Map Copyright?

[Namakan]

If people create the scene 1 to 1 from the original, is that forbidden?

Don't be ridiculous.

Using other people's scenes without their consent is a big no-no.

Thank you for valueable contribution to this discussion.

Your answer wasn't any better, was it? Why don't you answer to Bridge Trolls latest post instead? I'd be interested in that...

Also,

Spoiler

It's beyond me how anyone can think it's ok to use someone else's creation(s) when they have specifically said that they don't want you to and you have no right to claim it as yours(e.g. you paid for it)...

And

Spoiler

 

[Arthur_Pendragon]

When the administration of your server contacted us regarding one of our customers using your maps, we asked them to file an official abuse report. That requires the filing party to use some personal details like name, email, address etc. I was refused and threatened to be yet again contacted by Taleworlds and that bad things would happen. We are required not only by our own Terms of Service to collect this data from the party that is filing the report, but also legally.

If you want to start claiming any sort of copyright legally, it might be a good idea to start including a license (CC, PB etc...) inside of the actual file also stating who the creator is, because right now anyone can claim to be the owner of a scene and nobody knows who it actually is.



And since we are posting screenshots, I will just leave this here

Captain conner i spoke to you the other day and you seem like a nice guy, but your coming in here and treating this as a business. Like i said before its a matter of respecting your community, If you are told to take off a scene you don't own, You don't get to ask why. You simply take it off because Its the right thing to do. I honestly don't know when this became a problem. Throughout the community we have had many fights and battles break out between people, Yet at the end of the day there was a fine line you never crossed. I guess those days are long gone. Back in my day people would of even gone as far as boycotting your server. Back then the discussions that took place on here had a real impact on servers and there were many veterans that the community respected that had a lot of influence over which servers were being played.

 

[GloVine]

TL;DR.. end result.. if its not your map, or you do not have permission using it.. don't.

Don't be a ****, ******* or anything in between.. pretty simple. Stop being lazy and make your own or get permission to use it. So many maps out there.

 

[Jesse | Oasis-Hosting.net]

Captain conner i spoke to you the other day and you seem like a nice guy, but your coming in here and treating this as a business.

This isn't about anything personal. So don't make it personal.


I never said that creators can not defend what they made, what I am saying is that you can not, in any way, call this copyright. What I am also saying is that the usage of the so-called "copyright" is used only to easily get rid of the competition. Why else are no other EU servers allowed to use the maps, but any other server in any other region are? I have asked that question several times, but have failed to get a valid answer. Speaking of morality in this discussion. If you are only able to compete because of what maps you have, you may need to start looking at improving other aspects of your community.

We will gladly respect creators who have copyright on their work and spot unauthorised usage. Feel free to contact me anytime if you suspect anything like this happening related to a customer of ours.

I agree maps are a lot of work and never denied it, but the perspective what a .scn file is actually - it is nothing but integers.

Someone had to arrange the information contained in the file. It's the same music only being made up of notes, but together they form a tune. If you meet the proper requirements, you can certainly claim copyright over it.

 

[Bridge_Troll]

I don't believe that the circumstances on why or how a creator claims copyright over his own works is relevant. If you would depend copyright on the reason on why he is claiming it(Like why only EU servers and not NA), you could always argue about it. But that is not the case, because the reason does not change who originally created it. That's what you have to understand. And also, even without a license, copyright does exist.

For instance: Take a book and put it on your website. The creator complaints because he only wanted it on his website since he has exclusive rights to make a profit of his own work(included in copyright). Now you start to argue "I don't agree, I want it more than you". Will this now erase any sort of copyright because you want him to state a reason? No, because the reason on why you have violated the copyright is irrelevant to the claims of the original author.

About eradicating competition by using copyright claims. Yes, that's what competition includes, a struggle to be ahead of someone who offers the same. If you have maps that were created for your server by players from this particular server and the competing server just uses them without permission or even asking, what do you think the reaction is. A hug and a warm handshake? Of course we will claim our own maps. You have every right to be a competitor, but then at least be an original one and not a copycat.


You can argue and try to defend your position or reason on why you were using other peoples stuff without their permission or even against their will, but that will ultimately not change whos work it is and who created it. I mean you HAVE to agree on that, it's a fact.

This will also mean that if someone can proof that he is the original creator of something and you can clearly see it and recognize it, like that it is a map of Dekkers, would you still use it even tho Dekkers wanted you not to?

In addition, breaking down done work into it's basic parts to give an image of inexistent effort is a an illusionary way to try and dilute the actual work behind it as you can always use this reasoning. How many hours of programming and debbuging did your scripts take Illuminati? Oh it's just some bytecode in the end when loaded into memory? Don't worry about it, the system does it all for you so it's not that much work, is it? That is not going to work.

If you finally accept the fact that free of charge does not mean you can do what you want with it and that eventho files are only sequences of integers,strings,floats etc. there is still work behind it, we can take a big step ahead and start communicating with the actual creators.

By now you still circumvent around asking the original map creators for permission. Or have you asked Dekkers for example once at all?

If we would finally get to an even consensus on how to treat the work others have created, be it scripts, maps, backend systems etc. for M&B we could actually communicate on an even level.

 

[Duh]

Is map copyrights/map permissions valid reasons to forbid the usage for servers?

The reason I ask, is, Dekkers and Avenger forbid the usage of their maps for other PW servers.
One customer, is using one of those maps, even tho he is forbidden to use it.

If he isn't removing it, is it my job as in the hoster, to remove it?

The short answer is - Yes.

The long answer is that (1) we consider the use of assets without permission a breach of our forum rules and principles. A creator may decide who gets to use his creations regardless of his underlying motivations. This is true for downloadable modifications as much as it is true for servers with unique content. There is also no need for long legal discussions, because (2) we consider the price of admission for commercial ventures to this forum to be the support of our rules and principles to the best of an actor's ability. Should a service/product provider fail to adhere to our interpretation of these matters, we may remove the services and/or the provider from the forum. The general policy looks something likes this:

1. The parties in conflict should try to resolve their issues themselves.
2. If that proves impossible and we consider an action in conflict with our rules, we can ask the server owner and/or host to rectify the situation.
3. If she/he fails to do so and we deem the offense significant enough, we can remove the offers (and potentially him/her) from the forum.

Given the broad range of possibilities regarding the issuing and revoking of permissions, we have been discussing additional guidelines for a while now and will engage the community on them in the near future.

Spoiler: For reference - Current Rules/Principles

Modding
If you are considering joining our modding community, you should take note of the following; Many people here like to share and provide others with resources (marked [OSP]), but if you wish to include their work in your modification, you are required to credit them. Most OSPs can be used on this basis, but there are some that may ask you to contact the author (among other things) in order to gain permission. This is clarified in the opening post of the OSP (which are found in The Forge) and it is your responsibility to ensure that you have permission and provide proper credit for the resources that you use. It should also be clear that you cannot simply take things from other mods and use them in your own modification unless you have gained permission from the respective mod authors. Once you have permission, it cannot be redacted on a whim.

Should you lack permission for content and still offer it via download on this forum or another platform, it will be considered theft and result in your ban from the TaleWorlds forum.

I will also note that it is in everyone's best interest to conduct business in a credible, honest, transparent and customer/community-friendly manner. If you are uncertain about whether or not something is allowed, if you think there is a grey-zone that you could exploit or if you are simply betting on nobody catching you... don't do it. You will be the EA of this community and cause the total prohibition of commercial ventures on this forum (from actual sales to patreon based projects). Rest assured that this is not some far-off doomsday scenario. There is a real chance of this happening if drama continues and TW decides that it's just not worth it.

 

[domipoppe]

Is map copyrights/map permissions valid reasons to forbid the usage for servers?

The reason I ask, is, Dekkers and Avenger forbid the usage of their maps for other PW servers.
One customer, is using one of those maps, even tho he is forbidden to use it.

If he isn't removing it, is it my job as in the hoster, to remove it?

The short answer is - Yes.

The long answer is that (1) we consider the use of assets without permission a breach of our forum rules and principles. A creator may decide who gets to use his creations regardless of his underlying motivations. This is true for downloadable modifications as much as it is true for servers with unique content. There is also no need for long legal discussions, because (2) we consider the price of admission for commercial ventures to this forum to be the support of our rules and principles to the best of an actor's ability. Should a service/product provider fail to adhere to our interpretation of these matters, we may remove the services and/or the provider from the forum. The general policy looks something likes this:

1. The parties in conflict should try to resolve their issues themselves.
2. If that proves impossible and we consider an action in conflict with our rules, we can ask the server owner and/or host to rectify the situation.
3. If she/he fails to do so and we deem the offense significant enough, we can remove the offers (and potentially him/her) from the forum.

Given the broad range of possibilities regarding the issuing and revoking of permissions, we have been discussing additional guidelines for a while now and will engage the community on them in the near future.

Spoiler: For reference - Current Rules/Principles

Modding
If you are considering joining our modding community, you should take note of the following; Many people here like to share and provide others with resources (marked [OSP]), but if you wish to include their work in your modification, you are required to credit them. Most OSPs can be used on this basis, but there are some that may ask you to contact the author (among other things) in order to gain permission. This is clarified in the opening post of the OSP (which are found in The Forge) and it is your responsibility to ensure that you have permission and provide proper credit for the resources that you use. It should also be clear that you cannot simply take things from other mods and use them in your own modification unless you have gained permission from the respective mod authors. Once you have permission, it cannot be redacted on a whim.

Should you lack permission for content and still offer it via download on this forum or another platform, it will be considered theft and result in your ban from the TaleWorlds forum.

I will also note that it is in everyone's best interest to conduct business in a credible, honest, transparent and customer/community-friendly manner. If you are uncertain about whether or not something is allowed, if you think there is a grey-zone that you could exploit or if you are simply betting on nobody catching you... don't do it. You will be the EA of this community and cause the total prohibition of commercial ventures on this forum (from actual sales to patreon based projects). Rest assured that this is not some far-off doomsday scenario. There is a real chance of this happening if drama continues and TW decides that it's just not worth it.

Alright, services hosted by King Solutions will stick to that.
Thank's for clarifying.

Just for hands up, EU_Dominion is not hosted by King Solutions anymore since they changed to a location we do not offer. So please do not disturb me with it anymore.

 

[Duh]

Thank's for clarifying.

Just for hands up, EU_Dominion is not hosted by King Solutions anymore since they changed to a location we do not offer. So please do not disturb me with it anymore.

I believe further clarification is in order.

As long as you remain affiliated with EU_Dominion in any way and they continue to use assets without permission, we may remove any and all of your services and/or you from the forum. The initial inquiry was related to server hosting, which is why our response focused on financial ventures. It should be clear, however, that non-commercial ventures that use stolen assets are not and have never been welcome here either. This means that even if you decided to "co-own, manage and keep it [EU_Dominion] running" for free going forward... that would not resolve the issue.

 

[domipoppe]

Thank's for clarifying.

Just for hands up, EU_Dominion is not hosted by King Solutions anymore since they changed to a location we do not offer. So please do not disturb me with it anymore.

I believe further clarification is in order.

As long as you remain affiliated with EU_Dominion in any way and they continue to use assets without permission, we may remove any and all of your services and/or you from the forum. The initial inquiry was related to server hosting, which is why our response focused on financial ventures. It should be clear, however, that non-commercial ventures that use stolen assets are not and have never been welcome here either. This means that even if you decided to "co-own, manage and keep it [EU_Dominion] running" for free going forward... that would not resolve the issue.

You got me wrong then. I don't control the server or the box. I'm not able to remove or change the map...

 

[Duh]

But you are a co-owner? You do provide administrative services and support? And you are being paid for that?

If so, you get to make a decision. Either you cut your ties with them (any and all affiliation, especially financially) or we will discuss and employ appropriate measures. Alternatively, you could ask whoever is able to change the map selection... to do so.

 

[Bridge_Troll]

If you are the co-owner but have no administrative permissions over the server, which I hardly believe since you are "the man with the know how", you could at least then talk to your partner in crime Henry. Just kidding, but I think its well about time that you communicate with your other server owner and bring this matter to his attention.

 

[Dejan]

You're acting as if being "just a driver" in a bank heist dismisses you of any guilt in regards to the bank robbery. I would go even further, you're the guy that's breaking the front doors, entering the code to the safe and driving the van. Your "co-owner" Henry is just a bystander watching you do everything.

You trying to make it look like you have no ties with the server is as absurd as it is ridiculous. Anyways, I'll take it to PM's with TW as you continue with your charade.

 

[Arthur_Pendragon]

They still haven't switched scene?

What a disgrace to the PW community and the talesworld community. Never in my years here have i seen something like this.

 

[domipoppe]

Henry is controlling the server and stuff which happens to it.
It's not in my interest to break in the system to remove the map (which I'm not allowed to or he doesn't want to).

Either that, the current map is originally made by Mike but modified by Avenger & Dekkers.
So still, Mike has the copyright on it, not them, from what I can read out of past posts.

 

[Duh]

Mike has the rights on the original work, not derivatives. Naturally, derivatives are only allowed if permission for their creation was given by the original creator.

Henry is controlling the server and stuff which happens to it.
It's not in my interest to break in the system to remove the map (which I'm not allowed to or he doesn't want to).

So you will not be cutting ties nor will Henry remove the map? Is that your statement to the moderation and TW?

Aside from the current issue, it has also been brought to my attention that EU_Dominion is now tying donations to ingame benefits. This is not permitted by TW and it is likely that they will take legal actions against anyone who goes down such a route.

 

[Bridge_Troll]

...
Aside from the current issue, it has also been brought to my attention that EU_Dominion is now tying donations to ingame benefits. This is not permitted by TW and it is likely that they will take legal actions against anyone who goes down such a route.

I have a quick question for furthur projects if you allow, since this seems to be a good opportunity to ask someone competent in charge.
If you say benefits, I assume you only mean that someone is able to directly buy an advantage over every other player that does not posses this kind of bought content.(unlimited resources, double health, no armor loss after respawn)

Would you consider giving donators benefits of cosmetic nature as a violation as well?

I would like to see that there is no pay2win however servers should be able to give an incentive to their players so they donate and receive something special in exchange.

For instance items that do not affect skill or time required actions in-game, like combat or resource farming. That would be something like dices, darts, lute (any "pointless" item), clothing that has close to 0 armor rating(peasent clothing), herding animals that are normally not rideable etc. you get the gist.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Duh]

I have a quick question for furthur projects if you allow, since this seems to be a good opportunity to ask someone competent in charge.
If you say benefits, I assume you only mean that someone is able to directly buy an advantage over every other player that does not posses this kind of bought content.

Yes. Like buying (by "donating") weapons, armor, "gold" on a website and receiving them as a bonus ingame.

Would you consider giving donators benefits of cosmetic nature as a violation as well?

Not currently. Be aware that TW may always overrule this statement.

I would like to see that there is no pay2win however servers should be able to give an incentive to their players so they donate and receive something special in exchange.

That is TW's call. Currently you may not tie donations or payments to download links for playable modules (in contrast to scripts/external tools), server access or tangible gameplay benefits.

 

[domipoppe]

Mike has the rights on the original work, not derivatives. Naturally, derivatives are only allowed if permission for their creation was given by the original creator.

Henry is controlling the server and stuff which happens to it.
It's not in my interest to break in the system to remove the map (which I'm not allowed to or he doesn't want to).

So you will not be cutting ties nor will Henry remove the map? Is that your statement to the moderation and TW?

Aside from the current issue, it has also been brought to my attention that EU_Dominion is now tying donations to ingame benefits. This is not permitted by TW and it is likely that they will take legal actions against anyone who goes down such a route.

No, I'm not cutting ties with him.
Because: I host the forums/website, manage the design. (What I am getting directly paid for).
Because: I provide the scripts, the admin panel. (What I get paid for).
Because: I enjoy playing on a new and friendly server. (That's why I love it).
Because: I love to manage communities. (Which I am not getting paid for).
Because: I love admining & supporting other admins.
Because: I enjoy to deliver the community a not biased and community friendly environment which wasn't existing for years.
Because: We give PW a new lifetime till Bannerlord.

Keep in mind: I am not in power or control of the map or the server bow.

And if I am getting banned for that or removed from the forums, I can live with that.

Also: The Donations are WIP, and were a copy & paste. They modify still it's released. They won't give unfair benefits towards players like gold.
We give them the possibility to spawn a pet for example, which can be bought for IG gold as well. Or give them access to housing maybe, which can be bought with IG gold as well. It's not unfair, cause without donating, you can get it as well. If that's still against TW-Eula you can contact me through Steam, my website or PM on here.
Here you can watch the current state of it: https://www.eu-dominion.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=187&p=947#p947

If it's that immersive wrong against TW-Eula I would like to provide to you personally evidence of what Phoenix did.

If I am getting banned for this, I can live with it.
If my posts get removed, I can actually live with it as well.
Beiträge: 753
Registriert: Juli 24, 2010, 02:10:10 Vormittag
Not being on here, is fine for me. It would just be a mess, for what I all did in the past, in sense of coding, helping and modding, to be banned because such a drama of which I don't really have power on. Cause I don't want to lose this good and new community for this reason. If I would leave, it probably would have hard times or die. So I stay.
It would only change my mind on all of this, and I maybe won't mod or script for Bannerlord then except one self-made community. Like really, just let the TW moderation give a final decision on which I can call my final call then. 

http://www.moddb.com/members/illuminatimv/mods

 

[Rosslington]

Mike has the rights on the original work, not derivatives. Naturally, derivatives are only allowed if permission for their creation was given by the original creator.

Henry is controlling the server and stuff which happens to it.
It's not in my interest to break in the system to remove the map (which I'm not allowed to or he doesn't want to).

So you will not be cutting ties nor will Henry remove the map? Is that your statement to the moderation and TW?

Aside from the current issue, it has also been brought to my attention that EU_Dominion is now tying donations to ingame benefits. This is not permitted by TW and it is likely that they will take legal actions against anyone who goes down such a route.

You might want to look into PW_Phoenix's donation perks. It's not game breaking but players still get an advantage from donating. Also, if Avenger and Dekkers can claim the map as their own because they modified it, surely Illuminati can just modify it himself and then claim it as his own? Assuming he got permission from Mike that is. Therefore, resolving the issue.

 

[Bridge_Troll]

So you do not host the server nor have any administrative power over the server, but you are still the one who takes in and handles the donations? Or did Henry tell you to do the donation list?

Instead of being so stubborn, how about you get Henry here and let him see what is going on. It seems you and your co owner have zero communication. While you do all the work and he just has the server and manages the maps. Why is that?

I don't want to step on your toes, but this is getting very strange and shady. Displaying your achievements should not give you immunity to rule infringements. It's nice that you enrich this community but it does not elevate you over other peoples rights.

Why is it impossible that you and your co-owner come to a consensus which stance you will represent regarding copyrighted material?

You might want to look into PW_Phoenix's donation perks. It's not game breaking but players still get an advantage from donating. Also, if Avenger and Dekkers can claim the map as their own because they modified it, surely Illuminati can just modify it himself and then claim it as his own? Assuming he got permission from Mike that is. Therefore, resolving the issue.

Phoenix's had banklimit increase for donations. Also I'm pretty sure most maps actually used on Phoenix were completely self made from scratch by Avenger, Dekkers, Proton, Ted and Scorp.

But yes, I agree, if he gets the original map with permission and modifies it, why not, would save everyone the drama.