forum operates... it's a recipe for a lot of fun.

 

[Úlfheðinn]

It's ok, I'm working on creating a Brutus/Llandy hybrid through the wonders of cloning.

I'm calling it Project Lord Pharaoh BruLla.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Perhaps more manpower would help. The forum will become quite a bit more active with the release of Bannerlord, and the moderation team seems to be rather occupied as is.

We've already discussed more moderators for when Bannerlord comes out, so that will definitely help. But right now, we've got all the moderators we need. Moderating this place right now is not particularly difficult (especially since the NW board has quietened down with the departure of FSE) -- these BMW-related threads actually take up more moderator time than moderating itself. And that's just wrong.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

what if there was some sort of banlog, perhaps automated? saves you having to interact, saves time on the mail, ensures mails can't be missed, is transparent and efficient.

 

[Jace]

It's ok, I'm working on creating a Brutus/Llandy hybrid through the wonders of cloning.

I'm calling it Project Lord Pharaoh BruLla.

Tryin' to prove a point? Took until reply #6 until the off-topic non-content posts started to show up.



Monty: You mean something like they have over at SomethingAwful?

Spoiler: Example

"The following is a list of banned users and the reason they were banned. Click on the ban type in the "Type" column to view the post the user was banned for."

Wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility to implement, but might be that TW doesn't want to be THAT transparent, or it might be more work than it really is worth. Might require ****ing around with databases, if not writing such a mod from scratch.

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

what if there was some sort of banlog, perhaps automated? saves you having to interact, saves time on the mail, ensures mails can't be missed, is transparent and efficient.

There is a ban log, which all mods/admins have access to.

In fact, the ban log states exactly the same as the ban messages we send out to banned/warned/muted people. It would take about 10 seconds to post this in the BMW thread. The issue is it rarely ends there. People feel the need to have a 5 page debate about everything. It's usually unnecessary.

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

J, something like that yeah.


And yeah, Llandy, I know. That's kinda why I suggested it. Cause being a banlog would remove the "people *****ing about it" aspect, since it's not a thread they can talk in?

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

The problem arises in that not everybody may want their ban/mute/warn reasons publicised. And most people don't really need to know why it happens. I doubt Janus could give access to it without some major reworking, but maybe the new SMF coming out "soon" will better support this.

 

[Temuzu]

I dont think I've ever seen anyone being denied an answer when they asked why someone got B/M/W. Apart from the "self-requested", which is fine and all. In the future, you could just make your punishment messages a bit less snarky, and a bit more on-the-point.

Besides, so what if you publicize the reason for punishment? What are they going to do, sue Taleworlds?

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

In the future, you could just make your punishment messages a bit less snarky, and a bit more on-the-point.

I can't speak for all moderators/admins, but we do actually have a bank of template warning messages, and I use these 90% of the time because it's faster and easier than typing out a new message every time. Almost every template follows the format of:

<here's the rule you broke>
<here's the link to the post you broke the rule in>
<please cease these activities and abide by the forum rules blah blah blah>

I don't really know how much more on-point it can get.

Besides, so what if you publicize the reason for punishment? What are they going to do, sue Taleworlds?

Then let me phrase it another way: it really isn't any of your business, or anybody else's business, why somebody has been warned, muted or banned. Explanations have been offered in the past in the hopes of clarifying and educating users in what NOT to do/say around here, but that was from a time when the rules were less comprehensive and more open to interpretation by the individual mods/admins than they are now.

Oh look, I'm repeating myself again. Yay 

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

Then let me phrase it another way: it really isn't any of your business, or anybody else's business, why somebody has been warned, muted or banned.

Why?

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Then let me phrase it another way: it really isn't any of your business, or anybody else's business, why somebody has been warned, muted or banned.

Why?

Ex?

 

[Antoine de Saint-Exupéry]

Excuse me?

 

[Pharaoh Llandy]

Aaaanyway, before this devolves into an off-topic spamfest of people phonetically spelling out the alphabet, I'm going to close it.

Thank you, Eternal, for your initial input; you raise some good points which we'll discuss and take into consideration. Unless Magorian decides to come along and chip in I doubt we'll see anybody raise those points as eloquently as you. There are a few "drama" incidents revolving around moderator actions/decisions which you're likely not aware of, specifically because we try very hard to keep such matters from spilling out into the forum and creating a mess, so I can understand why you believe that upkeeping those threads has been a simple and straightforward matter and why you might feel the closure of those threads is counterproductive.

If my fellow mods/admins are in agreement, we'll have a three month trial of keeping the BMW threads closed, to evaluate what sort of impact this has on the community. After three months we'll re-open this thread and ask for further input/suggestions/feedback. If I forget to reopen this thread (and I will forget), please remind me.

In the interim, anyone with a burning desire to discuss their bans/warns/mutes can do so via the email addresses listed in the rules. Turkish users may prefer to use the Turkish address, but may use the English one if they are more comfortable doing so.

Edit: Almost forgot, we'll also consult with Janus about whether the new forum version (when it eventually reaches us) might allow for some sort of auto-logging of mutes/warns, and whether it would be feasible (or even necessary) for standard user accounts to access this information.